Newbie 835: Game Over

[yabbaguy]

NO! I didn't want a hammer! We haven't even heard from FA, we've got other people with questions on the table, no claim from Double A, etc. etc. etc.

HOS: YamiJoey

for the abrupt

This was a huge strategic blunder on your part. The rules in all Mafia games are that once the hammer is dropped, Day over. A normal lynch is unrevocable, as the rules clearly put it, as do all other rulesets. This is scummy since it truncates discussion by a massive amount.

You wanna claim now AA?

(Twilight discussion, I'm assuming is permitted. It typically is.)

[Thok]

I have no problems with discussion during twilight.

Final Day 1 Vote Count

Double A (5): (Humble Poirot, orangepenguin, yabbaguy, Webz, YamiJoey)
Kirbyoshi (1): (Devotress)
YamiJoey (1): (Kirbyoshi)
Webz (0):
Humble Poirot (0):
Devotress (0):
fallen angel (0):
yabbaguy (0):
orangepenguin (0):

Not Voting (2): (Double A, fallen angel)

Double A has been lynched. He was a

vanilla townie

.

It is now Night 1. All choices are due by noon PDT, Tuesday September 8. If I receive choices earlier, I will open the thread earlier.

[Thok]

Humble Poirot is dead. He was a

vanilla townie

. It is now day 2. With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Deadline set for noon PDT, September 29.

[Devotress]

May aswell get the ball rolling

Vote YamiJoey

I was back and forth on him for town or scum, but man that hammer...

[Webz]

HP, that sucks. . Anyway, any possible reason why? Kirby's little fight with him? But that seems too obvious. But then, maybe that's what they wanted us to think. But that sends us into WIFOM loops. Anyway, I still think it would be a bad move on Kirby's part.

Okay,

vote:YamiJoey

Do I really need to give a reason? He hammered a townie (well, he hammered, regardless) without good enough reason and much, much before we wanted the game day to end. I'm not gonna buy a newb argument, as I didn't in AA's case, though he probably could have put something decent together in another TWO WEEKS. Oh, and he definitely should have read the thread. Read this:

And yes, L-1. But I'll see to it personally that anyone who hammers will get lynched. Please do not, because if you're town, you're going down, and that won't help us at all.

I really don't want to have to do this, YJ. But we don't have much choice.

Oh, and today, please don't hammer until a week before the deadline, unless it is pretty much universally accepted that we want them to go down and we want them to go down right at that second. Which is unlikely. And don't hammer at all without a very good reason.

[YamiJoey]

I really don't want to have to do this, YJ. But we don't have much choice.

Oh, and today, please don't hammer until a week before the deadline, unless it is pretty much universally accepted that we want them to go down and we want them to go down right at that second. Which is unlikely. And don't hammer at all without a very good reason.

ie. Unless it's YamiJoey? Yeah; I get that.

There's pretty much no defense here. What I'm being put up for is there for everyone to see, and was a mistake on my part.

Anyway; here's what I have to say about a few people:

Fallen Angel:

Been inactive and it was left late until the deadline was closed. Could be a sign.

Kirbyoshi:

The most scummy of anyone on the thread. If my oppinion still counted; there'd be questions going to him.

Webz:

Fairly Townie. Close to being straight up confirmed.

My three pence.

YJ

[YamiJoey]

EBWOP: That first comment was intended in jest. I'm just a bit pissed at how this day is going to go. I've tried my best to make accusitions and stuff, and by killing off the wrong person I've condemned myself. I just hope that the Doc gets the right person tonight, because if not I'll get LVP for sure. If they do; I might just be in with a chance of not doing.

YJ

[Thok]

Mod note: I've deleted a Bah post.

[Humble Poirot]

BAH POST:

lol... I was expecting this...

I'm truly sorry I was absent during this weekend and did not have a chance to post...

Good luck. Go Town!

Make me proud.

[Devotress]

Heh, humble poirot posted under another name at first.

[Webz]

I really don't want to have to do this, YJ. But we don't have much choice.

ie. Unless it's YamiJoey? Yeah; I get that.

Well, if it comes down to no discussion because we know that no one's going to unvote etc, and you'll die. I don't want you to be lynched if you're a townie. But really, we don't have much of a choice. Also, getting angry is something scum do, often. I'm not going to dwell on this, because if I was you, I'd be pissed off too. If I was town or scum.

There's pretty much no defense here. What I'm being put up for is there for everyone to see, and was a mistake on my part.

No, you can't discount what's been done. You can, however, make a stronger case against someone else, but good luck with that.

Anyway, you said before about keeping thoughts to yourself before. There's no reason not to voice them now.

What were they?

Anyway; here's what I have to say about a few people:

Fallen Angel:

Been inactive and it was left late until the deadline was closed. Could be a sign.

