Mini 848 - Second String Muppets Mafia - Game Over.

[Zorblag]

Vote Count 1.4

The numbers by the voters indicate the order in which the vote was cast. If two or more players are tied for the most votes to lynch at the deadline the tiebreaker will be the player who has the earliest active vote.

MonkeyMan576: 4: MacavityLock (7), Ectomancer (9), ekiM (12), Eldritch Lord (13)
~Jordan`: 3: springlullaby (2), MonkeyMan576 (4), Malcolm (6)
Ectomancer: 2: elvis_knits (8), Snix (10)
elvis_knits: 1: Kirbyoshi (11)

Not Voting: Debonair Danny DiPietro, ~Jordan`

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Currently MonkeyMan576 would be lynched at deadline. Deadline is 1:00 PM EDT/10 AM PDT on Wednesday, October 7th 2009.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[MonkeyMan576]

I should have said earlier---saying that L-2 is a good place to ask for a roleclaim is anti-town. A claim should be requested when someone is ready to drop the hammer. Forcing claims too early helps scum.

I disagree, L-1 gives scum the opportunity to drop the hammer before the roleclaim, so L-2 is the more ideal time.

[Ectomancer]

Why would giving scum an opportunity to be at a defined position on a wagon be a bad idea? Still, I don't think that requesting at L-2 is what is scummy. Here's what might be scummy Monkey, you actually were after an L-4 claim. You were appealing to players on one wagon to join another for the sole purpose of forcing a claim. Well, you only had an L-4 case. You need to

build

to an L-2 case to ask for the claim. That's what I think is the issue.

[MonkeyMan576]

Why would giving scum an opportunity to be at a defined position on a wagon be a bad idea? Still, I don't think that requesting at L-2 is what is scummy. Here's what might be scummy Monkey, you actually were after an L-4 claim. You were appealing to players on one wagon to join another for the sole purpose of forcing a claim. Well, you only had an L-4 case. You need to

build

to an L-2 case to ask for the claim. That's what I think is the issue.

That's why I said the roleclaim was conditional on being at L-2. I never said RC right now. I've pushed for the Ecto/Jordan voters to consolidate for awhile now. Jordan seems to be the better choice, and I continue that assesment.

[Kirbyoshi]

I believe that Monkey and myself are the parties involved and we are asking you for your other cases. I really don't think that you want to attempt to argue that we haven't exhausted the argument.

Sooo...you're at each other's throats basically on everything else, yet you come together at this one point? You don't think Monkey could have a scummy motivation for saying EL is simply piggybacking without posting any real suspicions?

Wait a minute...

why don't you try to find your own scum, rather than lynch those that are willing to put themselves on a limb trying?

Monkey's comment to EL seems like a scummy GTFO move, as evidenced above. It sounds like "There's enough people on me. Go find someone else to pick on." Pretty scummy if you ask me.

Unvote Elvis, Vote: MonkeyMan576/MonkeySudo

I guess I'm picking a side now...

[MonkeyMan576]

I believe that Monkey and myself are the parties involved and we are asking you for your other cases. I really don't think that you want to attempt to argue that we haven't exhausted the argument.

Sooo...you're at each other's throats basically on everything else, yet you come together at this one point? You don't think Monkey could have a scummy motivation for saying EL is simply piggybacking without posting any real suspicions?

Wait a minute...

why don't you try to find your own scum, rather than lynch those that are willing to put themselves on a limb trying?

Monkey's comment to EL seems like a scummy GTFO move, as evidenced above. It sounds like "There's enough people on me. Go find someone else to pick on." Pretty scummy if you ask me.

Unvote Elvis, Vote: MonkeyMan576/MonkeySudo

I guess I'm picking a side now...

That's not what I was saying at all. I'm saying that voting for people that are casebuilding and scumhunting, when you're not willing to build your own cases, is scummy.

[Kirbyoshi]

Jordan seems to be the better choice, and I continue that assessment.

Really? When you posted the "request for consolidation" you did not endorse either lynch in particular, simply that the wagoners come to a consensus. When did you say (since you've been attacking both of them) that you thought Jordan was a better lynch than Ecto?

