Mini 839 -- Mafia Invasion! (Game Over)

[RedCoyote]

Just wanted to make a quick post, I'm going to be out of town for the weekend, and I expect some of the players may also have limited abilities to post. I'll keep this in mind when prodding or in any sort of extension decisions.

[popsofctown]

I latch on to other suspicious people whenever I'm at L-1, not only when i'm at scum L-1. It's protown to do that, I'm town so i don't want me to be the lynch, i want whoever i think most scummy to be the lynch. It's like you're using it against me that TMJ had the second highest number of votes, but that's actually the scummiest player in this game, and that's who i think should die. Porken is a distant second since his play seems disconnected and void of a town agenda... yes that's vague, that's why he's a distant third.


I don't see how anyone can defend TMJ. Is what he does pro-town? If it's not protown, it's unreadable or scummy. If it's scummy, we should lynch him. If it's unreadable, you still have to lynch him, he's a killa 9, and eventually you're going to have to err on the side of the noose because you can't figure out his alignment. Like... I don't get people saying, "let's not lynch him, because he's just an unreadable pile of goo, not scummy". You have to lynch unreadable piles of goo, they're just scummy.

If there's a reason to lynch me first, it's because Y.C was that level of anti-town idiocricy that i rarely see on someone who got a town-aligned pm. It shouldn't be because TMJ is just noise. Noise has to be lynched.

[DeathRowKitty]

It doesn't come off particularly well to me that you come in at L-2 and tell us we need to lynch the player who happens to have the second most votes. Whether or not you're doing that because you feel he's scummy, think about how that comes across.

You think an unreadable player is more important to lynch than someone who's scummy? That would be like scum deciding (knowing there's no doctor) that "Well we know Player X is a cop, but we should kill Player Y instead because we don't know whether or not he has a stronger role." Scummy players first. We can lynch unreadable players later if it's really necessary. At least give them a chance to prove their usefulness.

[sigma]

Scummy players first. We can lynch unreadable players later if it's really necessary.

QFT. In my opinion, TMJ is unreadable based on the knowledge we have right now. I'd rather lynch someone else.

[imaginality]

Also, slight FoS for Imaginality and DeathRowKitty. Their latest posts (L-1 vote, and 'someone hammer him now!') looks like an attempt to speedlynch pops.

I figured if someone wanted to speedlynch pops they probably would've done it the first time he was at L-1. And that an obvious quickhammer would put the hammerer firmly in the spotlight Day2 (if pops flipped town).

jammer's vote on pops (116) to put him at L-1 the first time looks more like an attempt to speedlynch. Not stating it's the L-1 vote is something that always looks a bit scummy. If pops flips town, I can see both jammer and TMJ as scum from the way they got on the pops wagon (among other factors).

1. Wouldn't we want to at least hear a claim from pops before lynch? This is my first closed-setup game, so I could be wrong about this.

1. Again, I figured pops already had a chance to claim at L-1 (post 118), so, given that he didn't claim then, I assumed he's probably either scum or vanilla townie.

I would like to hear more from imaginality, Porkens, and afatchic about the stalemate going on here.

By stalemate do you mean "Do we lynch pops now or wait and scumhunt some more?"

If so: I'm not opposed to holding off longer. If we hold off and find a better lynch for today, great. If we hold off and end up lynching pops, we might get some leads by looking at who was reluctant to hammer, if pops flips scum. Equally, if someone's willing to lynch him already, I think that's also useful to see who that is, whether pops flips scum or town.

The fact that my vote is still on pops shows I'm currently happy to see pops lynched if two other players decide they find him scummy enough to vote for. At the moment, with deadline not impending, I'm happy for people to make up their own mind about whether or not they want to do that. I don't yet feel inclined to argue that we should "OMG Lynch him now already!!"

I latch on to other suspicious people whenever I'm at L-1, not only when i'm at scum L-1. It's protown to do that, I'm town so i don't want me to be the lynch, i want whoever i think most scummy to be the lynch.

1

It's like you're using it against me that TMJ had the second highest number of votes, but that's actually the scummiest player in this game, and that's who i think should die.

2

Porken is a distant second since his play seems disconnected and void of a town agenda... yes that's vague, that's why he's a distant third.

