California Trilogy: City of Angels - Off Stage (Game Over)

[Talilan]

You just admitted your attacks were OMGUS

Hey now, OMGUS is merely a description of the nature of the vote. It's not a scum-tell and doesn't rob the vote of any legitimacy. The archetypal "OMGUS" action (on which the whole expression is based) came from a town player. Note Glork has also just now claimed this as a deliberate playstyle which he finds helpful:

This is how I always play. I ALWAYS want to know why people suspect me, because I want to pick out those reasons and examine them. I typically find it easier to find scum who are running ME up than scums who are running OTHER people up.

ANYBODY who has played with me in the past can tell you this. Sadly, most of the people who know me best (PJ, MBL, Thok, Yosarian, Pooky) are currently On Camera. I understand where you're coming from, but I have always been a self-interested bastard.

Talilan {ortolan}, you use the word "seem" quite a bit. Do you often make accusations rather than implement accepted-facts?

I'm not aware of myself using the word "seem" excessively and I'm not sure how using the word seems constitutes "making an accusation", or how it prevents me "implementing accepted-facts", whatever that means.

I have no defense to the timing other than to say that the scums set me up, and that once I'm lynched as an innocent, look strongly at the people who first proposed the KY-Gaspar connection.

I want it noted that I never thought KY Crew's activities

alone

necessarily implicated Glork. It's true that KY Crew, as scum, had motivation to do that then regardless of whether Glork is scum.

Also obligatory "omg Yos isn't acting like KY Crew is obv-scum on stage, he must be scum himself". It's fun when your victims can't retaliate.

Oh okay my bad I'll make sure to keep in mind that I shouldn't be commenting on the other half of this game Talilan. My bad, totally forgot that the Off-Camera action is the ONLY thing I should be commenting on.

This wasn't intended as an attack on you but rather elmosaurian.

- ortolan

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

It'll be interesting to see KY's alignment. A game this big, I kind of believe in the cult's (or some other 3rd-party) existence. I feel more like he made a slip as 3rd party, not scum, but time will tell.

This is scummy. KY is quite obviously not a 3rd party based on his actions and the recent events. Analysis of the actions and what they say about alignment:

He switched out to avoid a lynch (could be 3rd party or mafia)

He deliberately tried to change the decision On Camera to the bad one (I see much more benefit for a mafia to do this than a 3rd party)

HE WAS PICKED AS AN ADVOCATE (Hmm...)

He choose the door right away (Why would a 3rd party do this?)

KY was caught Day 1 and now is trying to mess up as much as he can before we lynch him. Why would a 3rd party draw this much attention to themselves? I don't like the people who are believing in the cult and mentioning it for no reason and I don't like you putting doubt on KY being mafia.

On another note, I'm gonna be V/LA this weekend but my other heads should still be able to participate.

-dahill

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Oh, and as for which door to pick I think (if KY is telling the truth about Talilan not getting info) that he messed us up too much to make an informed decision. so i don't care which door we pick

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

6 to lynch.

Panzerjager: 1 (hewitt)

Not Voting: 9 (Bagel Eating Cowfrog, Gaspar, GoofballsAndBaloons, Panzerjager, sottyrulez, StarKiss, Talilan, Thesp, VP Baltar)

Current Condorcet Winner:

Gaspar

To view the complete table of pairwise results, put the following information into this form.

