Mini 188: Texas Holdem Mafia - GAME OVER!

[Thesp]

bunch of sensical stuff

I'm feeling like an idiot right now. While I doubt there's anyone who would say they don't want to have someone go all in against them, I agree that such a strategy will not identify power roles as I'd previously suggested. Ugh. My mind be silly. My "this is totally, insatiably, horribly wrong" is hereby retracted in the name of sanity. Sorry about that.

[LoudmouthLee]

Vote Count:

Dranko20- 2 (Kristocker, Thok)
Emptyger- 1 (Thesp)
Iammars- 1 (Aelyn)
Aelyn- 1 (Quagmire)
Bamboomancer- 1 (Iammars)

Not voting (6): Emptyger, Rajhcpfreak, Rajhcpfreak, Dranko20, Bamboomancer, Maximus

7 to lynch.

Chip Count as of post #76

Bamboo - 9
Thok - 7
Emptyger - 6
Maximus - 5
Aelyn - 5
Dranko - 5
Thesp - 5
rajrhcpfreak -4
Iammars - 2
Quagmire - 2
Kristocker - 2


If by Wednesday, posting doesn't pick up, I will be replacing the low stacks.

[EmpTyger]

Sorry, been a little busy and don’t have the best access- composing this quickly and don’t have time to read over things as well as I’d like to.


Thesp:

The best use of the all-in mechanic is that the first person about to be lynched can all-in another, as I outlined in [12] and Bamboo repeated [51], which no one has presented any objection to. But this strategy doesn't depend on chip counts.

I've italicized the part of your statement with which I take issue. The strategy

does

depend on chip counts, unless you plan on only going after people with high chip counts. This is, in what you mention in the second paragraph, a sort of "daytime vig", albeit not a voluntary one. Again, the ideal scenario is one where everyone has a similar (or equal) number of chips. This not withstanding, if townies are the ones who have the most chips, then if they are ever pressured to be lynched, they can have a greater range of targets to choose from. I'm also loathe to dissuade people from posting, as people's posts are the best way to catch scum. That being said, I do think that judging quality in people's posts is

more

important in this mafia game than in most. Contentless posts won't do.

I’m pretty sure my second paragraph showed how chip count is immaterial? The all-in mechanic used that way can test an additional 1-2 people/day without drawback. If the person threatened with a lynch cannot all-in the next most suspicious player, then that next most suspicious player must be able to all-in the player threatened by the lynch.

Consider the possibilities of innocence/guilt with A and B. Let’s say A was about to be lynched, and thus is pressured to all-in B, the next-most suspicious player. In each case assume A’s chips >= B’s chips, thus A is pressured to go all-in against B.
A=i, B=i: A dies. The town, which would have lynched innocent A, instead confirms B as innocent and lynches someone other than these 2 most suspicious players.
A=g, B=i: A dies (likely from lynching). Nothing really can be concluded, but at the very least a scum is killed.
A=i, B=g: B dies. The town kills scum and still has the day’s lynch.
A=g, B=g: B dies (or A dies from lynching). Nothing really can be concluded, but at the very least a scum is killed.

The same thing but with A’s chips < B’s chips, thus the town instead pressures B to go all-in against A.
A=i, B=i: B dies. The town, which would have lynched innocent A, instead confirms A as innocent and lynches someone other than these 2 most suspicious players.
A=g, B=i: A dies. The town kills scum and still has the day’s lynch.
A=i, B=g: B dies (likely from lynching). Nothing really can be concluded, but at the very least a scum is killed.
A=g, B=g: A dies (or B dies from lynching). Nothing really can be concluded, but at the very least a scum is killed.

The outcomes are essentially the same, especially considering that the alignments of A and B can’t be known before the fact.

As for the possibility of a cop being able to perform a vigilante kill, the successful all-in would expose the cop just as much as him naturally revealing himself.

Can you provide any specific, hypothetical example in which the fact that A’s chipcount > B’s would matter? I’m not seeing it, and I’m surprised I’m the only one.

Though I do agree about contentless posting- I want to reread the thread with that in mind.


Mod:
Can that cocktail waitress bring me a glass of warm milk? I’ll tip a chip if necessary.

