Newbie 835: Game Over

[yabbaguy]

Kirbyoshi seems jumpy, voting all over the place early on in this game,

could be nothing, could also be a scum tell.

Let me just state that with this, I think I've found the scumpair, partially providing Kirby does check out to be scum as I thought he would.

Note how princess waffles right there. She took a side on every single person, or outright stated speculative, on every player except Kirbyoshi, the one person who I believed to be outright scum. It's almost a shrug-off, and I believe she would do that as scum as to not even ignite a debate over him, who I believe to be her accomplice.

I also notice her analysis on YJ which really, really doesn't accomplish anything. It's not so much pursuing him as scum, it's basically telling him to get his ass in gear, which is not the point of scumhunting. If you think YJ is scum and dropped a scumtell, accept that gift from God or whoever you deem holy and vote him. I think you have the answers and know full well that YJ is town.

FOS: purpleprincess

I'll stick with Kirby D2.

[Kirbyoshi]

You have a strong enough case on YJ to vote, easily, and he hasn't posted anything groundbreakingly townie since you voted. I see no reason for the unvote. Having a vote on someone doesn't mean you can't be suspicious of anyone else.

Thanks for the insight. I seriously don't know why I unvoted now. I guess to put pressure on more people? But that basically took pressure off of the person who deserves it the most. Doesn't really matter why now, I guess, since I've changed my mind back.

Vote: Yamijoey

ugh...-_-;

[Kirbyoshi]

Let me just state that with this, I think I've found the scumpair, partially providing Kirby does check out to be scum as I thought he would.

I was told in my previous game that town shouldn't be looking for scumpairs until late in the game; this is only D2. Why are you, an SE, doing something that town shouldn't be doing?

FoS: yabbaguy

[Devotress]

I was told in my previous game that town shouldn't be looking for scumpairs until late in the game; this is only D2. Why are you, an SE, doing something that town shouldn't be doing?

FoS: yabbaguy

This is bad logic. You're suggesting that him looking for scum pairs makes him scummy, but how is this? What benefit do scum have by claiming two people are a scum pair, compared to just normal false scum hunting on individuals?
They can't use the idea of Scum pairs to set up a chain lynch, because after the first person flips town, the idea of the other person being paired with them goes away anyway.

This attempt to pin Yabbaguy is highly suspicious to me.

[Webz]

People being lenient and unsure of saying something about another person is a scumtell, whether they're a scumpair or not. PP treated Kirby in an odd manner, leading us to put suspicion on her. Not you, Kirby.

This situation is: Kirby is suspicious in the game, PP treats Kirby weirdly and takes both sides of an issue.
The result is: PP seems more scummy and Kirby seems as scummy as before.

What benefit do scum have by claiming two people are a scum pair, compared to just normal false scum hunting on individuals?

If they really need either to be lynched and do not really care if they get lynched the following day because that leads to a positive position for the scum. Like, let me see, today.

Because of what has just recently happened:

FoS: purple princess
FoS: Kirbyoshi

Not because I think you're a scumpair, but because you've both been scummy. My vote on YJ stands, but possibly not for long.

[Webz]

If they really need either to be lynched and do not really care if they get lynched the following day because that leads to a positive position for the scum

EBWOP, To clarify: If the scum really needs either of the double townie "scumpair" to be lynched, and doesn't care if they themselves get lyched the following day because it leads to a position positive for the scum. If that were to happen today, then we would end up on a 2:1 lylo on day 4, most likely, a positive position for scum.

However, I do not think that Yabba is doing this. If he was, though, it would be to draw suspicion away from YJ.

[Devotress]

EBWOP, To clarify: If the scum really needs either of the double townie "scumpair" to be lynched, and doesn't care if they themselves get lyched the following day because it leads to a position positive for the scum. If that were to happen today, then we would end up on a 2:1 lylo on day 4, most likely, a positive position for scum.

I still don't get it though. Kirby was acting like the specific act of calling calling out a suspected pairing was scummy, beyond the act of just calling out people seperately. So I am still confused as to why it is more scummy for them to say "Kirby and PP are scum buddies" Then it is, for example, for me to say "Kirby and Yami both seem scummy to me", which wasn't getting called out by kirby.

