Open 164 - Bird 7P (Over) before 836

[hiphop]

now that we've heard from far_cry I don't like the case hiphop has desperately strung together

Vote: hiphop

Desperately? It makes sense to me.

[hohum]

it doesn't make sense to me though, and you're going to need a consensus to bring a far_cry lynch about so "it makes sense to me" is not a valid argument.

You've pointedly refused to go into any details so far, you've only laid out your case from a 20,000 mile view.

[hiphop]

it doesn't make sense to me though, and you're going to need a consensus to bring a far_cry lynch about so "it makes sense to me" is not a valid argument.

You've pointedly refused to go into any details so far, you've only laid out your case from a 20,000 mile view.

I gave the best information that was available of any of the three supposedly scum players left. Would you rather of had me say, "I have nothing. What should we do?" I gave my reason as to why Far_Cry is scum.

[hohum]

Yes I would certainly rather you say "I don't know what to do next" if (by your own admission now) you're unsure of your case. That at least is the pro-town thing to do. Instead you'd rather manufacture suspicion.

[VP Baltar]

hohum, what do you think of hiphop's interactions with zwet yesterday? Do they appear to be those of a scum buddy?

[hohum]

Baltar: the only thing I picked up from yesterday about hiphop and zwet yesterday is that hiphop very early on was building a case on both zwet and far_cry.

So he's been on this kick for a while now. for him to have not much other than "HE'S SCUM LULZ TRUST ME GUYZ" means he's either trying too hard and coming up with nothing or he just doesn't know any better.

Evryone in thread at some point or another had some sort of negative interaction with zwet, so trying to extrapolate alignment based on his wagon won't be helpful.

[VP Baltar]

But hiphop was the most consistent in arguing for zwet's lynch, imo.

[hohum]

that doesn't clear him any more than it clears either of us for hopping into zwet's wagon at the end of the day.

Who would you rather see lynched at this point?

[VP Baltar]

I'm not saying he's cleared by any means, but the interactions do seem genuine to me and not very likely to come from scum. I agree that his argument against Far Cry is less than stellar, but bad logic doesn't necessarily mean scum.

In terms of who I would like lynched, that's a tougher question since we obviously have a situation of someone bussing their partner. I need to look at both Far Cry and yourself in iso before I can reach any sort of a serious conclusion. If I absolutely had to chose though, based upon those last few pages in the day I just read, I would say that you're my lynch choice at this very moment.

[hohum]

@Baltar: your questions almost read like "we should trust hiphop because he guessed right"

[hohum]

I'll wait for your iso analysis before I comment, since I'm clearly one of your targets; however, if I were going to bus my scum partner meta and policy sure is a shitty reason.

[VP Baltar]

I assume you are talking about post 304. I dont see how you are getting that interpretation. I'm saying that if I was going to be looking at one of the two of Far Cry and hiphop based on their interactions with zwet yesterday, it would almost certainly be Far Cry (which is one reason I need to iso read him). You can't just disregard that we caught scum on day 1 because the conclusions you reach are going to be based on WIFOM.

Did you think hiphop was scummy yesterday or was his 'case' on Far Cry what really did it for you?

[hohum]

it's largely his case on farcry that's pissing me off.

I'm getting a little frustrated with you too because I've played with you before and I know that you know the value of pressure wagons. I really wanted to cook hiphop a bit today to see if he would boil over.

[VP Baltar]

meh. He was cooked yesterday for sure. I think we have enough information already to root out the scum without the need for wagoning for wagon's sake. Far Cry's absence says a lot to me as well. I'd like to hear a lot more from him in the near future.

Our dear old doc could chime in too since we know he's innocent and at least wouldn't have any ulterior motives to his posts.

[hohum]

You can't just disregard that we caught scum on day 1 because the conclusions you reach are going to be based on WIFOM.

I really really want you to think about what you just said. I'm not disregarding anything. I'm trying to scum hunt a little BECAUSE my conclusions all lead to WIFOM.

