Mini 842 - Less Flavor than English Food (Game Over)

[Idiotking]

Buddying would require Benmage to be able to defend himself. Since he can't, what you're doing isn't necessarily buddying.

[SpyreX]

I'm pretty sure he explained himself. Which was the whole "he's transparently town" business.

I'm digging all the semantics though.

[Idiotking]

I'm afraid if you're being sarcastic, you're going to have to be more obvious about it. I can't tell.

I disagree that he's explained himself. If you believe he has, feel free to quote/link posts in which he has.

[DeathRowKitty]

Two tangible reasons I suspect you:

1. In this post you unvoted for a crappy reason.
2. I often see you in the online player list, but you hardly ever post. Fifteen posts (I think that's how many you have) wouldn't quite qualify as lurking by my standards, but I would categorize you as a lurker given how frequently you are online.

Sounds reasonable, but I would be a pretty bad player if I didn't defend myself anyway.
1. I'm in an ongoing game with IK (we're both dead). His posts so far match well with his posts from the ongoing game, in which he flipped vanilla townie. The long post comment also refers to the mini quote war that occurred between IK and me in that game. (Everything I said in the past couple sentences could easily be found by reading, so I don't think I broke any rules)
2. I suppose this one is my fault. I do a lot of things that would make it seem as though I spend more time on the game than I actually do.

• I leave the site running while I'm not using it
• I re-read another game I'm in that was in night the past couple of days
• I've been collecting some data from past games to see if I can find something I can use for scumhunting (I'm not revealing what it is, in case it comes into play in this game)

Plus, I haven't found a huge amount to post about. Most of the game is focused around GD, IK/Benmage, and Reckoner. I don't think IK or Benmage is scum atm and I don't think we have enough to go on with Reckoner as of yet. I'm pretty much reduced to waiting for GD to post. I wish I had a town meta to show this, but I prefer not to lurk as either alignment. I enjoy mafia.

[bigmc109]

As far as the whole X-Y issue goes, I think Benmage stated that he just made an assumption that turned out to be wrong. There's really no other way for him to defend against this, it's just something you have to take his word for and leave it or think he's lying and use against him. But there's really nothing left in the X-Y issue that he needs to answer to.

[crypto]

Okay, some heavy text is coming up. This post is a response to Idiotking. If you don't care, skip it. My next post will be general a general response to pages 13 and 14.

Fair enough. If you never took issue with anything I said we wouldn't have much to discuss

I just wanted to be clear about this because I do respect your style. You're obviously a smart player regardless of your alignment. There are some things we agree upon; I simply am not invested in the Benmage debate like you are, so I'd rather nitpick the parts I disagree with than waste my attention span echoing the parts I find reasonable.

"He must be [scum]" kind of indicates tunneling ("scum" added in because it was said elsewhere in the sentence).

Now it's only "kind of" tunneling? "He must be [scum]" is conviction, not tunnel vision.

I can blame him for tunneling easily. Were three people suspicious of

me

,

I'd

be more likely to doubt

myself

than the case brought against

me

, simply because three people are less likely to be wrong than one.

Observe the Unholy Boldface of Doom. You're talking about what

you'd

do, not what Ben would do. People handle pressure differently. Some are more reluctant to admit defeat than others. Some are more likely to give up, or think they're wrong when they really aren't, than others. It's often an issue of pride as much as of correctness, and when you admit defeat in Mafia you may very well be signing your own death sentence. (Sometimes you realize it, sometimes you don't.) In this case, the argument pertains to Ben's alignment. If he admits defeat, he's getting the necktie.

But more importantly, when you say "I'd be more likely to doubt myself than the case brought against me"—I assume this translates to "The fact that Ben doesn't doubt himself makes him scummy," or, more concisely, "Ben's stubborn self-confidence is scummy." You're basically saying Ben should announce surrender, in which case his opponents will either

1. cut him a little slack but also scrutinize him closer than ever
   for admitting his supposed errors
   , or
   
2. crusade against him even harder
   for admitting his supposed errors
   .