Kirbyoshi:

The most scummy of anyone on the thread. If my oppinion still counted; there'd be questions going to him.

Webz:

Fairly Townie. Close to being straight up confirmed.

Fallen Angel probably just isn't here.

Thok: I think we need a prod on FallenAngel

Kirb seems scummy to me, but it's the kind of scummy that any scum with 1/10th of a brain could easily avoid. However, scum normally only show one scumtell that's pretty huge that they overlooked before posting. Case and point: Exalt in newb 818, assuming that there's a doc when all is known by the town is that there's a cop.

That's what I see now, in you.

And YJ, can you answer me this: Did you read my post? About NOT lynching AA.

And HP said something about expecting the lynch. Is there anything that would suggest that scum would deliberately want to lynch him? Possibly to frame Kirby. Or was he just scared? I knew that I didn't want to get lynched last night. [/i]

[Thok]

Thok: I think we need a prod on FallenAngel

Prod sent.

[YamiJoey]

Yeah; I got that post in the Night and realised that today was going to be painful after it.

I know that this won't prove me as a Townie; but if I were Mafia; I'd've hit Webz last night. I know that people will just say "Yeah; but if you're Mafia you're not going to tell us the truth in anything", but w/e.

On Kirbyoshi; the only person I actually think is Mafia on here right now:

He starts in the scummy way of 'random voting' for a player who voted for him.

He FoS' me for no reason. (He did explain later, but at the time there was none.)

Exagerating on how many votes he had. I think this might've been a way to make people calm down on him in case there was an "accidental lynch" sort of situation, where people were so blinded by wanting to lynch someone; they made the evidence fit themselves. (Don't know myself if this is Townie/Scummy, but it raises questions for sure.)

The fact that he 'called me out' on 'helping Mafia'. IMO giving out what Mafia would/should be doing helps the Town more than Mafia. Mafia can night-talk, so they can keep things a secret.

I know I'm under suspicion; so anything that I say about him pushing me as scum won't seem like a scum thing, but he was pushing it all through yesterday. It was like he was looking for someone (Webs, HP, then me) to exploit and then when he got to me it was successful. He also took back his 'Threat to vote HP' and made sure it was known. Even before HP was killed that was hella-scummy to me.

HP being killed does make it a little obvious, but it could very well be a double bluff on Kirbyoshi's part. He does seem like he knows what he's talking about, even just a tad.

YJ

[Webz]

Yeah; I got that post in the Night and realised that today was going to be painful after it.

Before you hammer, you should read the whole day. Oh well.

I know that this won't prove me as a Townie; but if I were Mafia; I'd've hit Webz last night. I know that people will just say "Yeah; but if you're Mafia you're not going to tell us the truth in anything", but w/e.

I think scum didn't want to lynch me

because

I'm the obvious choice. That leaves no room for nightkill reasoning speculation against other people, and if we have a doc, it was probably quite likely that I would be protected. Not to sound big-headed or anything. . However, tonight they're not necessarily going to do a similar thing.

On Kirbyoshi; the only person I actually think is Mafia on here right now:

He starts in the scummy way of 'random voting' for a player who voted for him.

He FoS' me for no reason. (He did explain later, but at the time there was none.)

Exagerating on how many votes he had. I think this might've been a way to make people calm down on him in case there was an "accidental lynch" sort of situation, where people were so blinded by wanting to lynch someone; they made the evidence fit themselves. (Don't know myself if this is Townie/Scummy, but it raises questions for sure.)

The fact that he 'called me out' on 'helping Mafia'. IMO giving out what Mafia would/should be doing helps the Town more than Mafia. Mafia can night-talk, so they can keep things a secret.

Random voting is not a strong scumtell. As is pretty obvious by the fact that AA flipped town.

And what do you think about kirb vs HP? Is this a scumtell? I know you did in the quote below, but not that adequately. Do you think that testing HP was the only reason for this?

Having a case for anything they think is a scumtell is not a scumtell. Though being self-defensive can be. You're defending yourself here though, too.

I know I'm under suspicion; so anything that I say about him pushing me as scum won't seem like a scum thing, but he was pushing it all through yesterday. It was like he was looking for someone (Webs, HP, then me) to exploit and then when he got to me it was successful. He also took back his 'Threat to vote HP' and made sure it was known. Even before HP was killed that was hella-scummy to me.

HP being killed does make it a little obvious, but it could very well be a double bluff on Kirbyoshi's part. He does seem like he knows what he's talking about, even just a tad.

A very interesting point. Kirby did seem as if he was pushing to find a weak person through not very serious. This is very interesting, as he seems to only step up his case on you after seeing that you're not acting that strongly. However, you did the same thing, or it could have been seen as the same thing, with your weak FOSs at me and AA. You didn't, however, have as much success as he had. Though you did throw a lot of the evidence away when you made that hammer, so Kirb wasn't actually responsible for starting the case against you.