[Aelyn]

Consider the possibilities of innocence/guilt with A and B. Let’s say A was about to be lynched, and thus is pressured to all-in B, the next-most suspicious player. In each case assume A’s chips >= B’s chips, thus A is pressured to go all-in against B.
A=i, B=i: A dies. The town, which would have lynched innocent A, instead confirms B as innocent and lynches someone other than these 2 most suspicious players.
A=g, B=i: A dies (likely from lynching). Nothing really can be concluded, but at the very least a scum is killed.
A=i, B=g: B dies. The town kills scum and still has the day’s lynch.
A=g, B=g: B dies (or A dies from lynching). Nothing really can be concluded, but at the very least a scum is killed.

The same thing but with A’s chips < B’s chips, thus the town instead pressures B to go all-in against A.

Can you provide any specific, hypothetical example in which the fact that A’s chipcount > B’s would matter? I’m not seeing it, and I’m surprised I’m the only one.

You aren't alone - I agree completely. The only possible case is when A is the only significantly scummy (ie. lynchworthy) person, and has hardly any chips. How do we realistically decide who should go all-in on him, or do we ask him to plusplus his chipcount (which is borderline rulebreaking) until he can - and even then, how do we decide who he goes all-in against?

To (help) remedy this slight problem, I propose that from now, we not only vote for the most suspicious (as normal), but

pseudovote

for the person who's second most suspicious, in our eyes.

Mod, in theory, if we were to adopt pseudovoting for the person we consider second-most suspicious, would you a) ignore it for official votecount purposes, and b) keep a tally for us (We'd all tip you a chip, so it's not like you're getting nothing out of it )?

Actually, scratch that last part. I figure that this thread's already enough work for you; we don't need to give you more.

[kristocker]

I'm finally starting to get the A/B mechanic proposed. But I'm still not sure what I think about it. The pseudovote seems to be a plausible way to pick who would go all-in. I know that I have a primary, secondary, and tertiary scum choice right now, so it doesn't seem to be a too far-fetched way to choose an all-in victim. We need to be careful to allow time for claiming. If the doc or cop is chosen to go all-in against an innocent, we will be in big trouble.

(Since the hectic pre-graduation week is over, I should be able to post more now. Posting will be erratic this next week due to the New York trip, but I will try to keep up.)

[Bamboomancer]

I get what you're saying. I just don't want to be pointed at as scum simply because i'm vocal.

[rajrhcpfreak]

i do like the proposed A/B mechanic but there is a greater chance of revealing the cop/doc, right?


then couldn't the mafia go all in on each other and make it look like they vig. one of the mafia but in reality they just sacrificed one of thier own to get further in the game.

[LoudmouthLee]

Just a quick note (as I am teaching as we speak and the superintendent is nearby )

I must decline keeping track of the pseudovotes for you. The reason there is that I believe that the game should, for the most part, be played without the mod. I'm just here as background noise and fodder. If you're trying to implement a strategic element of the game, I'm going to have to decline. I hope you all understand. Maybe you can elect someone to keep track of that as well...

Emp wanted a glass of warm milk? (Takes a chip and gives him some milk)

Hint... you may not realize it now... but this is instrumental somehow in the game

[EmpTyger]

I claim total ignorance of any game-related effect ordering a drink had; my motive for doing such should become obvious at the end of my post. I can think of 2 possibilities of game effects involving ordering drinks, one of which quite worries me...
I’m unsure what is the correct play at this point. Thok, you claimed that you were just experimenting; can you say anything to clear this up?


The disagreement over all-in strategy honestly seems like a genuine difference of opinion, so even though I believe Thesp is wrong, I don’t really think that that implies he’s antitown. What concerns me more are those who stayed completely absent from this topic- figuring out chipcount and all-in strategies is clearly important.

Summarizing:
kristocker, Dranko, and Thesp thought townies having high chipcount was important.
EmpTyger, Thok, Aelyn thought relative levels were immaterial.
(Aelyn and Dranko had earlier experimented with boosting their chipcounts.)
Iammars has the postrestriction, so it’s understandable why he’s been absent.
Quagmire gave an excuse for being absent, but did post in other threads on Sunday.
rajrhcpfreak, Bamboo, Maximus have posted without taking a stand one way or another.