Would you rather I sat here and tried to build a weak case like hiphop?

[hohum]

look you're welcome to try and draw conclusions out of D1 if you want to but it's a mess to me. Perhaps your clarity of vision is better than mine. I'm open to suggestions right now. If you can convince me that something concrete can be extrapolated out of D1 then I'll go right along with you. In the mean time I'm going to try and generate fresh discussion.

[Far_Cry]

Yeah, cop should come out with his investigation as long as he didn't do something completely stupid like investigate brothernature. In fact, it might be best to do a popcorn mass claim to really put the pressure on the scum. Who is for and who is against this?

While I don't agree with everything hip hop said, I'm inclined to believe he is right about Far Cry. He seems like the most likely candidate (though hard bussing by hohum isn't out of the question).

Wait a second. Why would have investigating brothernature been a bad thing?

I thought it would be obvious. It is not what he did that leads me to suspect him, but what other people did.

To me there are four people that can be scum.
bn is obvious town. You lead the lynch for zwet, so I believe you are town.

Therefore it comes down to Far_Cry and Vp. Vp switched his vote in the final minutes of the day, to the scum. Therefore by elimination I believe Far_Cry is scum.

You're forgetting that scum could be have bussed his partner. Why? Becuase the only person alive who didn't vote for zwets is Brothernature. And brothernature is town.

You just answered your first question. If we know someone else is town we can narrow it down between two people.

As for your second question. I already explained that you must of bussed your partner.

I did not buss zwets. How are you so sure I did? Think about it this way: why would it be beneficial for me to get zwets lynched? I placed a vote on him because I thought he was scum (which he was.) You're trying to make everything sound so complicated, which it isin't

Also, I do believe your case on me is weak. It makes no sense.

And here's another question: if I were scum, why would I need to buss my zwets? He was not under pressure; I place the first vote on him. It seems to me you're just trying to find reasons to lynch me.

Exactly why you bussed zwet. He wasn’t under pressure, so it would be safe to put a vote there, without him being lynched. You could of left your vote there and when someone was ready to be lynched you can switch your vote.

But I never switched my vote, did I? I seriously thought zwets was scum, so I kept my vote. Tell me why zwets and I are connected (i.e. posts.)

In other words you're talking about a scenario that never happened. What you said would have been a valid suspicion last day; however, now its Day 2. Once again I never switched my vote, or ever wanted to do so to lynch someone else.

Brothernature is town, and I'm inclined to believe that hohum is town, too. Either VP or hiphop is scum.

Same conclusion I got, except that switch your name for mine.

Again, how are you so sure I'm scum? I want valid proof.

How soon people forget. Does post 266 ring a bell? I was at L-1. Does any of this sound familiar? Even I forgot this post. I remembered it right after I posted the post of the second time I had claimed.

What the hell are you talking about?

Anyways, hiphop is acting totally antitown. He's not helping at all. He's case on me is weak, with no evidence proof, etc. He is making everything way too complicated, and nothing he says makes sense.

Being more specific from earlier:

Did you breadcrumb your role?

I believe he did. I'm considering switching my vote.

I still want you to explain why brothernature breadcrumbing his vote (or so you believed) meant that you were going to switch your vote from zwet.


I did a reread of the last bit of yesterday to get a better feel of where we are at right now and what exactly happened to lead to zwet getting lynched. First, let me say that I think hiphop looks much more townish in hindsight of zwet flipping scum. hiphop was actively questioning him and questioning my neutral read on him.

Second, hiphop, you said this at the start of the day:

I believe it was Hohum, who turned Vp toward Zwet. Vp may have led the town, but it was because of Hohum that Zwet was lynched.

That's not actually true. Look back at page 11 and you will see hohum votes Far Cry after bn's claim and switches to zwet at the last minute only after I changed my vote. This could be a case of hohum buddying me and bussing his partner in the same post.

I believe I have this game cracked right now and it looks like hohum is the last scum, imo.