1,Bagel Eating Cowfrog
2,Gaspar
3,GoofballsAndBaloons
4,hewitt
5,Panzerjager
6,sottyrulez
7,StarKiss
8,Talilan
9,Thesp
10,VP Baltar
11,No Lynch
12,Mr. Grey

1:2=3=4=5=6=7=8=9=10=11>1
1:4=8>10>6=7=9>5>1=3>11>2
1:2>7>9=10>12>1=4=5=6=8=11>3
1:5>2=8>10>7>1=3=9>6>11>4
1:1=2=3=4=6=7=8=9=10=11>5
1:2>4>7=10>8=9>5>1>3>11>6
1:1=2=3=4=5=6=8=9=10=11>7
1:1=2=3=4=5=6=7=9=10=11>8
1:1=2=3=4=5=6=7=8=10=11>9
1:1=2=3=4=5=6=7=8=9=11>10

[Gaspar]

Ortolan: There is one MASSIVE difference between what I've said and what you've done. I have asked for explanations behind people's suspicions of you, but you have almost universally (Elmosaurian, me, Hewitt) fought to convince others that your attackers are scums. Note that one of the people I find most protown (G&B) is someone who really wants me dead. Do not try to liken your behavior to my playstyle, because there are some very large fundamental differences between the two.

[Gaspar]

EBWOP: Add Thok to that list. Seriously, it's ridiculous.

[Gaspar]

I have no defense to the timing other than to say that the scums set me up, and that once I'm lynched as an innocent, look strongly at the people who first proposed the KY-Gaspar connection.

I want it noted that I never thought KY Crew's activities

alone

necessarily implicated Glork. It's true that KY Crew, as scum, had motivation to do that then regardless of whether Glork is scum.

What exactly provoked you to respond to this statement, which was made in response to Sottyrulez?

[Talilan]

Ortolan: There is one MASSIVE difference between what I've said and what you've done. I have asked for explanations behind people's suspicions of you, but you have almost universally (Elmosaurian, me, Hewitt) fought to convince others that your attackers are scums. Note that one of the people I find most protown (G&B) is someone who really wants me dead. Do not try to liken your behavior to my playstyle, because there are some very large fundamental differences between the two.

I am not saying it is my playstyle. I am saying you appear to be claiming it is your own playstyle, especially those comments about "self-interest" etc. Which counter's hewitt's assumption that OMGUS is scummy.

I have no defense to the timing other than to say that the scums set me up, and that once I'm lynched as an innocent, look strongly at the people who first proposed the KY-Gaspar connection.

I want it noted that I never thought KY Crew's activities

alone

necessarily implicated Glork. It's true that KY Crew, as scum, had motivation to do that then regardless of whether Glork is scum.

What exactly provoked you to respond to this statement, which was made in response to Sottyrulez?

I felt like it. Thought it would be interesting to comment on.

EBWOP: Add Thok to that list. Seriously, it's ridiculous.

It's the only thing people have been doing which is scummy, apart from KY Crew. I don't see evidence of scum lurking in the background while I attack all of you. I very much think I'm on the money with most of you (which is why so many people seem to agree). It won't be so "ridiculous" when I'm vindicated at the end of the game when you all flip scum now will it.

- ortolan

[Gaspar]

They don't counter Hewitt's stance, because OMGUS is accusing your attackers of being scum, not asking them to explain themselves. Two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS.

[sottyrulez]

Right now it has a lot to do with your vote for Zwet and how KY Krew rushed the end of the day. I can't believe the two aren't linked in some fashion. DGB was right, at the time things were starting to turn for you. I don't think it was a coincidence

I have no defense to the timing other than to say that the scums set me up, and that once I'm lynched as an innocent, look strongly at the people who first proposed the KY-Gaspar connection.

DGB is the first person that hops into mind. I'm pretty sure she was the first to suggest that link. Who else would you put here?

sottyrulez, how is Gaspar thinking more for himself? Also, is what he's doing at all harmful to the town? (or whoever else)

Pretty sure we answered this in the same post. Barring some divine intervention, the lynch for the day is KY Krew. Gaspar appears worried that he is going to get lynched and so is making the day about someone who isn't KY Krew. Or at least attempting to. This is harmful for the town because it could serve as a distraction to the town.

Yay, VP is playing!

-Sotty.

[Talilan]

They don't counter Hewitt's stance, because OMGUS is accusing your attackers of being scum, not asking them to explain themselves. Two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS.