I’ll lurker

vote: Quagmire

, but I would like to hear more from the last 5 names above.


Bamboo:

I've actually seen it, for the most part, as daytime vigilante. It's not so much as not needing to have it but keeping scum from freezing the town out from having that ability if needed.<snip>

Scum cannot effectively use the all-in. If a scum is involved in an all-in, a scum will die.

I get what you're saying. I just don't want to be pointed at as scum simply because i'm vocal.

You seem to keep being afraid of being thought of as scum...


rajrhcpfreak:

i do like the proposed A/B mechanic but there is a greater chance of revealing the cop/doc, right?

It’s a lower chance than when lynching.

then couldn't the mafia go all in on each other and make it look like they vig. one of the mafia but in reality they just sacrificed one of thier own to get further in the game.

Absolutely. This possibility must be kept in mind.


Aelyn:
We could use FoSs to indicate pseudovotes, but honestly I think that it might get too complex to keep straight.

[Bamboomancer]

I have the following things to say.

When I first started in this thread I didn't know what was going to happen, and suddenly I was at the top of the chip count. I really don't have a good out here, as this was something that immediately put me on the defensive, which served to further pump up my points.

I honestly saw me having the most chips as a way to keep the scum from freezing an all in from happening. Yes, this means that I control the table and it means that if I was mafia I could sacrifice my buddy, but for reasons I don't want to give the mafia (but will if pressured) I don't think that's a good idea.

I am protown. Mabye you guys all disagree with what i'm doing, and that's staying on top of the chip count, but I think SOMEONE has to be up here to keep scum from freezing us out. If I have to go all in to prove it I will, but I'd rather not. As it stands now, I'm probably a prime mafia target so they can try to get my chips out of the pot tomorrow, so if you don't see me tomorrow don't be surprised.

Right now our best options are me and a lurker vote and if you want to vote me simply because I believe this is a good idea, fine, but don't lynch me before I get a chance to go all in. And if you guys DO lynch me before I get the chance to go all in, MAJOR FOS on the lynching vote, because they get all my chips.

And since this drink thing has piqued my interest..

LmL, do they serve bamboo margaritas here?

[Thok]

EmpTyger, I was just trying to see how closely this game resembles the real Vegas Hold'em experience. As far as I know, the only power my scotch has is the power to get me drunk. Which is why I'm sipping it slowly.

(Takes another small sip of scotch).

Bamboomancer, I think you need to take a deep breath and calm down a little. You can help us the most by paying attention to the game and looking for suspicious behavior in others, instead of defending yourself every post.

[rajrhcpfreak]

fos: Thok

i have a feeling that the scotch has an important tole in the game. i maybe wrong.

[Thesp]

Hint... you may not realize it now... but this is instrumental somehow in the game

In that case, I'd like to order a glass of cold milk. Whole milk, no cloudy water.

It might be worthwhile for everyone to try this in some way.

[Thesp]

Also, on that note,

FOS: rajrhcpfreak

. If you think the scotch plays some role in the game, why didn't you order one to see what happens?

[Aelyn]

I like this

excuse

perfectly valid reason to order alcohol.

May I have a double Vodka Red Bull, please?

[rajrhcpfreak]

Also, on that note, FOS: rajrhcpfreak. If you think the scotch plays some role in the game, why didn't you order one to see what happens?

my chip count is so low, i dont think it is worth wasting one right now. not to mention it could cause a negitive affect if your not mafia so somthing to that effect.

[Dranko20]

I'd like a whiskey please.

[kristocker]

I have been re-reading the thread, and there seems to be a consensus that this game is to be played like a real Texas Hold'em game - with a small blind, a big blind, and a dealer. That is how we play at my house. But we don't have waitresses at my house. If you want a drink, you have to get your butt out of your seat to get it. This must be a Vegas-style game, not a friendly game next door. In Vegas, the house is the dealer, not a player. There may be post restrictions on the blinds, but I doubt there is a dealer.

