Mini 848 - Second String Muppets Mafia - Game Over.

[Ectomancer]

I was kind of on the same boat as Snix, just waiting for someone to do something that I legitimately identify as scummy. Ecto and Monkey are both definitely still on my radar, but I can't pin them down beyond cases that make way too much inference.

This statement is

entirely

inconsistent with your very recent insistence that we stay focused on the Jordan/Ecto vs Monkey situation. If you were waiting for someone to do something scummy, why were you opposed to getting additional cases that would present that opportunity?

[MonkeyMan576]

I was kind of on the same boat as Snix, just waiting for someone to do something that I legitimately identify as scummy. Ecto and Monkey are both definitely still on my radar, but I can't pin them down beyond cases that make way too much inference.

This statement is

entirely

inconsistent with your very recent insistence that we stay focused on the Jordan/Ecto vs Monkey situation. If you were waiting for someone to do something scummy, why were you opposed to getting additional cases that would present that opportunity?

I second this, this, in conjuction with his willingness to lynch scumhunters, gives me enough reason to change my vote for the time being. Not that I'm not still suspicious of Jordan or Ecto(especially Jordan), but the argument has run its course for the time being. I also agree DDD's L-1 vote raises eyebrows.

Unvote:
Vote: Eldrich Lord
Fos: DDD

[~Jordan`]

Hello sorry, saw 9 pages and didnt look forard to reread.

I am insulted at being called a rookie, even if it wasnt meant that way. I know mafia. I am no noob/rookie.

I don't know ecto, but I'm guessing he's defending me solely b/c he knows im right.

Also, as said b4, luckiness has nothing to do w/ this game. I am neither scum nor vanilla.

I don't like Monkey being suspicious of me, but I must say he looks like townie.

unvote

I believe Ecto and Monkey are on the same (townie) side. But ofc, more so Ecto than monkey.

I'll need to reread again to make sure of something before I make a vote.

[Ectomancer]

/facepalm

[Eldritch Lord]

The fact that I wanted to stay focused on your cases was because nothing better had presented itself, and switching focuses without a catalyst seemed pointless. Monkey, no OMGUS, but I find it slightly odd that you criticize me for switching focus due to an unforeseeable event, then proceed to do the same thing by switching from your Ecto/Jordan crusade to me.

[~Jordan`]

/facepalm

lol

Again, Eldritch, we reach the inconsistency problem.

I think the point is that you DID NOT stay focused.

[Eldritch Lord]

/facepalm

lol

Again, Eldritch, we reach the inconsistency problem.

I think the point is that you DID NOT stay focused.

Yes, I did not stay focused because new information presented itself. This new information (an L-1 Vote from a lurking player) could not have been "sniffed out", it had to be waited for patiently.

I waited and I struck.

Ecto seems to me, at the moment, to be legimately scumhunting, he hasn't played favorites or stayed on the defensive the entire game, he has no qualms with calling out every player.

unFoS: Ecto

Monkey, you on the other hand seem more interested in deflecting to defend yourself than you do in answering questions legitimately. The fact is, I would have no problem lynching you if the L-1 and Hammer votes didn't come from lurking players.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

You're very careful with your wording DDD, you weren't just voting, you were setting someone up to be hammered. There is a scary amount of finality and certainty to that given your lack of recent posting.

Of course I'm careful with my wording, it doesn't help me as town or scum to make mistakes of any kind; let alone silly wording errors.

I have no reason not to project the confidence I feel on the matter. It could be WIFOMed to death, but I'd suggest that my willingness to take a hard stance with confidence is a town-tell and that scum are more likely to waffle and try and keep their options open. Certainly when I look back at my scum play that's the primary issue I see.

~~~

I second Ectomancer's facepalm.

[~Jordan`]

You're very careful with your wording DDD, you weren't just voting, you were setting someone up to be hammered. There is a scary amount of finality and certainty to that given your lack of recent posting.

Of course I'm careful with my wording, it doesn't help me as town or scum to make mistakes of any kind; let alone silly wording errors.

I have no reason not to project the confidence I feel on the matter. It could be WIFOMed to death, but I'd suggest that my willingness to take a hard stance with confidence is a town-tell and that scum are more likely to waffle and try and keep their options open. Certainly when I look back at my scum play that's the primary issue I see.

~~~

I second Ectomancer's facepalm.

I learned from that post. /points at confirmed townie.

oh and i suspect the facepalm is directed toward me?

[MonkeyMan576]

You're very careful with your wording DDD, you weren't just voting, you were setting someone up to be hammered. There is a scary amount of finality and certainty to that given your lack of recent posting.

Of course I'm careful with my wording, it doesn't help me as town or scum to make mistakes of any kind; let alone silly wording errors.