He is classifying what we do as OMGUS even though it is in the latter category as you describe. You seem to take every opportunity to attack us irrespective of whether it's, you know, logical.

- ortolan

[Gaspar]

No, I'm sorry, but I 100% agree with Hewitt here. Maybe if you had looked at one of your four biggest attackers and found any one of them to be reasonably protown, but you don't. You have done nothing but try to discredit all four of us, and that's a gigantic red flag when it comes to scumbags. From the moment someone disagrees with you, they're scum, and from the moment their top suspicions coincide with your top suspicions, they're protown (i.e., Thesp, G&B).

DGB is the first person that hops into mind. I'm pretty sure she was the first to suggest that link. Who else would you put here?

Honestly, I'd have to go back and look at it. One sec...

Okay, here's the timeline as I see it.
DGB first brought it up in Post 559
SL came to my defense in Post 560
DGB reiterated her stance in Post 563 and Post 566. She is very married to this theory right off the bat.
Talilan makes a very interesting take on the issue. First, she dances around the issue in Post 580, noting that Krew's move is good "irrespective of whether you think this incriminates Glork or not."
In her very next post, Post 594, she inexplicably says that I instructed Krew to drop the hammer before I could be the condorcet leader. Note that this was in direct response to CKD's question: "Wait, why was CKD lynched all of a sudden?" Her explanation is 100% speculation, yet she presents it as fact. This is also the post in which she conveniently forgot that Krew is confirmed scum and said that I needed to be lynched D2.

That's all I can see for a few pages, and it's late. DGB first proposed it, and pushed it pretty hard, and then Talilan took over as flagbearer. I still think G&B's behavior overall is fairly protown, but yeah, I'm like 99.9999% sure that Talilan is scum.

And truth be told, this exploration makes me feel MUCH better about probably being lynched on D3 or D4. As long as Talilan dies as scum the very next day, I'll trade me for a scumbag anyday.

[Gaspar]

Pretty sure we answered this in the same post. Barring some divine intervention, the lynch for the day is KY Krew. Gaspar appears worried that he is going to get lynched and so is making the day about someone who isn't KY Krew. Or at least attempting to. This is harmful for the town because it could serve as a distraction to the town.

Bzzt. Let me quote a handful of my posts since Krew's put himself On Camera during Day One, and into the OffStage and into Day Two.

KY is so getting lynched tomorrow, it's not even funny.

I would be okay with an image that has inHim/Raj/KY Krew's avatars with BIG RED Xes through them (or something like this over them).

I mean, KY was at Lynch -2, with Zwet likely to vote them last I checked (correct me if this is wrong, Zwet). He was obviously in "you need to claim" territory, was leading the condorcet, and decided that he apparently had to jump onstage and share information with everyone. Bad news bears.

Of course, KY has taken an action which very clearly made up my mind as to which of you two is more likely to be scum. He took himself out of the equation with a sloppy and useless post, and that makes it MUCH more likely that he's scum leaving a townie (YOU) out to dry.

Furthermore, we already know that we're lynching KY Krew tomorrow, so it doesn't really matter whether Elmosaurian is left Off Stage.

My reversal was unanticipated because -- and see if you can follow this:

KY Krew [made] a COMPLTELY UNANTICIPATED DECISION, which makes him very likely scum.

Like I've already explained, going On Camera and leaving you hanging out to dry makes it MUCH more likely that you're a victimized townie.

I will be very, very, very displeased if Gaspar somehow lives through day two.

You'd rather have someone else lynched over Krew? Enormous Gigantor FoS.

Of course the scums made Krew the Adovcate. I had a strong suspicion they would. I think Krew should be pulled after approximately 48 hours, unless the other players on camera request that we get rid of him sooner.

I think it should be quite apparent that

FROM THE MOMENT KREW PUT HIMSELF ONSTAGE, I WANTED HIM TO BE THE DAY TWO LYNCH

. That has been a done deal in my mind for like a solid week now.