3

I don't see how anyone can defend TMJ. Is what he does pro-town? If it's not protown, it's unreadable or scummy. If it's scummy, we should lynch him. If it's unreadable, you still have to lynch him, he's a killa 9, and eventually you're going to have to err on the side of the noose because you can't figure out his alignment.

4

Like... I don't get people saying, "let's not lynch him, because he's just an unreadable pile of goo, not scummy". You have to lynch unreadable piles of goo, they're just scummy.

5

1. You say that you want whoever you find most scummy to be the lynch, but saying you "latch on" to other suspicious people suggests that you are going by who other people find most scummy rather than who you find most scummy.

2. You say he's the 'scummiest' player, but 'scummiest' implies you have considered his scumminess in the context of the scumminess of other players. However, in post 118 (which could have been your last post in the game) you only mentioned TMJ. If you thought he was scummiest (as compared to being the only other person you've looked at) you should have given us your thoughts on at least some of other players too, any other scummy or possible scummy actions you noticed? I would feel quite a bit better about your play since replacement if you'd mentioned Porkens in 118 rather than just now, for example.

3. 'distant third', interesting, seems like you've subconciously put yourself top of that list...

4. Other possibilities include the unreadable player being cleared or condemned by an investigative role, flaking and being replaced by someone easier to read, starting to provide more useful contributions, there are other possibilities too. As DeathRowKitty and sigma said, lynching scummy > lynching unreadable. It's also better information-wise, because if the unreadable player flips town all you have is a bunch of "well I thought he was unreadable" reasons for voting him which are less interesting than the reasons for and against voting for a scummy player.

5. In 4 you said 'unreadable or scummy' but here you say unreadable is scummy. Not sure what to make of that, just noticing it.

[Vi]

DRK: Why do you think TMJ is Town (in line with this conversation about him being unreadable)?

At least four people find Jammer suspicious (I didn't express my suspicion of Jammer as clearly, but I did mention it in a recent post),

but he's better (IMO) to look at after alignments have been revealed.

Why?

----

I latch on to other suspicious people whenever I'm at L-1, not only when i'm at scum L-1. It's protown to do that, I'm town so i don't want me to be the lynch, i want whoever i think most scummy to be the lynch.

This statement bothers me. Are you doing this mostly because you're in danger?

The rest of your statement - "lynch all unreadables, just not me, pleeeeeeeze", essentially - is extremely scummy because it implies that we have to lynch -now-. Contrary to popular belief, we don't. Whatever happened to gathering more information? This reinforces the message everyone has been saying - you're willing to do anything to push the lynch off you; up to, including, and through demonizing whoever's most likely to convince everyone.

*cut by imaginality*
Or in other words, imaginality's Points 2 and 4.

This would be the part where I vote you, but I really don't want to end the Day before afatchic shows up. TMJ showing up and commenting about almost being the center of attention would be nice too.

[DeathRowKitty]

DRK: Why do you think TMJ is Town (in line with this conversation about him being unreadable)?

Well, I have little direct read on him. His actions have been strange, yes, but I don't see any of them as more likely to come from TMJ-scum as TMJ-town. Based on that, I would probably put him as neutral. What puts him at town is my mind is largely that I think pops is scum. People started paying more attention to TMJ after the YC wagon began and pops himself is attempting to fuel the TMJ wagon. Based on this, he's leaning town in my mind.


I don't want to explain too much about jammer at the moment. There are certain connections I think we should look more into with jammer when we know an alignment or two. I prefer not to give away too much now. It's better to present arguments against someone in bulk (That's why I didn't mention anything about jammer's second post until Cruciare's post saying he didn't like jammer's posts from the third onwards). Also, if jammer is scum, there's no reason to tell him what to avoid doing.

[popsofctown]

I'm not vanilla town, i'm doctor. Day 1 doctor death again.
I give up.

[DeathRowKitty]

>.<

Just about the last role I would have guessed from the way Y.C played...

Unvote

. I'm not willing to lynch a claimed doctor Day 1.

[Vi]

DRK: Why do you think TMJ is Town (in line with this conversation about him being unreadable)?

Well, I have little direct read on him. His actions have been strange, yes, but I don't see any of them as more likely to come from TMJ-scum as TMJ-town. Based on that, I would probably put him as neutral. What puts him at town is my mind is largely that I think pops is scum. People started paying more attention to TMJ after the YC wagon began and pops himself is attempting to fuel the TMJ wagon. Based on this, he's leaning town in my mind.