I have no reason not to project the confidence I feel on the matter. It could be WIFOMed to death, but I'd suggest that my willingness to take a hard stance with confidence is a town-tell and that scum are more likely to waffle and try and keep their options open. Certainly when I look back at my scum play that's the primary issue I see.

~~~

I second Ectomancer's facepalm.

I think scum would be more likely to be concerned with wording errors, as they would be more worried about being caught in a fake roleclaim.

Also, it's pretty scummy to be directly promoting your own towniness, it causes one to think that your motives for your actions are not to find scum, but to project towniness.

[Ectomancer]

The fact that I wanted to stay focused on your cases was because nothing better had presented itself, and switching focuses without a catalyst seemed pointless.

Game at L-1, a case size of maybe 2, 3 if I'm being generous, and roughly 25% of the game has been absent for 90% of the time. Clearly not an optimal town situation for ending the day.
I can only discern one motivation for insisting we keep all talk confined to the case that needs only 1 vote to end the day, and that is to

get that vote

.
I explained that we were not in an optimal situation to end the day, so a rush to do so is more likely to be scum motivated than town motivated.

Have you had an epiphany?

[Eldritch Lord]

Because at the time I was insisting focus, we were not at L-1. Your logic holds Ecto, but I'm wondering if you were carefully constructing a strawman in that last post.

When we reached L-1, I decided it'd be best if we moved our focus, or at least if I moved my focus, until a time when the rest of that 25% of the time deems it fit to show up. I suppose you could call it an epiphany, though my thought process never really changed directions by my own hand. It was more of a forced awakening.

[Ectomancer]

My mistake, L-2.

Question: If you were waiting for more, and Monkey had said he thought L-2 the optimal time to claim, why didn't you ask for it? Why did you unvote after he got to L-1 without asking for it? Is your case on DDD so powerful that it negates the case you voted for against Monkey? If not, why did you drop your pursuit of Monkey's case if you cant pin down either one of us? I base this assertion on the fact that pushing Monkey's wagon to a claim was the next logical progression in that pursuit.

However, looking at this, I think your failure to pursue Monkey to claim is likely town motivated

if Monkey turns up town

. If Monkey turns up scum, I'm going to take this as evidence of a possible scum partner. I don't believe there is a rush to lynch Monkey to test that theory, but I want my opinion on it available. Right now I think I'm going to give you a town lean as your actions individually can be regarded as scummy, but collectively the tells contradict each other.

[Eldritch Lord]

It wasn't so much that my case against DDD is extremely powerful, its just that my case against monkey is extremely ethereal. It exists, and one could point out numerous instances of Monkey dodging and deflecting, but in no way does my voting for DDD prevent a roleclaim from monkey later in the day, I just don't think it was the appropriate timing.

[Eldritch Lord]

Besides voting for DDD has caused him to speak up a little more, which is nice. I also hope that it encourages the rest of our lurkers to do so, as it would be nice to hear input from them rather than playing around with what has essentially been you, Snix, and Monkey. (And recently: Kobyashi)

Jordan, I am completely unaware of what you're trying to do. I look forward to hearing from you and seeing your next vote.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I also hope that it encourages the rest of our lurkers to do so, as it would be nice to hear input from them rather than playing around with what has essentially been you, Snix, and Monkey. (And recently: Kobyashi)

What nonsense, you jump on me after I posted something controversial. Which is a signal flag to those lurkers that they should skip talking about anything important or skip talking at all. Your actions have the exact opposite effect of the result you hope to incur.

[Eldritch Lord]

I also hope that it encourages the rest of our lurkers to do so, as it would be nice to hear input from them rather than playing around with what has essentially been you, Snix, and Monkey. (And recently: Kobyashi)

What nonsense, you jump on me after I posted something controversial. Which is a signal flag to those lurkers that they should skip talking about anything important or skip talking at all. Your actions have the exact opposite effect of the result you hope to incur.

Controversial? It was hardly a post so much as a couple vague sentences and a L-1 vote with no former input. You are jumping to conclusions and speaking for other players, how should you know what effect my actions have had on other lurkers?

[elvis_knits]

So much has happened! I will read now and give thoughts.

[elvis_knits]

Bah, I decided I had to read from the beginning because this monkeyman business is complicated and there seems to be good and bad arguments on both sides. At the time I last posted I didn't want to deal with sorting through everything... but I took my time this morning to go over the whole game.

Here are my hilights, some of which have not been mentioned, but connect directly to some of the bigger issues.

28 - kirby votes jordan, wondering if jordan was softclaiming (rolefishing)
30 - monkey wagons jordan for no other reason than wagoning.
34 - malcolm votes jordan

(Three votes with no explanation)

