Newbie 827 - Store Katana (Scum Win!)

[Wysp]

Do you think it's possible that they're partners?

I had considered that possibility, and in posts 2, 3, and 12 she seems pretty dead set against NAW. Now, that can either mean she's for real, or they're faking a fight. of course, that's a WIFOM, and I can't judge until we have more information either way. Personally, I think it might be likely.

[Messiah]

PBPA of NAW

Post numbers are ISO

0/1/2: Unimportant.
3: Claims vanilla
4: Unvotes me to avoid a quickhammer when I was at L-3; defends his vanilla claim
5: Says his claim is useless and didn't expect anyone to believe it anyway

My train of though for claiming townie already is the fact that i don't belive it has any bearing on the game whatsoever

This is an extremely odd statement.(Not to mention incorrect.)

7: Doesn't think Wysp is scum
8: In this post he says I'm not confirmed so I don't have the authority to decide if we're going to no-lynch or not. Obviously it shouldn't matter if I'm confirmed or not, no-lynching on d1 is anti-town no matter what.
9: This entire post is ridiculous.
10: Frustration?
11: Backtracks on the no-lynch things; Says Wysp has done the scummiest things but thinks he's just newb; says he would lynch n107 if he had to lynch someone
12: Says Wysp is just a newb; Says he feels weird about XScorpion
13: FoS' Xscorpion for saying he didn't know who he would vote for if there weren't any lurkers and asks if anyone else agrees with him
14: Pushes his case on XScorpion
15: Votes XScorpion
16/17: Quote wars with XScorpion
18: Defends himself against purple princess; pushes his case on XScorpion
19/20/21: fluff
22: Asks purple princess and Excedrin why they're voting him
23: This post says almost nothing using a lot of words.
24: FOS oramiuri because he asked Excedrin who to vote for
25: Tells Wysp he has to take risks to get scum to slip up.
26: He basically says that he isn't posting anymore today, and none of his opinions have changed at all.
27: Pointless. Content, please?

(I apologize for not including the post links like I did last time but that makes it take so much longer.)

Conclusion: Claiming vanilla is extremely anti-town, as is no-lynching; his defense for the claim is basically "it doesn't matter". Around ISO11 it occurred to me that he hadn't voted or really expressed any suspicions of anyone, at all. That says lying low to me. Similarly, in ISO13 he asks if anyone else agrees with him before he goes on to vote in ISO15, and it appears it takes me asking him why he hasn't voted yet before he votes. It's possible he waited for my "approval" of the XScorpion case before he voted as well. ISO22 feels like he was asking them to unvote. His ISO27 continues the trend of not expressing real suspicion of anyone.

vote:NewAgeWarrior

I had considered that possibility, and in posts 2, 3, and 12 she seems pretty dead set against NAW. Now, that can either mean she's for real, or they're faking a fight. of course, that's a WIFOM, and I can't judge until we have more information either way. Personally, I think it might be likely.

I don't think a purple princess/NAW team is even a factor. That level of bussing is extremely unlikely.

[Wysp]

Well, NAW is SI, it's possible he's encountered this tactic before. I'm not sure, so I'll set aside that possibility until we have further confirmation.

Has anyone played a game with NAW before? If so, have you encountered that
"Bussing" tactic?

But yeah, NAW looks the most likely option. I'll refrain from voting until I see a few more reactions to the result. Something else might turn up.

[julienvonwolfe]

Either NAW, being scum and being worried that someone was on to him, pegged the most active pursuer of a case against him and got lucky, or someone was talking when they shouldn't have. I mean, really. What are the odds of nailing the Doc on Night One?

*puts on IC hat*

This site has an honour code that basically says that people will always follow the rules. Talking outside of the thread when your role doesn't permit it is against the rules, and because of this, vague accusations like you've made here will probably be considered offensive by the players involved.

I understand that other sites may have other ways of playing, and that's fine. But that's how it's done here.


*takes off hat*

But that aside

and #### you mafia.

And I quote from the Mafiascum Wiki article "Finding Mafia":

Gloating (any form of "complaining" about how bad the previous night was, how the doctor/cop was killed, etc.) Similar to "congratulating the doctor".

I've seen it a few times myself, but not that often. This would be more evidence to NAW being worried.

Yes, this is a classic scumtell.

ust a theory as to why Excedrin was killed. He was on to something as far as the 3rd vote theory goes, or he was on the right track to catching scum. Its not much, but its something.