So those are the two potential results of Option 1, Option 1 being admittance of defeat. There's a second route he could take. We'll call it ... Option 2.

Assume (well,

you

don't need to) that Ben's position is incorrect. Do you really expect Ben to choose Option 1—even if he does realize he's wrong—when he can stick with his guns and roll with Option 2? Bearing in mind outcomes A and B, Option 1 is a lose-lose situation. With Option 2 (assuming again—and that's a big assumption—that his argument is incorrect) he at least retains his pride, as well as the respect of those who already had town reads on him.

Also, it isn't three against one. I'm (very, very slightly) leaning town with Ben. I believe Spyre is as well. And I'm pretty sure other players take issue to varying degrees with your argument in general.

I don't think I'm tunneling, but then it's impossible for me to have an unbiased opinion on this point, so meh.

You've made very few comments about anyone other than Ben. GreenDude—maybe. But we're all in agreement about his alignment.

I also think you let Reck off the hook way too easily.

In the same post I'm responding to, you say Ben liked your posts because they were in your favor. Shortly after this post, Ben says he likes the style of it, too. That's sucking up.

Yes, you're absolutely right here; he does suck up, and he seems

too

friendly in light of the crude brutality he shows toward his enemies. But ... hm. I can't decide yet if you're giving it too much emphasis.

Maybe not to you, but in my experience townies have never buddied. I can only go by experience. And you yourself say that townies have to be careful. I think I'm safe saying that when Benmage defended RECK on a baseless assumption, he wasn't being careful.

You're correct here as well. He was probably too hasty in his defense of Reck. On the other hand, I can see how it would have been very easy for him to misinterpret Reck's vote as random or facetious ... But that's needless speculation, so I'll shut up.

You make a number of good arguments. I just don't think they add up to Benmage-scum.

[crypto]

Okay, guys, this is the part where I announce that GD-scum has panicked and flaked. Guilty! Guilty, I say!

---

I'd like Benmage dead, people. I don't see the GreenDude case.

*facepalm*

And I'd like to see a whole page go by with no namecalling. It'd be a nice change of pace.

Jackass.

His posts so far match well with his posts from the ongoing game, in which he flipped vanilla townie.

I'll have to do further meta work to see how he plays as scum. Maybe he's a good actor. Fair enough, though.

2. I suppose this one is my fault. I do a lot of things that would make it seem as though I spend more time on the game than I actually do.

I do all of this while logged in. And I never log out when I leave the website. But I hide my online status.

You're defense is fine by me. My points weren't very strong anyway. Now all you have to do is carve my gut out.

---

Updated table of suspects:

Scum Read

[col]

Bad Vibes

[col]

Null Read

[col]

Town Read

GreenDude

[col]

Red_Dye

[col]

Benmage

[col]

bigmc109

xRECKONERx

[col]

StrangerCoug

[col]

Idiotking

[col]

LlamaFluff

[col][col]

My Milked Eek

[col]

SpyreX

[col][col]

DeathRowKitty

Upgrades are in blue. Downgrades are in orange. DeathRowKitty doesn't deserve Bad Vibes as my suspicion of him is almost entirely gut, but he's damn close. Think I caught a couple of town tells on Llama, so I'll gamble a little there. Red_Dye is looking fishier with each post.

[crypto]

Oh, yeah, and I'm pretty certain that either Reck, Ben, or IK is scum. I can't fathom it being a misunderstanding between townies.

Reck and IK may be scum buddies (not likely: too obvious). Or Reck and Ben may be scum buddies.

Or

one might be mafioso and one might be serial killer or whatever other third party role.

...

I don't know why I'm posting this.

[LlamaFluff]

Hey, got a little bit of access, noticed that GD is at L-1

No one hammer him untill my read is finished. Quite serious about this.