The reason I'm talking about other people is because IMO, there's very little to discuss about Krew. He is absolute, definite scum. Zero doubt in my mind. More certain of it than even Talilan. What I'm doing, Sottyrulez, is trying to get something ELSE useful out of this day as well, by asking critical questions of several players. That's just basic Protown Play 101. What do you want me to say? "Hay guys, I still think Krew is the lynch of the day?" If that's what you want, I'll say it for the dozenth time. But after making all of the above statements, I didn't think anybody could be so stupid enough to accuse me of "making the day about somebody else."

I suggest you stop and think very long and very hard about what I've said about KY Krew. Especially look at the post where I absolutely rip into Talilan for saying that I should be lynched Day Two. And then I want you to tell me if you really think this is a valid argument at all.

[PJ.]

Popping in to tell everyone that I'm in the process of reading, sorry my girlfriend is down this weekend and is leaving sunday afternoon, so I'm busy being a boyfriend and such. I did quickly skim for Hewitt's vote and it's total craplogic, but that's fine. Yes, Valentine is like her brother but You forgot that I had inside information that I was supposed to lead, therefore his choice is the BAD choice.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Right now it has a lot to do with your vote for Zwet and how KY Krew rushed the end of the day. I can't believe the two aren't linked in some fashion. DGB was right, at the time things were starting to turn for you. I don't think it was a coincidence

I have no defense to the timing other than to say that the scums set me up, and that once I'm lynched as an innocent, look strongly at the people who first proposed the KY-Gaspar connection.

DGB is the first person that hops into mind. I'm pretty sure she was the first to suggest that link. Who else would you put here?

That was indeed me that proposed the idea, and when both Ky Krew and Gaspar flip scum, I want a chocolate medal.

-DGB

[sottyrulez]

The reason I'm talking about other people is because IMO, there's very little to discuss about Krew. He is absolute, definite scum. Zero doubt in my mind. More certain of it than even Talilan. What I'm doing, Sottyrulez, is trying to get something ELSE useful out of this day as well, by asking critical questions of several players. That's just basic Protown Play 101. What do you want me to say? "Hay guys, I still think Krew is the lynch of the day?" If that's what you want, I'll say it for the dozenth time. But after making all of the above statements, I didn't think anybody could be so stupid enough to accuse me of "making the day about somebody else."

I suggest you stop and think very long and very hard about what I've said about KY Krew. Especially look at the post where I absolutely rip into Talilan for saying that I should be lynched Day Two. And then I want you to tell me if you really think this is a valid argument at all.

Okay, you could have a point here. I do personally need to review the whole exchange again, so when I get a minute I will do that.

-Sotty

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

The reason I'm talking about other people is because IMO, there's very little to discuss about Krew. He is absolute, definite scum. Zero doubt in my mind. More certain of it than even Talilan. What I'm doing, Sottyrulez, is trying to get something ELSE useful out of this day as well, by asking critical questions of several players. That's just basic Protown Play 101. What do you want me to say? "Hay guys, I still think Krew is the lynch of the day?" If that's what you want, I'll say it for the dozenth time. But after making all of the above statements, I didn't think anybody could be so stupid enough to accuse me of "making the day about somebody else."

I suggest you stop and think very long and very hard about what I've said about KY Krew. Especially look at the post where I absolutely rip into Talilan for saying that I should be lynched Day Two. And then I want you to tell me if you really think this is a valid argument at all.

Okay, you could have a point here. I do personally need to review the whole exchange again, so when I get a minute I will do that.

-Sotty

@ Talilan - what is your take on the above?

-DGB

[StarKiss]

@Tali - Okie dokie... in general, or to your recollection, how often do you say someone is scummy based on an unproven scenario versus factual-evidence? I'm not saying that you "reach" a lot.

In her very next post, Post 594, she inexplicably says that I instructed Krew to drop the hammer before I could be the condorcet leader. Note that this was in direct response to CKD's question: "Wait, why was CKD lynched all of a sudden?" Her explanation is 100% speculation, yet she presents it as fact.