Also,

Far_Cry was the first vote on zwet.

he actually wasn't. You were the first vote, but a mod error in the vote count had him listed as first.

At first, I thought that bn simply breadcrummed his role. But when zwets turned up town, I knew he wasn't. I was considering changing my vote, but I decided to go against and use my gut instinct. Turns out that I was right.

To all those people that think I'm scum, let me ask you a question: why would I vote zwets, my partner? Give me a valid reason.

[brothernature]

At first, I thought that bn simply breadcrummed his role. But when zwets turned up town, I knew he wasn't. I was considering changing my vote, but I decided to go against and use my gut instinct. Turns out that I was right.

To all those people that think I'm scum, let me ask you a question: why would I vote zwets, my partner? Give me a valid reason.

What do you mean zwet turned up town? He was scum....And just because you were on a scum's wagon doesn't clear you. Everyone but me and PE were on the wagon, PE is dead, and I'm doc. So one of you were bussing. And I've seen people who'll defend the townies and buss like hell to appear town. So don't play that card.

[hiphop]

We must use the info that we have yesterday, because it is the only information that we have. We are still only one mislynch from lylo. Let’s use what we have. If you don’t like the info from yesterday look at what Far_Cry posted today.

To all those people that think I'm scum, let me ask you a question: why would I vote zwets, my partner? Give me a valid reason.

Why would VP vote his partner? Why would Hohum vote his partner? Why would I vote my partner? Somebody had to. Nobody has given a plausible reason yet. Yours and mine were the only ones early, when there wasn’t any pressure. That is why I suspect you the most. Maybe you voted to throw off suspicion. Maybe you did it, because you didn’t want to be seen fence sitting so close to the deadline. Maybe you did it because Vp told you to vote, and you wanted to vote for someone with a good reason and he was the best. Those are the only plausible reasons I can come up with.

If Hohum was scum he could have done it because of this reason.

A large part of my demotivation has to do with his presence in this game. I requested that this setup be run again and I was /in the game before he was. When I saw he signed up I asked him not to /in himself; however, he knows the mod IRL.

I just simply don't like him, for better or worse. He's an automatic policy lynch for me.

There's no reason other than meta that I prefer a zwet lynch to a hiphop lynch. My reads on hiphop are pretty null.

I actively dislike zwet, to the point that I don't really care if he flips town or not. He needs to be bounced out of this game.

unvote, vote zwet

If he is town this is his reason. If he is scum this is his reason.

Here is another reason why the cop should claim. If he waits until tomorrow, and we don’t lynch scum today, the scum could claim cop too. There is no proof either way. Then it would be down to what bn decides. Why leave it to chance? Now if scum decides to claim, we can lynch one today and the other tomorrow. It would be a sure thing. Besides I have it narrowed down between Far_Cry and Hohum as the cop anyways. You may think I am trying to out the cop, but I want the town to win.

Bn you beat me to it. I was going to ask that question.

[VP Baltar]

look you're welcome to try and draw conclusions out of D1 if you want to but it's a mess to me. Perhaps your clarity of vision is better than mine. I'm open to suggestions right now. If you can convince me that something concrete can be extrapolated out of D1 then I'll go right along with you. In the mean time I'm going to try and generate fresh discussion.

Well, the way Day 1 went down might not be the best, but I don't think it's useless at all. We know for sure that zwet was bussed by his partner. That's a fact. From there, I think it is going to be useful to look at everyone's interactions with zwet and their reasons for voting him/the way in which they voted him. Obviously there is a lot of WIFOM involved, but I'm of the opinion that if you look at whose vote has the most scum motivation behind it, you are likely to find his partner.

why would it be beneficial for me to get zwets lynched?

It happened, so this is a horrible defense. The obvious reason is to appear more town by lynching scum.

I placed a vote on him because I thought he was scum

orly? Cause if I remember correctly, you voted him for pressure. Why did you think he was scum again?

Anyways, hiphop is acting totally antitown. He's not helping at all. He's case on me is weak, with no evidence proof, etc. He is making everything way too complicated, and nothing he says makes sense.