[MonkeyMan576]

Jordan seems to be the better choice, and I continue that assessment.

Really? When you posted the "request for consolidation" you did not endorse either lynch in particular, simply that the wagoners come to a consensus. When did you say (since you've been attacking both of them) that you thought Jordan was a better lynch than Ecto?

Right now. I wasn't dodging the question before, more I didn't realize is was something people were demanding an immediate answer to.

[Kirbyoshi]

That's not what I was saying at all. I'm saying that voting for people that are casebuilding and scumhunting, when you're not willing to build your own cases, is scummy.

Does not explain the fact that you, by the post to which I originally referred, attempted to discredit EL's arguments, when he has said time and time again that his arguments are based on sound logic, whilst you have been at least semi-flip-floppy on your cases.

[Kirbyoshi]

Right now. I wasn't dodging the question before, more I didn't realize is was something people were demanding an immediate answer to.

Seems to me that it would be obvious that if you ask for consolidation, the person who requests it should be the one to choose the target. You just left it wide open.

[MonkeyMan576]

That's not what I was saying at all. I'm saying that voting for people that are casebuilding and scumhunting, when you're not willing to build your own cases, is scummy.

Does not explain the fact that you, by the post to which I originally referred, attempted to discredit EL's arguments, when he has said time and time again that his arguments are based on sound logic, whilst you have been at least semi-flip-floppy on your cases.

I don't think his case is strong, at least not as strong as mine. He can say his case is based on strong logic all he wants, it doesn't make it fact. The fact is his behavior, being unwilling to attack or stop defending Jordan, and refusing to recognize this, has strengthened my case, wheras I don't see that ecto's argument is anything more than attacking my argument.

[MonkeyMan576]

Right now. I wasn't dodging the question before, more I didn't realize is was something people were demanding an immediate answer to.

Seems to me that it would be obvious that if you ask for consolidation, the person who requests it should be the one to choose the target. You just left it wide open.

Like I said, I didn't see it as a big issue at the time, I saw valid arguments for a Jordan or Ecto lynch, and still do. The case against Jordan is just stronger at this point, since he started the OMGUSing, poor arguing(they're "strange") and the Ecto case revolves around Jordan's original behavior.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I should have said earlier---saying that L-2 is a good place to ask for a roleclaim is anti-town. A claim should be requested when someone is ready to drop the hammer. Forcing claims too early helps scum.

I disagree, L-1 gives scum the opportunity to drop the hammer before the roleclaim, so L-2 is the more ideal time.

Guess you better start preparing your fake claim then.

Vote: MonkeyMan576

MM has made absolutely no attempt to refute Ecto's arguments trying to dismiss them for being "psychoanalysis". The cases he's claimed to present have not resonated with me at all and I swear that his behavior seems reminiscient of Mafia 91 where you guessed it, he was scum.

LE's syllogism about a potential relationship between Ecto and Jordan is also incomplete and he seems to miss as much as he hits and I like what I'm seeing from Mike.

[Ectomancer]

Let's play a game!

If I had a 2nd vote:

It would be on Kirby, regardless of MonkeyMan's alignment.

Your turns!

[Snix]

Screw waiting for a second vote,

Vote DDD

Coming out of nowhere and putting someone at L-1 is pretty fishy. My vote on Ecto was only there because I had yet to find someone that popped out at me as more scummy. Now I have.

I ask that we all at least wait for a response from Monkey before anyone hammers.

[Ectomancer]

I'll put you down as 2nd vote on Ecto.

[Eldritch Lord]

Kirbyoshi essentially posted for me, the primary reason I FoS'd you Ecto is because you seem to ignore your suspicion of Monkey in favor of deflecting the debate onto new targets. You seem even more focused on doing so in your latest post.

If I had a second vote, it would be on you, Ecto, just for this much blatant deflection. I may have not post my own suspicions, but I have posted logic for the argument against you, does this make you nervous Ecto?

Ecto

- Deflecting, possibly scum.