[xRECKONERx]

BMC or DRK were on my case? Idiot was definitely on my case and yet he isn’t on the list. But sure lets cap and laugh and hope everyone else doesn’t see how logical I am and how illogical/crappy you and this case is.

All I can do is XD at your responses now because they're horrible in my eyes. And you didn't say DRK, bro. You said SC. Way to not even know who you listed as your top three suspects.

After you dumbass. That’s my point if I am wifoming so are you, so end it because its null which I’ve stated and which you keep rehashing.

What the fuck? I've not WIFOMed at all. Your whole "I wouldn't do this if I was scum" defense IS WIFOM. I'm done with the WIFOM argument. You have WIFOMed in my eyes, and I have not. I called you out on it and you proceeded to go "lol no u".

Okay. It can be scummy to buddy and it can’t be. So this is null. Again from my perspective when I initially answered it I didn’t see the buddy and looking back I don’t care. Yes I’m going to answer things directed at others from time to time. It happens. Dup/crypto did it to DRK. Shit just happens. This is a weakass point in a godawful case.

It's not just the fact that you buddied: it's the fact that you seemed to do so when it wasn't necessary. It's not like I was in danger of being lynched and you thought I was actually town so you came to my defense. I hadn't even posted or gotten a chance to respond and you were answering my questions for me.

It's not a weakass point. And, to the point, STOP ANSWERING FOR OTHER PEOPLE. IT'S ANTI-TOWN.

I disagree.

See above.

Your case as I just illustrated for SC and as I am illustrating to is godfuckingawful. The answers were fine. Infact I don’t see any other possible logical answers to most. Buddying is NULL. Bussing is NULL. WIFOM is NULL because it goes both ways. This whole fucking case is NULL. Goddamn morons.

Why don't you fly off the handle a little more? Jesus H. Christ, calm the hell down. Getting a little overly defensive, are we? It's not null. To call all those things null is absolutely and quantifiably wrong.

Fine then. Feel free to think I answered them poorly, but let’s leave it at that. Stop saying I’m not answering them because I clearly have, and I’ll stop trying to give you guys the benefit of the doubt that this wasn’t a case, and will recognize your ability to produce possibly the worst case in mafia history. Congratulations.

Kay. AtE, btw.

Again this is a false statement. BMC hasn’t been all over my ass, yet IK who has isn’t on the list. So your argument here falls short.

WHY THE HELL DID YOU PUT BMC ON YOUR LIST THEN

Phew, I was worried for a second that you might accidentally stumble upon logic. But no worries world. We are A.O.K

Good, good. Then I'm still good with my vote.

[StrangerCoug]

I'd like Benmage dead, people. I don't see the GreenDude case.

*facepalm*

I don't like pursuing lurkers, flakers, whatever you want to call them if there is another option, namely going after active people out of which I can get more information. People who vanish can be replaced. It's my personal play style, so get your head out of your hands.

[xRECKONERx]

Benmage is still scummy as hell in my eyes. Attempts to label me as distancing from him are baseless. I worked an 11 hour shift today so I'm not going to respond to a lot of stuff: partly because I don't have time, and partly because it's not worth commenting on.

[crypto]

All I can do is XD at your responses now because they're horrible in my eyes. And you didn't say DRK, bro. You said SC. Way to not even know who you listed as your top three suspects.

You're wrong. Reread.

I don't like pursuing lurkers, flakers, whatever you want to call them if there is another option, namely going after active people out of which I can get more information. People who vanish can be replaced. It's my personal play style, so get your head out of your hands.

GD isn't scummy because he lurks. His lurking builds upon prior suspicion.

Replacements are slippery. I don't like them. Replacing Brothernature, who never participated, is one thing, but replacing a highly suspicious player is a total different case.

My face remains in my hands.

[StrangerCoug]

If you don't like replacements, then there's nothing I can do to help that, so I won't try.