...or maybe that's what they want us to think! WIFOM.


@ Messiah; I admire the time and effort you're putting into your PPBAs, but I have to disagree with at least one of your comments. I wouldn't call NAW's 27 'pointless'. Full of WIFOM it may be, it also contains his thoughts on at least two players.

This is part of the reason I dislike PPBAs in general. Sure, it's helpful to read people in isolation, but mafia's a game of interactions and this doesn't really come through in a PPBA. Also - I'm not saying that this is what you've done - they tend to turn into tunneling and sarcastic comments, which is a little bit useless.

And about bussing - I don't think that you could describe their interactions as 'bussing'. Bussing would imply that they actually led a lynch on each other, which hasn't happened. Admittedly, there is a high degree of distancing going on, which is probably what you meant.

I shall read through the thread again before my next post.

[Messiah]

I wouldn't call NAW's 27 'pointless'.

Well, maybe pointless isn't the right word. It just seemed like he didn't really say anything at all.

I don't think that you could describe their interactions as 'bussing'.

I actually had the definition of bussing and distancing wrong. I should have said distancing.

As for the usefulness of PBPA's, I don't really understand your comment about interaction not coming through.

[Wysp]

This site has an honour code that basically says that people will always follow the rules. Talking outside of the thread when your role doesn't permit it is against the rules, and because of this, vague accusations like you've made here will probably be considered offensive by the players involved.

Oh, okay. So they musta gotten lucky, then. My apologies to anyone I might have implicated.

And about bussing - I don't think that you could describe their interactions as 'bussing'. Bussing would imply that they actually led a lynch on each other, which hasn't happened. Admittedly, there is a high degree of distancing going on, which is probably what you meant.

Yeah, that's what I was talking about.

[purple princess]

Your analysis is very well though out and put together. It certainly raises my attention at her ATM.

Why is your attention raised to me? becauase I still have my vite on you? Am I going to go the same way as Excedrin?

Do you think Excedrin would fit the "let's kill the most pro-town player" choice?

I agree, I also think that there may be a slight chance that Excedrin may have been killed on N1 as it would be really easy to frame NAW for it on day two, but this is only a slight hunch as now I am going around in WIFOM circles! I don't think NAW has helped matters by posting this "theory" on why Exedrin was killed, what I get from that post is I can't be scum, as scum surly wouldn't post why they killed who they killed, would they?

But yeah, NAW looks the most likely option. I'll refrain from voting until I see a few more reactions to the result. Something else might turn up.

This is just as bad as Oramiuri asking Excedrin who to vote for, just a lot more subtle, it's like saying I am scared to place a vote, as it may make me look bad, so I will see what everybody else thinks and the jump on a bandwaggon, I should be safe then!

FOS Wysp

[Wysp]

No, it's simply a lack of information. I don't want to jump on a bandwagon unless I think it is logical. I am not the kind of person who votes right off the bat; I measure people's reactions.

[julienvonwolfe]

Okay, after briefly reading the thread, we have seven left:

1. oramiuri
2. adamrights (replaced n107yuh in Day One)
5. Messiah (replaced S23181208 in Day One)
6. Wysp
7. purple princess
8. NewAgeWarrior
9. julienvonwolfe

The people we might categorise as lurkers are oramiuri (13 posts), and purple princess (15 posts). Adam also hasn't posted today.

I am interested in the situation unfolding between Wysp and Purple Princess. Wysp appears to be learning the rules of this site a bit, though still gets it wrong - see the lecture I gave him above. I'm going to give him less of a newb card from now on.

@ PP: You state that Wysp waiting to vote is just as bad as what Oramiuri did, and FOS Wysp. Yet you didn't FOS Oramiuri. Why not?

@ Wysp:

No, it's simply a lack of information. I don't want to jump on a bandwagon unless I think it is logical. I am not the kind of person who votes right off the bat; I measure people's reactions.

Surely you have plenty of information, given that we have a whole day's worth of posting to read through?


I'm torn as to where to put my vote at the moment. I want answers to these questions first, and I want NAW to reply to Messiah.

---

About PPBAs:

As for the usefulness of PBPA's, I don't really understand your comment about interaction not coming through.