Snix

- Town trying to be unique.

Monkey

- Floundering, also deflecting, I am scumhunting but I see no reason to post suspicions regarding multiple players when you and Ecto are the subjects of my scrutiny.

Debonair Danny DiPietro

- What the hell? You come in here, post once, and set someone at L-1? I'm not ready for that, quite yet, given your sudden appearance.

Unvote: MonkeyMan576

Vote: Debonair Danny DiPietro

My syllogism is incomplete in what respect, exactly?

ekiM

- Wish I'd hear a little more from him, but I like what I see.

[Eldritch Lord]

In addition, my suspicions remain quite active and I am certainly not opposed to a Monkey lynch, given more time and input from DDD.

To be clear:

FoS: Ecto

HoS: Monkey

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Coming out of nowhere and putting someone at L-1 is pretty fishy.

Snix thinks that I shouldn't vote for players I believe to be scum. I find this an interesting take on how best to play mafia, but I think I'm going to ignore it. I see no reason to downplay my interest in a MM lynch or artificially extend a day when I see a someone I believe to be scum.

My syllogism is incomplete in what respect, exactly?

In review it might not have been your arguments, but those you were arguing against. Either way the arguments on both sides seemed to be shortsighted when considering the potential combinations of Ecto/Jordan in that they discounted too many posibilities.

[Eldritch Lord]

That's a terribly

obvious strawman

of Snix's position DDD. He didn't say that at all. You just posted very little reasoning and set him at L-1 with the reasoning:

MM has made absolutely no attempt to refute Ecto's arguments trying to dismiss them for being "psychoanalysis". The cases he's claimed to present have not resonated with me at all and I swear that his behavior seems reminiscient of Mafia 91 where you guessed it, he was scum.

This boils down to one dodge and meta. Then you make a vague comment about me being hit or miss and how you like Mike.

He

never

said he thought it was scummy for you to vote for people you think are scum.

I don't see any reason to argue outside of the constraints of those I'm arguing against, additional effort is pointless. Don't try to appeal to my ego, you'll fail.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

He didn't say that, no, but that's the practical effect of his comments; that I was rushing and it would've have been more town to pretend like I was less interested in a MM lynch then I was.

And I'd say those two sentences contain more than just a dodge and meta, I'd rephrase as...

1) His inability or unwillingness to engage with criticisms of his play instead trying to dismiss then out of hand.
2) The fact that he has been unable to present a reasonable case against those who he has chosen to attack.
3) Meta

Which seems fairly substantial to me, certainly enough for me to vote on.

[MacavityLock]

EL, are you taking Monkey off the hook for a claim?

[Eldritch Lord]

EBWOP:

You just posted very little reasoning and set him at L-1 with the reasoning:

Should be:

You just posted very little reasoning and set Monkey at L-1 with the reasoning:

Just trying to avoid confusion.

[Eldritch Lord]

You're very careful with your wording DDD, you weren't just voting, you were setting someone up to be hammered. There is a scary amount of finality and certainty to that given your lack of recent posting.

This is a good question Macavity, one I've been asking myself, actually. I suppose I'd like to hear more from DDD before hearing a roleclaim from Monkey.

I was kind of on the same boat as Snix, just waiting for someone to do something that I legitimately identify as scummy. Ecto and Monkey are both definitely still on my radar, but I can't pin them down beyond cases that make way too much inference.

[Ectomancer]

We can argue over the merits of having multiple, independent (not necessarily competing) cases presented if you would like. I dont see you have a winning argument though. Our stream of consciousness isn't a singularity. We can follow more than one idea thread at a time. There is no need to avoid other threads even if we were to already know which we plan to follow to an end today.
I'm also calling you out for hypocrisy for accusations of deflection, and then moving your vote off into a different direction before Monkey gave his claim. What else could both Monkey and I have been deflecting from except a claim from him or a hammer? So why would you assist this apparently suspcious deflection by helping it in a greater manner with the removal of your vote, and then actively postpone a claim by saying you would prefer to wait for more from DDD?