This is what I mean, Tali. I see you using accusation > fact.

@BEC - I never said I wasn't down for lynching KY. I noted how he opened the door to belief in 3rd party. Any alignment that is non-town can get lynched as far as I'm concerned. Got me? Also (based on a VERY recent game; hewitt knows what I'm on about), I get the feeling that when he says "cult has now been enabled" means that there is some recruiting going on. If that's the case, hopefully he's the recruiter so we can put a nail in that coffin. Also, I remembered what curious/Locke was saying about him driving in the 1st scene. He said that if he drove, he'd convert to the darkside. Now I'm thinking that either Panzer/Valentine was tricked into converting, or KY is toying with us. So that's why I said it'll be interesting to see if he's mafia or 3rd-party.

@sottyrulez - Gaspar is diverting from KY's lynch by making himself a candidate as well? If not, create the scenario so I understand where you believe things will go if Gaspar continues to distract.

@DAB - Got anything to show?

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

@DAB - Got anything to show?

Nope. Nothing to show at all. I'm completely useless. You're right. I've not contributed anything.

I appreciate your insight in pointing it out. The rest of the crowd hasn't noticed my flying under everyone's radar with the gigantic voids of intelligence that are my posts, but really my very presence just turns players into lumps of stupid - it's my fault. But thanks to you, now they will see that I am a black hole of intelligence, sucking everyone else's wit with my dense gravitational field of idiocy, and turning that wit into anti-wit.

I love your theory that a cult recruiter would raise the possibility of there being a cult.

Keep up the good work.

-DGB

[StarKiss]

Just link me to your more vital posts. That's all I'm asking.

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

to those of you (StarKiss) that feel like there's a possibility of a cult, how the heck would they fit into the type of endgame we're going to have, where we have 2 [Something Else] and 5 Town? Seriously, we know what's going on here. Make good decisions and lynch scum for the best possible endgame. Unless there's some evidence of a cult, I'm going to just ignore all talk about it, and I'm going to find people who bring it up scummy,

even if we end up having a cult

.

Talilan, what are the main points against the people you suspect, besides that they're suspicious of you?

-Cow

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Just link me to your more vital posts. That's all I'm asking.

That's YOUR job, not mine. I don't do the scum's footwork.

-DGB

[VP Baltar]

Ok, this is one epic game to try and catch up in after replacing. I'm through the end of the first day/scene and the little bit of inbetween at the bottom of page 23. I figure I will step in now and give some mental spew. This should give some people ideas of where I'm at and also give me a chance to put a little reference marker for myself. I'll try to keep this brief since I'm still 10+ pages behind and some of these comments may be liable to change.

My strongest reads are as follows:

Scum:

KY Krew (duh)

Hewitt (he was by far the scummiest player on-stage and I was quite surprised that on a whole he has received little attention, at least as of page 23. He was definitely the most active in trying to edge the town toward the bad choice.)

BageleatingCowFrog- particularly when dahill is posting stinks of scum to me. His reasoning for getting on to zwets lynch originally looked very opportunistic. I don't recall any substantial scumhunting here and most of the times when they posted it looked like busy work. I was pretty shocked when SL said he was reading them as strongly town.

Town:

Sottyrulez and ckd are the only real obv town reads I had from the on camera session.

Off screen Mighty Orbots and GoofballsandBalloons played a strong town game on D1. elmosorian also seems to be pretty pro-town to me and I definitely don't understand people jumping on him trying to work out the mechanics while he was scumhunting. That is a very pro-town move in this game.

Everyone else is pretty much in a neutral/mildly scummy category for me at this point.

I think the game got seriously bogged down when Talilan went off screen and the Gaspar spat began. Out of that whole mess I think Gaspar looks better as a whole, but both sides make some fairly shoddy arguments at points and I really hope the walls of text can be seriously pruned as the game progresses.