45 - ecto - this post was not clear to me...
49 - monkey accuses jordan of omgus, even though 1)jordan only called monkey strange, and 2) jordan was asked what he though of the wagon on him, so he was just answering the question
50 - ML points out it isn't omgus
54 - Monkey is a hypocrite -- he talks about how jordan didn't give reasons for voting him, while he admits he had not real reason to vote jordan other than wagoning.
58 - kirby also accuses jordan of OMGUS and asks for a case, even though he had no case when voting jordan (hypocritical and eerily similar to monkey behavior).
62 - ecto - I love most of this post excpet for the "posting under your alt is scummy" bit which I caught and commented on before.
63 - Monkey says ecto is just angry because now ecto-jordan are connected. Personally, I don't see much of a connectiong, unless you want to say that he was defending jordan just because he didn't agree with your non-existent case.
67 - Monkey continues to fish, asking SL how she is "clearly town alligned."
76 - ecto makes me a bit nervous by continuing with the "posting under alts is scummy" stuff.
79 - monkey again with the ecto/jordan connection BS
84 - monkey with unsubstantiated claims that ecto and jordan are making cooperative attacks and defending each other
88 - This was my favorite! I have to quote it.

I think it can be shown that you had no stated case against jordan, just a vote until

he listed you as one of the possible scum on his wagon

.

This is one of ecto's best points, and one I think it is entirely correct. Some of ecto's arguments seem to get complicated and he throws in everything but the kitchen sink at times. I think some of the back and forth has diluted some of the very strong points, like this one.

92,97: Eldritch replaces and doesn't explain his vote on monkey very well. When I thought he was mostly voting because he didn't like monkey posting under his alt, he responds by saying that is not why he is voting, but doesn't elaborate.

101: monkey makes a plea to consolidate ecto and jordan wagons to push for a claim at 5 votes (This is really bad).
106: Eldritch comments on 101, saying he's happy with his vote on monkey (seems a little bit like he's constructing the case after voting).

109: Ecto explains his "posting under alts is scummy" claims. I appreciate the explanation, but I still think it's bad WIFOM, and throws suspicions on the rest of his case on monkey, which for the most part is very good.

112: monkey claiming hard evidence of a connections between ecto-jordan when he has never provided any.

---

Up to page 6 with the play by play.

Overall, I think monkey is scum, because he never had a good reason for voting jordan, then called jordan on OMGUS in order to build a case. Then he started hammering away at a jordan/ecto connection for no apparent reason, and saying he has proven something that is just a wild accusation. I think he's just doing it because it's the only way he can attack the points ecto is making against him -- to say ecto and jordan are scum buddies. That is a very scummy way to defend against points: not defend against the actual points but connect the player to another player you think is scummy.

Other things I think are important, and that hasn't really been mentioned:
Kirby and malcolm did basically the same thing that monkey did in the beginning, voting jordan for no reason.
Kirby also tried the OMGUS accusation against jordan after the fact.
Kirby also was rolefishing.
eldritch didn't explain his vote on monkey very much.

unvote

I want to just vote monkeyman, but I have to see what happens between pages 6-8. I think I saw kirby start bussing monkeyman... so I guess I have to read everything closely before voting.

[Eldritch Lord]

Good to hear from you elvis, you've provided a great deal of insight through your summary of the early game. I look forward to hearing the rest of your analysis.

You seem very eager to make connections between two scum right off the bat, while not a bad strategy, its certainly a bold one. I find that neither Jordan or Ecto look particularly scummy this game. I'd like to hear more about your scum-pair.

Essentially what I was trying to do with that was summarize previous arguments without expending too much effort in a huge write up. I thought Ecto was making good points and, even if in a convoluted manner, arguing well. It seemed like Monkey was trying to force a case where there was absolutely none to be made.

That said, I was never too particularly attached to the case against Monkey and spent most of my time trying to understand exactly what the case against Ecto was rather than pursue Monkey directly, though I think the Ecto/Monkey debate certainly deserves the great deal of scrutiny you've provided knits. I think, out of my strategy, we got several interesting dodges from Monkey which led me to believe it was a case full of hot air -- possibly scummy hot air.

[elvis_knits]

WOO Part 2 of my reading. This is shorter.

WE get a little actions between EL and Snix. EL questioning snix, seeming to think Snix is a little scummy for voting ecto. Atleast that is how I read their exchange. Then later EL says that Snix is a unique townie (or something like that... WTF).

131 - snix says he didn't vote ecto for defending jordan but because he denied it. Seems a little contrived and reachy, but okay.

139 - EL says he'd be okay with lynching any of ecto, jordan or monkey since all of the cases are weak. (This comes as a surprise to me that he thinks the cases are weak, and if they're weak, why does he want to lynch any of them??)