@ people with the most experience: What's your experience with such WIFOMs? Would newbs take such a risk of being guessed correctly very often? Or does this essentially clear kirby? Or is it a null-tell either way? (I'm not asking anyone personally, because a single scummy response could knock town.)

I also think that HP may have been lynched for playing as if he's a cop. Not strongly, but slightly. I believe his strong defensive positions might have been interpreted as such. More than anyone else, I think. Though, obviously, he wasn't.

Also, I would like to see if we can get a consensus not to post who we think is acting the towniest. We want as much room for error in the scumteam as possible. If you're going to say that you think someone's town, then do it by more subtle means or group people together, etc.

Also, we shouldn't be using only day 1 evidence to lynch people. This could leave scum, if they're, say, Yabba, Devotress, Me or Fallen Angel, in a great position to sit back while the people who acted strange in day 1 get lynched one by one.

[yabbaguy]

I know I was going to go for Joey, but something hit me last Night that I think might be worth bringing up here.

Vote: Kirbyoshi

This is where I would like to begin an experiment with a new scumtell: Reversed Scumhunting Methods. This is largely based on the "Treatise of Arguing" thread you can find in Mafia Discussion. (link)

You notice there are two modes TSQ mentions in this topic, Discovery and Convincing. You're supposed to do the first mode before you start the second one. To me, Kirbyoshi did them in reverse. In post 58, he asks "Afraid I'll out as you scum?" and other cutting questions. Later, his scumhunting and his voting are actually remarkably docile, like you would've expected up front, despite that now he's upgraded to a vote on Joey. THIS is where the pursuit should've been happening. Yet I see him trying to act reasonable with Joey, almost helping him. That's not right.

The reason this is scummy is because a scum's main objective is to convince the town that a townie is the best lynch. Since they know the answer to our puzzle and they don't want it solved, they may try to do everything they can to try to immediately cast the spotlight on the wrong person as fast as they can before it falls on the wrong person. That FoS on Joey, the impulsive question above on HP, all that. I think it was just trying to look more for attention than to actually scumhunt.

Then his comparative docility in what should've been the second phase is probably more him sitting back and enjoying the mayhem ensuing over Double A and YamiJoey (surprisingly, I felt it was even more the latter) getting all the attention and not him. Fabulous for Kirby.

His reverse shift is exactly how the scum would be playing this game. Take the reins, steer the wrong way, and laugh in your head as everyone tries to correct your misdirection.

[Webz]

I also see eye to eye with you on the Kirby thing. But is he just a less helpful and maybe a less likeable mafia player in general, or actually scummy? I'm undecided. And do we really want YJ to slip under the radar for his hammer that was so disastrously anti-town.

We've already got a vanilla claim from YJ, which means we're not putting a power role (or its uncovering) at risk one bit. Though I do think that we've got an AA 2.0 here, because their mistakes and experience that isn't that relevant in this kind of game is pretty much the same. If he's scum though, he could be easily playing the AA card, which is kind of ironic (seeing as he hammered) though still possible. I think that YJ is town, though, myself.

[Kirbyoshi]

Please realize I never said I was suspicious of AA. If I were scum, I would jump on the bandwagon at some point, to lynch a townie, which is scum's main objective (Post 164). I'm honestly kind of disappointed that I'm coming under fire for being the first one to be suspicious of YJ. My vote was the only one on him yesterDay. I think I said before, the hammer is probably not just a newbie mistake. So, just like yesterDay, but with at least some support now...

Vote: YamiJoey

[yabbaguy]

@Webz-165: The other thing is that I'm reasonably sure that either Yami or Kirby is scum. HP was going after Kirby late and Yami early, despite having a vote down on Double A. Perhaps Kirby panicked and thought he was going to be next.

@Kirby-166: I know you didn't suspect Double A. However, a good scum tactic would be to stay off a vanilla wagon so you can say "Well it's not my fault he got lynched." All that matters is that it's an adversary. Scum can take it any way they can have it.

Also, I don't think you quite got the gist of my point. I'm saying that you're doing this game entirely backwards. You've swapped your order of operations, and that leads to said scummy interpretation explained in that post. I don't know why you're telling me I'm suspicious of you for the latter reason you're outlining, that you're the "first suspicious" of him.

[Kirbyoshi]

Yabba: That was more a facetious comment (the one about me being the first one to vote him, not necessarily the first to show suspicion of him, I mis-spoke). Also, are you really only voting me because of a "new scumtell" you're experimenting with? IMO, it could turn out to be not a scumtell at all. And...

I know you didn't suspect Double A. However, a good scum tactic would be to stay off a vanilla wagon so you can say "Well it's not my fault he got lynched."

[yabbaguy]

It's all your wine, Kirby, if you catch my drift.