[Webz]

I still don't get it though. Kirby was acting like the specific act of calling calling out a suspected pairing was scummy, beyond the act of just calling out people seperately. So I am still confused as to why it is more scummy for them to say "Kirby and PP are scum buddies" Then it is, for example, for me to say "Kirby and Yami both seem scummy to me", which wasn't getting called out by kirby.

If the link was strong enough, and the town wasn't smart, then it could be used to override cases which might actually have more to go on (Read:YamiJoey) because of such weird connections. However, I think that a case which deals with a possible scumpair should only go against someone that did the suspicious action than was on the receiving end, at least until the person that acted suspiciously flips mafia. Because we don't want to be tricked by a scum gambit.

[yabbaguy]

@Kirby-227:

I was told in my previous game that town shouldn't be looking for scumpairs until late in the game

What game? Also, I should remind you that we are in D2 and are at risk for LyLo tomorrow if this lynch is errant. We're getting there.

I think the motive for that defense is misplaced. You're basically saying "I can't do this because I'm doing something unusual." That's for everyone else to decide. I think you telling me that is scum wishing I could somehow see some error in my ways so that I'll stop.

@Devotress-228: Doesn't mean the second-in-line isn't scum though.

@Webz-232: I highly doubt it's a planned gambit, not so much as a slip.

[Kirbyoshi]

I don't know how to explain it. The game was Newbie 818, and I think the one who called me out on it was Pablo Molinero, if anyone here has heard of him.

[purple princess]

#1: You're treating Devotress as town because you can't get a total read on her, while you're treating Yabba as sceptical scum because you can't get a read on him, when he has contributed MORE to scumhunting than Devotress. This seems like double standards, which is not townie in the slightest.

I didn't say I didn't get a total read on Devtress, I said that there was nothing to suspect me of her being scum right now, but couldn't get a read on Yabbaguy, so I will need to keep lokking. I don't see any double standards there myself.

#2: You're assuming that YJ's main objective is to stay alive. It is not a townie's main aim to stay alive, but to scumhunt. You seem to think that YJ should focus more on defending himself than finding a more scummy person, which is very, very scummy. Because scum only want to stay alive.

I agree it town's main aim to scum hunt, which I did point out in my post...

I think you should make yourself incredibly usefull on finding who is actually scum in this game

I also think that if he is town, he really isn't much use for us if he is dead, considering he would have been hammered for such a newbie move.

@ PP:It has been gone over before: Too Townie is not a scumtell. It is a shown logical fallacy.

#3: Using the Too Townie fallacy.

Why do you feel the need to post the same thing twice? Am I right? sometimes scum may try a little harder to look more town, is this what you are doing?

If you think YJ is scum and dropped a scumtell, accept that gift from God or whoever you deem holy and vote him. I think you have the answers and know full well that YJ is town.

As you are playing as SE in this game you should be fully aware that in newbie games mistakes do happen, which is what I beleive happened with YamiJoey, I don't think scum would have slipped up so much, alas I do not have the answers though so I am unable to be 100% on this.

VOTE Webz

you seem to be a bit bothered than you should be that I fos you.

[yabbaguy]

This scumpairing idea Kirby/Pom/Exalt have in their heads, and I say this in EVERY game I am in, is pretty much total crap at least on Day 1. Once we have some flips, then you can go after scumpairs legitimately. Otherwise, it is just baseless speculation that I have seen before used to lynch a townie; it is a very bad route to go down. Not only that, but both me and adam have shown considerable suspicion of one another, but trying to push a lynch when you should know NO ONE’s alignment is illogical and scummy.

This, Kirby?

(more analysis later)

[Kirbyoshi]

Yes, that. Btw, Exalt ended up being scum in that game, and he was the only SE/IC in that group (and therefore probably the only one in that group who knew better).

[YamiJoey]

What does this mean? I don't think it's just an accident, seeing as your other capitalizations haven't been random.

Caps were added for emphasis. TownIE doesn't always mean town, although I'm not adopting a "Too Townie" argument, because that's just bogus.

And I'm not even going to repsond to the rest of the post, as I can tell it was done in sarcasm.

OK, am I the only one who thinks that this is the "Too Townie" argument I got slammed for before, only said in a different way?

I've also seen a lot of people taking what is said on face value unless it directly contradicts what they or someone else is saying. Not everything is true.