GreenDude's been yelled at for dice rolling in the RVS and I think the newbie card, am I correct?

[crypto]

If you don't like replacements, then there's nothing I can do to help that, so I won't try.

GreenDude's been yelled at for dice rolling in the RVS and I think the newbie card, am I correct?

More than that. Reread that page or two, good sir.

[StrangerCoug]

OK, the first half of the game so far doesn't look like he's being very helpful, and now that you've asked me to reread I've picked up him defending Benmage. Should I know anything else about GreenDude?

[crypto]

...

Iso-read him. He posts one big post and it's full of crap. I can't be bothered to put together all the points we've made against him. His random vote is scummy. The big post is full of fence sitting. He doesn't defend himself. He fails to participate in any conversation whatsoever. And so on.

[Benmage]

**Haven't read anything since my last post, internet died on me. Sketchy ninja wireless out here, here's what i had in word prior to the drop, will catchup on game.

Ok DRK who has 15 posts.

1:RV
2: That case on Greendude with the link to the newbie game. A weak point in my opinion.
3: Asks someones opinion, I don’t know who because its an iso read. (You’ll note I almost always quote who I am responding too even if it’s the post right above mine, because it makes iso reads much more comprehendible)
4: Says Reck is clearly an SK… This struck me as really really odd… Can you comment on this DRK please? Was it simply to be comical, sometimes that is difficult to portray through the internet.
5: Agrees with me that his initial case was weak but used it as a jumping point out of the rvs. Good point, but overall null in relation to town/scum. Votes IK for omgus me…irony
6:Ah this is where Dup/crypto answers DRK’s little question and :facepalms:
7: Notes a WIFOM point of the case on me. Sorta…I think…
8: Fluff( I thinks cuz its iso)
9: Votes Greendude, against generally weak useless statements by GD. Worth lynching over?
10: fluff
11: fluff
12: fluff
13: fluff/misread by me
14: Best post of the game thus far. It’s iso 13, all go read and reread and rereread.
15: More or less fluff.

All in all tough read because this game has been dominated by me defending myself from madness. So the things that struck me as odd that I may have thought suspicious when I made that list off the top of my head is that peculiar reference to reck being an sk and just a generally feeling that the reasons for voting GD don’t seem lynch worthy. Overall null read, still love that one post of his.

[zoraster]

Okay guys, I'm on vacation, but that's no reason to test me.

1. No, you absolutely may not use active games for any meta-game purpose in this one. I don't care if you're both dead. There are still plenty of ways that can alter the content of that game, which is not fair to anyone still involved in that game.

2. I've been lax about allowing cursing and the like. I generally feel more good conversation happens when people are unfettered. However, I don't want this to turn so vitriolic that we end up with people replacing out. I've seen it happen. Not everyone has to like everyone else here, but I will not accept over-the-top character attacks.

That is all. Vote counts tomorrow.

[DeathRowKitty]

4: Says Reck is clearly an SK… This struck me as really really odd… Can you comment on this DRK please? Was it simply to be comical, sometimes that is difficult to portray through the internet.

That part was mostly addressed to Reckoner and was in reference to this game (MME made the same reference with his random vote).

[DeathRowKitty]

1. No, you absolutely may not use active games for any meta-game purpose in this one. I don't care if you're both dead. There are still plenty of ways that can alter the content of that game, which is not fair to anyone still involved in that game.

Sorry. I didn't realize.

[xRECKONERx]

Off the top of my head that I recall certain play striking me as scummy would be:

Reck
SC
BMC

[crypto]

Hmm BMC may = DRK gotta re-read their iso.

[Red_Dye]

Vote: reck

Greendude doesn't seem to be here so I'm gonna go back to pushing my main suspect.

[crypto]

Vote: reck

Greendude doesn't seem to be here so I'm gonna go back to pushing my main suspect.

That's ... weird logic.

I asked you before to provide content. Please do so in your next post so I don't have to rage all over you.