So your

Town

read on TMJ is based entirely on your

scum

read on Y.C?
How does this Doctor claim factor into that?

I don't want to explain too much about jammer at the moment. There are certain connections I think we should look more into with jammer when we know an alignment or two. (etc.)

Are these alignments necessary for the case, or are you just trying to prevent anyone but pops from getting lynched today?

I give up.

No you don't.

At this time I don't have an objection to pops' claim.

[Cruciare]

I'm not vanilla town, i'm doctor. Day 1 doctor death again.
I give up.

I'm not sure what the optimal play for us is in this situation, but I'm not buying it. If however lynching Pops today is not going to happen, like I said I would be fine moving my vote to Jammer. Would someone with experience care to share a little wisdom as to how to proceed?

DRK: Why do you think TMJ is Town (in line with this conversation about him being unreadable)?

Well, I have little direct read on him. His actions have been strange, yes, but I don't see any of them as more likely to come from TMJ-scum as TMJ-town. Based on that, I would probably put him as neutral. What puts him at town is my mind is largely that I think pops is scum. People started paying more attention to TMJ after the YC wagon began and pops himself is attempting to fuel the TMJ wagon. Based on this, he's leaning town in my mind.

I know I said earlier that I'd consider TMJ if Pops flips town (and thus implied that if Pops is scum, TMJ is town), but I realised that I didn't consider all the possibilities. This flew above my head earlier, but it's possible that TMJ is in another anti-town faction (assuming that Pops is scum, of course). From the way he said 'yay' and voted Y.C. almost immediately, we can at least see that if they're both anti-town, they're not in cahoots. I stumbled across another (ongoing) game he's in, and his play there is significantly more sensible than it is here. Just throwing out a possibility, but if Pops is mafia then TMJ could be town OR third-party.

[Porkens]

pops can live through day one for all of me at this point. As for afatchic, his promising to answer the survey and then failing to do so is not a null-tell. Such broken promises, to me, are a great scumtell. still on for a policy lynch.

[Vi]

Would someone with experience care to share a little wisdom as to how to proceed?

My advice at this point is to make your own decisions, starting as of your last post.

Cruciare, what is TMJ if pops=Town? None of this "consider"ing mess. Take a stance.

I think Porkens may be on the right track with what he's saying (>")>

[Vi]

EBWOP: My advice at this point is for you to make your own decisions, etc.

[jammer]

jammer, are you comfortable with pops at L-1? Since you kinda put him there.

yep

And... I'm not seeing anything where Cruciare called TMJ a newb, especially since TMJ explicitly said he's not one. Even so, how would newbiness affect your judgment here?

I gues I misunderstood Cruciare... But ok, I see actions I would write down towards newish.(altrough he does not call himself new, altrough new to the site) And, I see new players more likely to drop scumtells as any allignment.

His first post after pops comes in is a vote that puts pops at L-1. If Y.C was so suspicious that pops couldn't possibly change your mind, then why weren't you voting him to begin with? Why put pops at L-1 when he's barely had a chance to talk, much less claim his role or do some decent scum-hunting?

Call me careless, but I do not really care about if a vote is L-1 or the first vote on someone. I am not about to hammer someone out of the blue but I would easy put any other one on a wagon. You are accusing me for a speedlynch?

I looked at YC in detail a day before I voted him, the whole accusion of you on me is a delayed vote of YC..

Post 4 - Post 90 were August 29-31, the first three days of the game. Post 91 - Post 134 were September 1 - September 3. We're down to less than 15 posts per RL day and only a few of those are moving the game forward.

Posts/day are fine imo. I don´t know what the average is. But I don´t think this game is awfully slow or something.

I don't want to explain too much about jammer at the moment. There are certain connections I think we should look more into with jammer when we know an alignment or two. I prefer not to give away too much now. It's better to present arguments against someone in bulk (That's why I didn't mention anything about jammer's second post until Cruciare's post saying he didn't like jammer's posts from the third onwards). Also, if jammer is scum, there's no reason to tell him what to avoid doing.

I am sure I will keep doing it.

I'm not vanilla town, i'm doctor. Day 1 doctor death again.
I give up.

That is pretty much the obvious claim scum would make, imo.
But, for the moment.

unvote
Vote: afatchic

(If I missed anything, I went partly fast through this, am going to read better in the morning)

[DeathRowKitty]

So your Town read on TMJ is based entirely on your scum read on Y.C?
How does this Doctor claim factor into that?