Okay, some interaction does show through, but not as much as if you take notes or simply read through the thread. I guess I just have a few questionable examples of PPBAs in my head from games I've played in. One was in an experiment called amnesia mafia in which the game thread was deleted after each day to prevent re-reads, so I can't link to that. However, here's another. Both Porkens and Issac are townie:

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 18#1397618

While I suppose they can be used to good effect, in this case I feel that it was too much, too strong. When you drown someone in a wall of text five miles long they can't hope to make a reasonable response to it, and the aggressive language here I feel is unnecessary.

Perhaps I would feel differently had Porkens been successful in catching scum, but w/e. Do keep in mind that I'm not saying that reading people in isolation isn't handy - but I don't feel that it is the best method of analysing play. PPBAs are too easy to turn into 'make everything somebody does a scumtell'.

If you're going to ask what I feel the best method of scumhunting is, I would say that you should find a single point that doesn't gel, and focus on that until you get a satisfactory explanation. Then move on to another. I find watching how people handle pressure informative, and good cases can be built from even the smallest-seeming of contradictions.

[Messiah]

Alright, I see your point now. I think the tone and purpose of my PBPA's and the one you linked to are quite different though.

[purple princess]

@ PP: You state that Wysp waiting to vote is just as bad as what Oramiuri did, and FOS Wysp. Yet you didn't FOS Oramiuri. Why not?

I think Oramiuri was more of a newbie move, frightened to say anything out of place incase it is taken the wrong way. Wysp's post looks more scummy to me, very subtle about wording it, but generally the same thing said as Oramiuri. Also he posts this after a bit of pressure has been applied towards Oramiuri for the same thing.

[Wysp]

Surely you have plenty of information, given that we have a whole day's worth of posting to read through?

Well, I think that one of the most informative things to see people's initial reactions to the nightkill. I haven't seen them all, and I thought I might see something that would change my mind.

Also he posts this after a bit of pressure has been applied towards Oramiuri for the same thing.

I tend to be more active than Ora and I like to deal with questions before they pile up. It just gathers suspicion if you take time to respond.

[Tenchi]

Oramuiri will be replaced.

---

VOTE COUNT

(1) NewAgeWarrior - Messiah

Not Voting: oramiuri, NewAgeWarrior, julienvonwolfe, Wysp, purple princess, adamrights

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch

DEADLINE: October 1, 2009 12:01 PM PST

[Tenchi]

Welcome

RayFrost

!

Rayfrost will be replacing oramuiri effective immediately.

[RayFrost]

Hello everybody~

I am RayFrost, and I shall be the one replacing oramiuri.

Preemptively, I have to say that I'm not stalking you, PP, so don't worry

Anyway, I'll do a read up and stuff... then do a post and stuff... and then do responses and stuff... and more stuff.

Also, feel free to ask me any questions within the realm of reason. I can't say I'll understand Ora's reasons, but I can say that I can explain my understanding of the actions.

That's all for now

[RayFrost]

Also, I'm a slow reader due to my needing to be active in other games, so thank you for your patience.

[NewAgeWarrior]

Welcome RayFrost. I look forward to your opinions to this game so far. Fresh insight is always welcome.

@wysp
PP has played a game with me before. Which is awesome cause she seems to have it out for me.
also, i do not believe messaih is scum. the third vote theroy can apply to anyone in the middle (not the start or the hammer). It was just a though, but now, even to me, that theroy has little merit or relevance.

I was not aware that damning the mafia was a scumtell. Oh well.


@everyone
Does everyone still belive that my early game role claim is really scummy? At best its WIFOM, and none of youbelive it anyway, which is why i didn't care to say it.

Why is your attention raised to me? becauase I still have my vite on you? Am I going to go the same way as Excedrin?

It raised my attention because you have not been posting as much as i thought you were, and the pattern of your votes seem off. I never said anything about a vote, and your dumber than i thought for posting that. If I am not lynched today you will probably die tonite because it would frame my setup that much more perfectly.

Conclusion: Claiming vanilla is extremely anti-town, as is no-lynching; his defense for the claim is basically "it doesn't matter". Around ISO11 it occurred to me that he hadn't voted or really expressed any suspicions of anyone, at all. That says lying low to me. Similarly, in ISO13 he asks if anyone else agrees with him before he goes on to vote in ISO15, and it appears it takes me asking him why he hasn't voted yet before he votes. It's possible he waited for my "approval" of the XScorpion case before he voted as well. ISO22 feels like he was asking them to unvote. His ISO27 continues the trend of not expressing real suspicion of anyone.