Seeing as we've gone from me and Kirby being under suspicion to me, Kirby, Webz and PP, I'd like to take a new approach; who do you think is most trustworthy? (ie. Most Townie.) As a side-noe: where the hell did the FoS on Yabbaguy come from?

This is bad logic. You're suggesting that him looking for scum pairs makes him scummy, but how is this? What benefit do scum have by claiming two people are a scum pair, compared to just normal false scum hunting on individuals?

Whilst I don't have an answer to the question, it is advantagous to look for Scum pairs as Scum, as it is another form of scum-hunting you're bringing to the table, which can only be seen as pro-Town. (Can't it?)

Why do you feel the need to post the same thing twice? Am I right? sometimes scum may try a little harder to look more town, is this what you are doing?

Just like to point out that Webz didn't do so. He pointed out that "Too Townie" was not a legitimate strategy, and then pointed out you were using that strategy. That's a scummy diversion tactic to simply deflect a suspicion like that, ergo I

FoS: Purple Princess

Can I get a vote count, please?

YJ

[Webz]

I didn't say I didn't get a total read on Devtress, I said that there was nothing to suspect me of her being scum right now, but couldn't get a read on Yabbaguy, so I will need to keep lokking. I don't see any double standards there myself.

There is nothing to suspect either of them to be scum really. If you show me that Devotress has shown more townie tells, then I might be able to see eye to eye with you. But to me, it doesn't look like that at all.

I also think that if he is town, he really isn't much use for us if he is dead, considering he would have been hammered for such a newbie move.

He can't help us if he's dead. He can't help us if he's alive and only defending himself. Therefore he should scumhunt.

@ PP:It has been gone over before: Too Townie is not a scumtell. It is a shown logical fallacy.

#3: Using the Too Townie fallacy.

Why do you feel the need to post the same thing twice? Am I right? sometimes scum may try a little harder to look more town, is this what you are doing?

I thought of removing one before I posted. But I decided against it because the first was saying that doing it is wrong, and the second was listing your scumtells.

And please read the article before you reply next time. The people who will try hardest to act town, are scum. The people who actually act towniest are town, because acting town when you are scum is a lot easier to say than do. So no, you're not right.

VOTE Webz

you seem to be a bit bothered than you should be that I fos you.

I am not bothered that you are on my case. I am bothered that you are using false logic and showing scumtells.

Like: Voting aggressively.

@Webz-232: I highly doubt it's a planned gambit, not so much as a slip.

I agree. But I think that if we react stupidly to this slip, it leaves us open to such a gambit.

And @ YJ: I see Yabba as the most trustworthy. I see Devotress as the most townie.

[Webz]

I've noticed something. Kirby's attack on Yabba for talking about scumpairs has been treated suspicious. But not in the right way. It was, as far as I can see, just thought to be an attack on Yabba. But what it really is is a chainsaw defense, because it pulls PP out of the spotlight for acting suspiciously. This much more relevant, however, if PP or Kirby flip scum. However, they have defended each other, although not in a "Mutaul Chainsaw Defence" way, so I think it is relevant now. (The article says this can be a null tell, but I think that in this case it isn't, because of the scumpair discussion)

So,

unvote:YamiJoey

He is not nearly as scummy as kirb/PP

@ Kirby: These are serious questions.
1) What age are you?
2) What is your favourite subject at school/where do you work?
3) What is your favourite band?
4) What is your favourite TV show?

I'll post why after you reply.

[Thok]

Official Vote Count (deadline 9/29)

Kirbyoshi (2): (yabbaguy, Devotress)
YamiJoey (1): (Kirbyoshi)
Webz (1): (purple princess)
Devotress (0):
purple princess (0):
yabbaguy (0):
orangepenguin (0):

Not Voting (3): (YamiJoey, orangepenguin, Webz)

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Please let me know if I've made a mistake.

Prodding orangepenguin, who hasn't posted in a while.

[Kirbyoshi]

@ Kirby: These are serious questions.
1) What age are you?
2) What is your favourite subject at school/where do you work?
3) What is your favourite band?
4) What is your favourite TV show?

I'll post why after you reply.

Wtf Webz, seriously. But ok...

1) 18
2) Not sure, but I'm gonna have to say chemistry, mostly because the chemistry class I'm in is mainly for nursing students who are mostly girls (hot ones at that).
3) I'll have to think about this one...I like Skillet, but Thousand Foot Krutch is good too (and I'm recently getting into their punk-style music, where they play under the name FM Static)
4) Definitely Psych. No better show out there.