Well I'm inclined to believe the claim. For now. A day 1 PR fake-claim will almost always back scum into a corner later on. For me, that puts TMJ at neutral unless (see quote below)

I stumbled across another (ongoing) game he's in, and his play there is significantly more sensible than it is here.

Does this refer to TMJ? It wasn't clear in context.

Are these alignments necessary for the case, or are you just trying to prevent anyone but pops from getting lynched today?

They're not technically necessary (and I suppose no specific alignment is crucial. I just don't feel there's enough for a strong case on jammer right now, something a couple of alignments might remedy. I might make a case on jammer now anyway if I feel there's enough to go on since pops just claimed doc.

[Vi]

jammer, why vote the fat chick?

[Tjoe Min Ja]

this game is harder and I make a lot of missunderstanding earlier but all of you should know that Y.C. behaviour is a lot scummy especially his temper and now he claim to be doctor? looks like a scum'ruse to me

[Cruciare]

My advice at this point is to make your own decisions, starting as of your last post.

Cruciare, what is TMJ if pops=Town? None of this "consider"ing mess. Take a stance.

If Pops is town, my entire scumdar would have to be flipped upside down. Which means that TMJ would be more scummy, as would everyone who was quick to jump on the Y.C. wagon, but not necessarily scum. I've said this before, but if it weren't for 82, my read on TMJ would be completely null. At the time, I wasn't considering him because I believe Pops is scum, I believed that lynching Pops was the most important thing that had to be done before I started looking deeply into other people. By 'consider' I meant actually consider starting to look closer into TMJ. There is not enough substance out of him for me to take a definitive stance. Perhaps simply because of 82, he should logically be placed on the scum side of the meter. However Vi, my scumdar is telling me that Pops is scum, and now you are telling that same scumdar to function on the basis that Pops is not scum. I can only fully consider that should I see in green letters 'popsofctown, Doctor'.

As for my decision, I still think Pops is scum (gosh, I might get tired of typing this). I understand that claiming a power role sort of wipes out your slate of scummy records and acts as a get-out-of-lynch-free-unless-someone-counterclaims card (objective vs subjective evidence and all that), which is why even if I am subjectively almost convinced that Pops is scum, it may not be wise to act on those suspicions when there is some kind of objective evidence otherwise. Right now, I'm weighing gut against logic, and gut is winning, which is why I have yet to unvote. Basically, my question is: In terms of optimal play, is wanting to lynch a claimed power role unreasonable or not?

Does this refer to TMJ? It wasn't clear in context.

Yes.

[Vi]

@Cruciare: Wanting to lynch a claimed power role is only unreasonable if you don't have a good reason to back up your vote. If you think pops is scum and pulling this claim out of his rear, go for it.

all of you should know that Y.C. behaviour is a lot scummy especially his temper

Being temperamental is scummy?

[imaginality]

Ooh, interesting few hours.

I haven't modded any games here yet and have mostly played theme games rather than normal, so I want to throw a question out here: are scum doctors allowed in normal game set-ups, or are docs in normal games always pro-town?

More later.

[Vi]

Basically the only roles that aren't allowed in Normal games are
*tied to a flavor
*completely made up

In other words, M. Doctor is completely legitimate.

[Porkens]

Ooh, interesting few hours.

I haven't modded any games here yet and have mostly played theme games rather than normal, so I want to throw a question out here: are scum doctors allowed in normal game set-ups, or are docs in normal games always pro-town?

More later.

why did this occur to you?

[popsofctown]

ok, so TMJ just skips me and other people talking about him being scummy, doesn't even begin to defend himself, and then just takes a onesided interpretation of my roleclaim as proof i'm scum.



Whatever. Just let him wallow in filth. I'm the lynch today. I can see these things coming.

[DeathRowKitty]

Whatever. Just let him wallow in filth. I'm the lynch today. I can see these things coming.

AtE? Defeatism? I seem to recall someone mentioning earlier that you thought your position was worse than it actually was, something that could mean you're scum who's overestimating the hopelessness of your situation. This just looks like more of that.

I personally prefer not to lynch claimed PRs day 1 unless there's a very strong reason to believe it's a lie. I'd prefer not to lynch you. Yet. Don't make me change my opinion.