147 - EL doesn't want attention off monkey/jordan/ecto. Again... why would he want attention to stay on these three when he thinks all the cases are weak?

154 - kirby comes in and picks on one of monkeys only good points (monkey said EL should make his own case if he thinks all the cases are weak), and votes monkey. This seemed ludicrous to me. There's plenty of reasons to vote monkey. This is not one of them.

Then we get some fighting between kirby and monkey over basically nothing (which of jordan/ecto monkey would rather lynch). Seems to me like they might be distancing, because the fight is over something inconsequential.

162 - DDD votes monkey. I like this. Ballsy, aggressive. Only bad thing is that he doesn't provide too much content, only a vote with a bit of explanation (and the explanation is good btw). But there's not much comment on the game as a whole, so in that sense I see some of the criticism on DDD, but feel the vote is good.
164 - Snix votes DDD.
166 - EL votes DDD, taking pressure of monkey, and derailing the monkey bandwagon, moving focus to another player, a thing he has been saying we should not do. Hypocrisy.

177: jordan

So after everything, I think these people are scummy:

monkey
EL
Kirby (with possible ties to monkey)
and malcolm is not to be forgotten

I want to vote monkey, but I'm not sure of the VC right now.

mod, votecount please

[Eldritch Lord]

Interesting insights knits. Your summaries take a few of my positions out of context, such as desiring to continue focus on Ecto/Monkey. Though their cases were, extremely weak, I thought there was more to be gained out of continuing discourse. In doing so, we got dodges from Monkey and I feel a bit more information.

When I moved my vote, it was because new information had presented itself. No matter how much I had questioned other players, I doubt I could've persuaded one of them to crawl out of the woodwork and lay a L-1 vote down with no previous posting or content. What you call ballsy, I think could've been the real bussing. When DDD presented himself, it called my attention off a case that I think is still very important.

If the majority of town feels that they're ready to choose Monkey, I'm alright with that choice, I feel that he's slipped up enough to warrant a lynch.

I feel that we have more to learn from DDD and other lurkers before we do that though.

Taking my vote off is hardly scummy when the votes are instantly changeable and the guy is sitting at L-2 with people ready to drop a vote on him. We've got time, I think we've caught a lot of slip ups from monkey, we have time to learn more about other players and lurkers. I don't understand why everyone seems to eager to hold a guy at L-1 to force a roleclaim when we have posters who haven't posted since page 1.

Also, watch your wording, I have put Monkey at L-2 I believe, hardly a derailment of the bandwagon.

In voting for DDD I took a risk in following what I thought was right despite what others might think about it, you can WIFOM it to death, no doubt, but thats how I see it.

[Eldritch Lord]

Also, since it seems to be a misunderstanding.

I do think the cases against Monkey and Ecto are weak, the slip ups that have occurred during discourse, however, put Monkey in a very bad light for me.

Also, its literally all I have in terms of cases, it doesn't make sense for Snix to be scum to me, I feel like he would've folded under pressure sooner. Ecto seems to be legitimately hunting. I don't feel I have anything new to bring to the table. I guess weak cases in a sea of nothing are still cases, and Monkey has dodged, dipped, ducked enough to really make himself look scummy.

[Ectomancer]

Cant argue with the assessment or the critiques Elvis. Throwing in the kitchen sink can be a bad idea as it often presents an easy to knockdown strawman. My fault. You'll just have to understand that as I was trying to read Monkey, and found that I had to constantly crosscheck both logins

and making sure I had the chronology correct

, the more he did it, the more it looked like something he may have done by accident originally, but was doing more often (purposefully) rather than trying to correct it. I should have just stated a demand that he stop rather than mention that scummy motivations could certainly apply to those actions.

So we have some ties, here's what I see:

Monkeytown - EL likely town
Monkeyscum - Kirby likely scum - EL likely scum - Here I would likely test the EL alignment first due to the possible tie below.

ELscum - Snix possible scum based upon Elvis spotting a possible scumfluffle between the two.
ELtown - says nothing about Snix

Not a tie, but Kirby could be scum all on his own.

If you missed the argument as to why these ties exist in my head, it was written. If you need help finding them, speak out.

EL - if scum is likely to quickhammer, why wouldn't you hold Monkey at L-1 and let them do it? I'm good with a 1 for 1 trade regardless of role.

[elvis_knits]

EL, don't you think there is a contradiction in you telling everyone to keep pressure on monkey/jordan/ecto, then voting DDD? You aren't following your own advice. Makes me wonder why you wanted everyone to stay focused on those three at that time, but not later.

In fact, at the time you said to keep pressure on monkey/jordan/ecto, people were starting to complain about you 1)because you were saying the cases on those three were weak and saying to keep pressure on them, and 2)because you weren't making cases of your own.

So maybe you just didn't want anyone to widen the net of suspicion to include YOU.

But you were okay with widening the net of suspicion later when you wanted it to include DDD.