Now why in the world did you ask me those ridiculous questions?

[yabbaguy]

@Kirby-234:

I don't know how to explain it.

So you threw a point out from someone not in this game hoping that I'd interpret it myself, take it seriously, and back off? No thanks.

@Princess-235: (I'm not gonna use PP, that sounds weird to say out loud)

I don't think scum would have slipped up so much

This means nothing. Why should the mafia be any better?

Your case on Webz is also full of holes. Do you really think his posts are completely pointless? Do you think he's "trying too hard"?

@Webz-239:

And @ YJ: I see Yabba as the most trustworthy. I see Devotress as the most townie.

Consider me baffled, especially since it was "most trustworthy? (

ie

. Most Townie.)"

@Kirby-242:

Now why in the world did you ask me those ridiculous questions?

I'll post why after you reply.

Impulsive, much?

[Webz]

@ Yabba: I'm taking into acount skill as well as townieness. Trustworthyness is not townieness, but a combination of townieness and good use of the townieness. Towny people can stuff up, if you trust them. Trustworthy people aren't likely to.

So, for instance, I'd be more comfortable with Yabba hammering someone than Devotress, but also more comfortable with his lynch. Right at this point, though. It is subject to a lot of change.

And at the questions, I was testing your maturity level. You got a moderately mature to quite mature rating on all of them. I'm not sure if there is anything in particular that this says, but it's interesting to know. It lets me see your posts in the right light (newbie mistakes rather than childish mistakes, if you were to make a mistake etc. etc.).

And a much more important question: What do you think about Princess?

[Kirbyoshi]

What do you think about Princess?

Don't care if this makes me seem scummier than I apparently already do, but I think she's town. Honestly, right now, you're second on my scum list Webz. I said before that something didn't feel right, and things you post are feeling worse and worse, though I still can't pinpoint it exactly. BTW, for the same reasons, could you answer those questions for me?

[Webz]

1) What age are you? 16
2) What is your favourite subject at school/where do you work? French, probably. It just seems like it might be actually be some use in life.
3) What is your favourite band? Blindspott. They're a Kiwi band (ie from NZ, where I live.) Kind of Nu Metal. Other than that, Rise Against.
4) What is your favourite TV show? I don't watch TV, since I don't have one. But Flight of the Concords is cool.

And Kirby, please pinpoint it. Town works on facts and evidence to win games.

[purple princess]

He can't help us if he's dead. He can't help us if he's alive and only defending himself. Therefore he should scumhunt.

Which I have said so, but you keep missing this out for some reason.

I thought of removing one before I posted. But I decided against it because the first was saying that doing it is wrong, and the second was listing your scumtells

Well if you thought about removing one of them you can understand why I thought you had posted the same thing twice. I guess YamiJoey gave you your answer for that in post 238 which was lucky for you.

@Princess-235: (I'm not gonna use PP, that sounds weird to say out loud) Laughing

I don't think scum would have slipped up so much

This means nothing. Why should the mafia be any better?

Your case on Webz is also full of holes. Do you really think his posts are completely pointless? Do you think he's "trying too hard"?

I just don't beleive that scum would make such a reckless move, surley the object of there game is to stay alive to win. When day two had started mostly everyone was ready to lynch him, which doesn't really look good if he is scum does it? one scum down, one to go, I think we would be looking at a town win. I just belive that scum would be trying their hardest to steer votes away from them.

I think that Webz is a very active player, but his posts just seem to waffle on without much really to say, I still beleive he has something to hide and yes I think he is trying a little to hard

[Devotress]

I just did a quick search through eveyone's posts, using ctrl-f and looked for "Fallen" and "FA", and the only person still in the game who never adressed Fallen angel's existence was kirbyoshi. Kirbyoshi infact never even had a single post where he quoted anyone else talking about fallenangel. I was trying to see what everyone had said about FA, since the thread seems to be considering her for scum now, and found that.
My question as a new player, is is this kind of thing worth pointing out, or am I reading way to far into silly things? It'd be great if the IC could answer this of course, but anyone else experienced's opinions on this would be good too.

[Devotress]

about FA, since the thread seems to be considering her for scum now, and found that.

I ment considering Fa/replacement of course.