One thing I have noticed is that we are all working on the mechanics of the game and not on finding the mafia. Wait... *lightbulb in head.* If we are in Vegas, wouldn't the big shots all be mafia, not the 2-7 off-suits? 2-7 off-suit works in going all-in sense (since you generally cannot lose playing against that hand), but wouldn't the mafia, the people in power, try to rig it to where the flop was something like 2-7-7. In all this rambling I am trying to say that as we figure out the mechanics, we need to realize that just because the cop had a good hand, doesn't mean that all good hands belong to good people. I could be wrong about this, but right now, it sounds right to me.

As for the suggestion that everyone buys a drink, I'm not sure about it. Although it plays into the game somehow, I am going to keep my few chips until I either find out how or figure out a good reason for wasting a chip. Maybe it buys favor, maybe it is a way to lose your chips. I don't know yet. Mod, if I ask for a water, do I have to pay a chip? If it is free, I would like one. This is the best way I can think of how to get a drink without losing a chip. Plus, it is what I would order anyway.

[LoudmouthLee]

I didn't mean to confuse anyone. I'll just let you all know now, since the speculation has taken away from the game...

I spoke too quickly and am NOT going to include the interesting idea I had for the "tips"

No one knew about it, but it would have been fun

Please ignore and get back to Mafia.

[Bamboomancer]

*Mixes his own bamboo margarita*

Still have my FoS's on Dranko and Iammars, but they're not good FoS's. This has been a pretty long day and we should probably settle on a target pretty soon =/

[Thok]

LML, sorry for disturbing the game with my drink request.

That being said we need to be talking more. While timewise this has been a long first day, we haven't really said much, other than talk about game mechanics. Right now 6 people are voting, and two of those are the original random votes of lurkers. Heck, if anybody had posted a mere two times a day, they'd have 20 chips by now, with would be about twice the current chip leader.

Of course, I'll now hypocritcally say a couple words about game mechanics. I don't know if mafia will have strong hands or weak hands. Good players have won the World series of Poker by hitting a bad hand-the 10-2 is called a Brunson for a reason. (Doyle Brunson won the WSOP two years in a row by hitting a 10-2). Another thing to notice is that STD's nickname (KJ=Kojak) corresponded to the role of the hand, but there's no reason to believe that the mod will do that for every role.

I'm happy with my Dranko vote for now. But, I could also see going lurker hunting-Quagmire really should have posted again by now, and it might be useful for Iammars to use one of his three remaining posts for today to tell us his thoughts.

[Iammars]

Sure, I'll use on one of mine right now. First of all, I am not going to buy a drink. I am going to see if there is any difference.

Unvote

A high chip count is probably not needed. We can stage an all-in agaisnt any two players.
Also, let's get something straight here about the roles. I am the beer hand (72 unsuited). The mafia is not necessarly a bad hand/good hand thingy.
Also, my role is very similar to going all-in. If I die during the night, be very suspicious of the last person I attack that doesn't get lynched (right now... StryykerVerde).
Does anyone else seem like this might end up being a literal WIFOM?
Haven't gotten many scummy vibes from anyone yet.
Also, if I'm small blind now, I'm big blind tomorrow, correct?
Enough of my rambling! 2 left.
(YEAH! I JUST GOT A 256 MEG JUMP DRIVE FOR FREE!)

[EmpTyger]

So the drinks have no game effect (besides losing a tipped chip)?


I’m a bit concerned by the lurking- people need to state their suspicious, or the town will not have as much to work with on future days. I don’t think it’s time to start claiming.

Iammars’s [96] seemed very suspicious, but I’d rather focus on those not contributing than begin evaluating claims. However, does anyone see any harm if everyone reveals whether they hold a good hand or a bad hand? (I believe Q7 is the dividing line- it’s the lowest good hand.) While I don’t think this is how the mafia is determined, I can’t eliminate the possibility, and testing this hypothesis seems rather harmless. (To spell it out, I have a good hand.)


Iammars:
Don’t waste a post just yet, but next time you post please clarify what you meant in that post. At the very least, StryykerVerde isn’t in this game, so, huh???

[Thesp]

Vote: Iammars

. I doubt suit means anything, and I don't have a suit. Partial uninvited roleclaim is awfully suspect, and I don't buy it.

[Thesp]

Clarification for our mod and for form (no chip needed):

Unvote: EmpTyger. Vote: Iammars

.