Ok, so what is the simple approach here? I don't see any argument above for who you think is scum.

At first, I thought that bn simply breadcrummed his role. But when zwets turned up town, I knew he wasn't.

I don't understand what you are saying here. Zwet did not turn up town. I'm confused. you know what a breadcrumb is, correct?

@hiphop, what makes you so certain I'm not the cop. I don't think outting the role is the best idea right now.

[Sironigous]

Vote Count!

hohum
Far_Cry - (1) hiphop
VP Baltar
hiphop - (1) hohum
brothernature

Not voting: VP Baltar, brothernature, Far_Cry

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch!

Deadline for Day 2 - October 17, 2009 ~ 9:00 P.M. EST

[hiphop]

@hiphop, what makes you so certain I'm not the cop. I don't think outting the role is the best idea right now.

Than I won’t explain why I believe you are not the cop. I also don’t want bn to attempt to save the cop. If he does we will lose, because it would be him against the scum. He should only try to save one of the people who claimed vanilla.

I'm getting a little frustrated with you too because I've played with you before and I know that you know the value of pressure wagons. I really wanted to cook hiphop a bit today to see if he would boil over.

Did you not read the game right after the RVS? Zwet tried it, but eventually dropped the case.

[hohum]

Unvote, Vote VP

I don't like the fact that VP is actively shutting down potential wagons and he's had a full day now to deliver on the promise of an ISO analysis which he has yet to deliver on (though he has posted since he made that promise)

Seems like he'd rather stall the game rather than allow anyone to scum hunt.

Did you not read the game right after the RVS? Zwet tried it, but eventually dropped the case.

Yes I've read it and you've also done scummy things since then.

Do you believe that you should be off the hook now just because someone failed at their attempts to pressure you? If so, why?

[VP Baltar]

I'm not going to join a wagon for shitty reasons.

re: iso reads-I have other games I'm in and I had to work this afternoon. It happens.

In terms of scum hunting, how much do you feel you are you doing hohum?

[Far_Cry]

look you're welcome to try and draw conclusions out of D1 if you want to but it's a mess to me. Perhaps your clarity of vision is better than mine. I'm open to suggestions right now. If you can convince me that something concrete can be extrapolated out of D1 then I'll go right along with you. In the mean time I'm going to try and generate fresh discussion.

Well, the way Day 1 went down might not be the best, but I don't think it's useless at all. We know for sure that zwet was bussed by his partner. That's a fact. From there, I think it is going to be useful to look at everyone's interactions with zwet and their reasons for voting him/the way in which they voted him. Obviously there is a lot of WIFOM involved, but I'm of the opinion that if you look at whose vote has the most scum motivation behind it, you are likely to find his partner.

why would it be beneficial for me to get zwets lynched?

It happened, so this is a horrible defense. The obvious reason is to appear more town by lynching scum.

I placed a vote on him because I thought he was scum

orly? Cause if I remember correctly, you voted him for pressure. Why did you think he was scum again?

Anyways, hiphop is acting totally antitown. He's not helping at all. He's case on me is weak, with no evidence proof, etc. He is making everything way too complicated, and nothing he says makes sense.

Ok, so what is the simple approach here? I don't see any argument above for who you think is scum.

At first, I thought that bn simply breadcrummed his role. But when zwets turned up town, I knew he wasn't.

I don't understand what you are saying here. Zwet did not turn up town. I'm confused. you know what a breadcrumb is, correct?

@hiphop, what makes you so certain I'm not the cop. I don't think outting the role is the best idea right now.

I did vote zwets for pressure. But I also had a slight suspicion he was scum. Obviously you'll call me off as scum now.

The simple approach is to analyse each player individually, and find REAL reasons why that person is scum. Look, I wasn't the only person on zwets' wagon. What about everyone else? Why isin't anyone else on the wagon scummy?

I made a typo on my last post. I meant to say that zwets was scum. I know what a breadcrum is.