Good night. I'll be back tomorrow or the next day.

[orangepenguin]

Okay, so I am a bit behind, but from what I've seen, I really don't like the hammer on Double A, and had I been active at that point, I'd probably have unvoted. I still need to re-read to fully comprehend what exactly happened, but not a fan of the hammer.

But big red flags are going off with this YamiJoey wagon. He is already L-2. Day 2 just started today, and yet a speed wagon has formed. We have 21 days until the deadline. There is no reason to rush. At all. I am bit of an impatient player - I am not a fan of long, drawn out games, but then again, lynching someone in a day is almost always bad.

I am not opposed of a YJ lynch. Like I said, I need to read to fully comprehend everything, but hammering isn't a scum tell. I've hammered (WIFOM ALERT) just as much as town as I have as scum in past games, sometimes because of my impatience. It's something I personally have to improve upon as a player, but being impatient is not good, especially if you're town. Not sure if YJ was impatient or not, but newbies tend to be really eager, and speed lynch people. It always happens.

Had YJ claimed scum, then a speed lynch wouldn't be such a bad thing, but he hammered. It took 5 (right?) people to lynch Day 1, not one. Scum weren't necessarily on the wagon (scum sometimes stay off a wagon in order to appear more pro-townie, since they know the person about to be lynched is actually town, so they think it will give them townie points), but it's a good possibility, especially if we're talking newbie scum.

I need to re-read/catch up though. I suggest everyone do the same, before you go and lynch somebody.

But we have 3 weeks.

USE IT

. Time is town's biggest tool. You might be TOTALLY convinced of YJ's guilt, but why not spend the next two weeks on his case (or whoever, it doesn't HAVE to be him), so you can get more information out of him? Maybe if he is scum, and if he is lynched, whatever he said will lead us to find more scum. Less discussion, less info. The only people that helps is scum.

[Devotress]

I'm going to go ahead and

Unvote Yamijoey

L-2 is a little bit easy to quick hammer
I totally think he's scum still, but what orange penguin was saying is right. I was behind a speedy lynch, but we do have time. And there is some good discussion going on right now. I'm going to bed now, but i'll try and have one of those big summary of every player posts tomorrow morning.

[Webz]

Guys, no reason to put him at L-1. FOS: Kirby for putting him at L-1. L-1 guys, not L-2. We need only 4 to lynch, and we had a massive 3 on the wagon. We want this day to last 3 weeks, most likely. Our day one was much

So, just to stop any shenanigans:

unvote:YamiJoey

The reason that AA was at L-1 in the first place was to put very real pressure on him, because he hadn't responded to an L-2 in any real way. The wagon was for pressure, as none on it wanted him to get lynched. YJ thought differenly though, obviously. I DIDN'T WANT HIS LYNCH. HE WASN'T EVEN MY #1 SCUM TARGET.

Let's have a look at the numbers here:

If the person we lynch is scum, and someone gets nightkilled: We have 4 town and 1 scum. Easily possible to win as town.
If the person we lynch is town, and someone gets nightkilled: We have 3 town and 2 scum. Extremely likely scum win, as quicklynching is very, very dangerous.

So we shouldn't lynch YJ just because he acted anti town. If people think he acted scummy enough to merit a lynch, then we can lynch him, but we have to be EXTREMELY CAREFUL.

I'm still willing for a YJ lynch, however. As is Devotress, obviously, and Kirby. He'll get lynched at the end of the three weeks unless we have a really good case on anyone else because that hammer was very suspicious.

[Devotress]

Webz: Very townie. Putting Double-A at L-1 was a little scummy, only because Kirbyoshi(the other person likely to go that week), did not have a vote out on double-a yet, it was like it was setting it up for kirby to hammer it(of course then yami came along). That said, I genuinely believe the reasoning he said for putting it at L-1 and he's the person I'm most sure is townie in this game.

YamiJoey: Hammered a Townie. I believe he's scum. Not much else to say unless he posts more compelling arguements

fallen angel: Post please.

yabbaguy: Is actively trying to scum hunt. seems townie for now. It doesn't hurt that his ideas of who scum are seems to be the same as mine.


orangepenguin: No real read on him yet, seems to be giving sound and townie advice though.

Kirby: I thought he was scum last game day, and he did something today that was totally sneaky. I actually didn't catch it, but, as webz pointed out:

Vote: YamiJoey

Guys, no reason to put him at L-1. FOS: Kirby for putting him at L-1. L-1 guys, not L-2.

It's possible Kirby posted the wrong little symbol, or possible he missunderstood where the vote was at, but I can't shake the feeling that he was trying to trick someone into hammering.
With that said, for now I want to

Vote Kirbyoshi

.

[Devotress]

Votecount puts them Kirby at only L-2 right? I don't want to be setting him up for a hammer either.