As a whole, I think D1 went fairly well. A bit too much attention may have been paid to the On Camera business when everyone should have been scumhunting a bit more. I read the day knowing that zwet was town (as I felt this would add to my ability to analyze the D1 wagon), but I think even if I hadn't I would have found that wagon awful. I think the only think I found genuinely scummy from him (that being something that wouldn't fit within his meta as null) was when he said he only votes for hammers. I've played with zwet plenty of times and this is definitely not the case. Other than that, I think the scum were quite happy to keep his name in the loop even though there wasn't much actual reasoning to back it.

---

Ok, I'm going to embark upon Day/scene 2 now (reading the scene first). If anyone has any specific questions or would like me to comment on something specific from D1, just say so. Otherwise my next post will probably be after I am fully caught up.

[VP Baltar]

This whole comment by Glork [about the Count being 99% innocent] to begin with was entirely ridiculous. Especially considering the roles aren't our actual roles anyway.

This is a really good point and completely did not occur to me. How the hell can you say a role is innocent when different actors can occupy that role? Gaspar may go way up in scumminess depeding on the answer to this (as if forgeting who hewitt was playing in the first scene wasn't bad enough). If it's already been answered sorry, but I needed to note this.

[Talilan]

Gaspar later said it was a joke.

No, I'm sorry, but I 100% agree with Hewitt here. Maybe if you had looked at one of your four biggest attackers and found any one of them to be reasonably protown, but you don't.

Because they're not? If they're attacking us for what I know to be crap reasons I'm not going to suddenly say "oh yer hehe I guess we have no idea, we

are

scummy." No, we're not, they are opportunistic scum. And contrary to your other point, this isn't a scummy move AT ALL. If we get lynched as scum then we all but clear four players right then and there. It's terrible play as scum. Scum try to plant false seeds and manipulate the town as you are doing by calling G&B pro-town, which looks as arbitrary as your incorrect declarations that MafiaJin and we are scummy. Because G&B have pretty much exactly the same suspects as us, it just happens in our case it's "OMGUS" because we were the ones who had the scummy attacks made against us to begin with.

From the moment someone disagrees with you, they're scum, and from the moment their top suspicions coincide with your top suspicions, they're protown (i.e., Thesp, G&B).

Yes? I already justified this attitude in my previous post. Just because you pull the clichéd scum move of claiming to find G&B town "in spite of them suspecting you" but we have the guts to call out our attackers as scummy doesn't make you more pro-town.

Talilan, what are the main points against the people you suspect, besides that they're suspicious of you?

Frankly I don't want to go over it again, I've been very clear in past posts. Your hydra (I think it was Shanba maybe) already complained about the back and forth detracting from the game. I am only addressing new points in this post.

I suggest you stop and think very long and very hard about what I've said about KY Krew. Especially look at the post where I absolutely rip into Talilan for saying that I should be lynched Day Two. And then I want you to tell me if you really think this is a valid argument at all.

Surely if you think we're scum you can come up with more than incredibly cheap and bad attacks. Obviously KY Crew is scum, that was never in question, we never took issue with the notion he is scum. He is still not presently on-stage and lynchable. I would like to see your lynch as soon as possible. It's quite simple. Obviously KY Crew is going to be today's lynch when we take him off-stage, which is in some respect regrettable as you're a more dangerous member of the scum-team.

And truth be told, this exploration makes me feel MUCH better about probably being lynched on D3 or D4. As long as Talilan dies as scum the very next day, I'll trade me for a scumbag anyday.

Yer I'll believe you're willing to lay down your life tomorrow when I see it.

More importantly, is everyone happy with going with the voting approach to the Monty Hall problem rather than random? We'd better sub in soon. I would add I'm skeptical of Gaspar's motivations for asking for people's opinions on the correct door to choose. Looks like a way he can incriminate townies later based on them not knowing which the correct choice is and thus getting it wrong.

- ortolan