Just to remind you, i didn't No-lynch, and also, you voted for the very same person i did, yet your saying i keep not expressing real suspicion. Your also saying all the things i did and said were scummy, yet you still followed my vote. What is wrong with asking other people for their opinions? you do it all the time. I also adressed the fact of why i didnt vote, and i FoSed scorpion. the fact that you asked me about my vote before i did was coincidence, i was going to vote for him anyway.

Similarly, in ISO13 he asks if anyone else agrees with him before he goes on to vote in ISO15

So i can't ask other people opinion now? what are you trying to prove by saying that?

Most things you are trying to get me with i have already clearly explained before (like why i had put votes on anyone untill much later), so please read more carefully or in a better context than you are currently doing.

I pretty much predict this day not going in my favor at all. Well, at least it will be fun.

[RayFrost]

I went to the store, now I'm back.

I'll start my reading from the 5th page and read from there. Expect an analysis when I'm done.

Depending upon how much focus I put into this, it'll take...

~1-4 hours.

[Tenchi]

adamrights

has been prodded.

[purple princess]

Also he posts this after a bit of pressure has been applied towards Oramiuri for the same thing

I tend to be more active than Ora and I like to deal with questions before they pile up. It just gathers suspicion if you take time to respond.

Your reply makes no sense to me.

PP has played a game with me before. Which is awesome cause she seems to have it out for me.

So you think the only reason I have voted for you is because we have played eachother before? Get over yourself, this is a compleatly different game and previous games have nothing to do with this one.

@everyone
Does everyone still belive that my early game role claim is really scummy? At best its WIFOM, and none of youbelive it anyway, which is why i didn't care to say it.

This is twice you have asked people indirectly if they think you are scum. Read the previous posts they should tell you the answers you are looking for.

I see my day one vote wasn't carried over....

VOTE NAW

[Wysp]

Your reply makes no sense to me.

I mean that you all are wondering about Ora because he hasn't responded yet. I saw that and I figured that it'd be beneficial to respond.

[purple princess]

Your reply makes no sense to me.

I mean that you all are wondering about Ora because he hasn't responded yet. I saw that and I figured that it'd be beneficial to respond.

Oh I see, you want this to seem like a town move beacuse you are more active than Oramiuri? I wasn't interested in that, I was just wondering why you thought you should post the same sort of thing as her but a lot less blatent. But I guess you are a lot more active I this makes it alright!

[julienvonwolfe]

@PurplePrincess: You don't find anything that Wysp has done suspicious?

Not really, I didn't really like the whole no lynch thing, but that is such a newbie thing to do, almost every newbie game has at least one person who thinks this is a good idea, untill it is explained to them that this is really no help to anyone apart from scum.

@ PP: You state that Wysp waiting to vote is just as bad as what Oramiuri did, and FOS Wysp. Yet you didn't FOS Oramiuri. Why not?

I think Oramiuri was more of a newbie move, frightened to say anything out of place incase it is taken the wrong way. Wysp's post looks more scummy to me, very subtle about wording it, but generally the same thing said as Oramiuri. Also he posts this after a bit of pressure has been applied towards Oramiuri for the same thing.

You've said that Wysp was a newbie before, yet you now appear to have changed your mind. Why?

[purple princess]

You've said that Wysp was a newbie before, yet you now appear to have changed your mind. Why?

Wysp has shown some newbie moves in this game imo, but posting about waiting to see what everybody else thinks before making his next move, espeically right after Oramiuri has been challenged for the same thing just seems a little odd to me.

[Messiah]

Just to remind you, i didn't No-lynch, and also, you voted for the very same person i did, yet your saying i keep not expressing real suspicion. Your also saying all the things i did and said were scummy, yet you still followed my vote.

You didn't express suspicion of anyone until you FOS'd XScorpion, and haven't expressed any suspicions since then. As for "following your vote", at no point in my post did I say your reasons for voting him were scummy. In fact, I agreed with them.

the fact that you asked me about my vote before i did was coincidence, i was going to vote for him anyway.

That's fair enough, but as I said the way it came off to me was that you were almost waiting for approval.

What is wrong with asking other people for their opinions? you do it all the time.

I never said there was anything wrong with asking people for their opinions, that wasn't my point at all.

I also adressed the fact of why i didnt vote, and i FoSed scorpion. the fact that you asked me about my vote before i did was coincidence, i was going to vote for him anyway.

At the time of your FOS did you feel XScorpion was worthy of a vote?