/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[mith]

Vote Count:

8 to lynch.

ekiM: 5 (elvis_knits, Kmd4390, populartajo, VP Baltar, zu_Faul)
VP Baltar: 5 (ekiM, iamausername, Ojanen, SerialClergyman, Thesp)
Xylthixlm: 2 (charter, roflcopter)
SerialClergyman: 1 (Yosarian2)
Yosarian2: 1 (Xylthixlm)

Not Voting: 1 (PookyTheMagicalBear)

[Xylthixlm]

Yos: you keep fighting battles, and I'll keep voting you.

[Kmd4390]

Xyl, who of ekiM/VP would you rather lynch?

Same question to Charter, Rofl, Yos, and Pooky.

[Yosarian2]

How are Yos and VP scumbuddies at all?

What speaks against it?

That's not how this works, have you been going to Xylschool of nonexistant scumhunting? (joke) But seriously, I don't see how they are connected at all, can you enlighten me?

More Xyl votes. How can anyone think he looks town after him and Yos's back and forth? Xyl's Yos votes have been terrible, as have all of his votes. Xyl is scum! It is obvious.

Yeah...I'd rather vote Xyl then SC at the moment. If Xyl flips scum, then SC is probably town, with the way Xyl voted Sc, then sheeped on him, then voted him again.

[Yosarian2]

Yos: you keep fighting battles, and I'll keep voting you.

Sure. I'll keep playing in a pro-town way, you keep playing in a scummy way.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, right, meant to do this in the response to charter.

Unvote:SC

Vote:Xylthixlm

[Yosarian2]

Xyl, who of ekiM/VP would you rather lynch?

Same question to Charter, Rofl, Yos, and Pooky.

Between the two of them, VP at the moment. eikM's day 2 posts have looked better to me then his day 1 posts.

[charter]

Xyl, who of ekiM/VP would you rather lynch?

Same question to Charter, Rofl, Yos, and Pooky.

If I had to pick, it would be ekiM.

[populartajo]

I've been totally forgetting that we have five dead townies already.
IGMEO Thesp.

Dislike this attempt at scumhunting. First, I dont like the "Ive been forgetting clause" What kind of player forgets that four people died day 1? Second, where does that random IGMEO Thesp come from?

Have to advise against this. Charter was scum and quite aggressive in Pale Moon Rising. I think he's aware of his own meta. Also, what has been aggressive about him thus far today?

Disagree again. Just finished a game with EK as scum and she was plenty aggressive. I've been getting decent (though at times misguided) vibes from her since the original kmd dust up, so I'm inclined to think she is town, but I don't think aggressiveness on her part should be considered a town tell.

Ive played with both some games and they are very easy to read, I think I haven been wrong in our games together. Yeah, gutsy move here and yeah they could be aware of their meta but some things are really hard to fake specially in long games. So far this game hasn't given me a single reasons to think they are playing his scum meta. Their accusations feel sincere, scumhunting motivated, not fabricated.

Lurking, lying, trying to not have an opinion other than "Yos is scum" and "KMD looks town". His posts don't seem like he wants to find scum, they look like he wants Yos2 lynched. He's also fishing for roles.

I know Im way behind but where did Serial lie? About the fishing, meh, more later. In the other hand, Ive been asking Serial why he thinks KMD is town for years now. Serial?

Actually I'm going by who certain dead townies suspected, plus an iso-read of Thesp.

So, what did you dislike in that iso? Can you expand on who certain dead townies suspected?

The short answer is both scenarios are stupid, laughable things to describe as rolefishing. If they were rolefishing, my friendly attackers would at least have to describe them as the most lame and unlikely-to-succede attempts ever.

WIFOM but yeah, this is basically what makes me think this rolefishing thing is a very weak debate. When serial started fighting with rolf about chainsaw defense, Im not even sure if he knew he was debating about possible rolefishing. He was more worried in the apparent rolf hypocrisy. Now, either serial is town not worried about being called rolefisher or confused about rolf posts or he is a very bold scum going all in for something that obv would generate negative attention.

Kmd4390 - gut, meta arguments (i dont remember kmdtown being ironic), elvisvote early is terrible, elvisunvote is odd. backs up his yos hate with yos meta that I still dont get.

ironic how?

Ironic in the sense I dont remember any game from you where you were ironic to make a point. Like the first batch of your post day 1.

So, is that the game you are using to metasuspect Yos?

I guess. Just, on Day 1, he seemed more like a back seat player than normal. That's not really true for Day 2 so far though, so I don't know. I think we are more likely to hit scum in ekiM than Yos.

I dont see how this is related to the meta you used to suspect Yos. Care to elaborate?

If this VC was in order of votes, I'd be able to find some scum from it...

Gogogo.

Re: Serial and Yos argument. Im getting towntown vibes from this walloposts battle. None of the points feel scum exaggerated and I see decent points from both sides. Useless no u! debate.

iaum 743 is an interesting analysis of the game. I agree with some of the reads there (principally alex, charter, elvis, kmd, ojanen) but I dont get the rolf hate. Im very confident rolf is town here (he is so easy to read as scum), but I can see where the hate can come from. Decent cases in the other scum reads you'd support (zu_faul, VP Baltar and Yosarian2). Im still meh about Yos but I dont recall any single town feeling in all the game from faul and vp. Theres something that caught my attention, why did you make a case against kmd and didnt include you in the lynches you would support?

Liking the Ojanen baltar case. Ojanen points are strong and baltars responses (to iam also) are lacking. Disliking Baltar more and more as he answers. (I totally dislike excuses as I need sleep, my memory doesnt work) If fast, the wagon feels decent except for thesp and xyl. Fishy L-1.

Kay, charter is more town than ever in page 32, he is starting to tunnel on his theories.

And I am most suspicious of ekiM, xyl, iam, kmd, serial. Top three are pretty close in terms of order.

Elvis, so why did you vote Baltar?

hmm

unvote

tajo totally scumbag
done.

sup pooky, you forgot to vote. reasons would also be appreciated.

Yos scumlist in 836 is overall decent with some exceptions. Why is faul town and neutral at the same time? I still dont get the serial hate.

Anyway, are we going to get any, like, actual scumhunting from you any time this game, or are you going to just keep making snide remarks, unexplained votes, and random sniping at people from the sidelines?

Huh, so Yos

is

scum.

unvote, vote Yosarian2

I dont get this, specially when you unvoted Yos early today. (Im assuming for the same reason I pegged rolf as town). So far you've been meh so I can understand the hate you would get if you accuse someone out of nowhere. What makes you sure Yos is scum? Where does baltar fit in all this and why did you unvote him after you put him at l-1?

Also, where is ekim?

[charter]

tajo, you should totally vote Xyl.

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl, who of ekiM/VP would you rather lynch?

VP, absolutely.

[Xylthixlm]

Dislike this attempt at scumhunting. First, I dont like the "Ive been forgetting clause" What kind of player forgets that four people died day 1?

A very lazy one.

Second, where does that random IGMEO Thesp come from?

Didn't I explain that in a later post?

So, what did you dislike in that iso?

Yeah, I did. And I explained this in a later post too. He was avoiding discussion early on.

Can you expand on who certain dead townies suspected?

I believe elvis nailed the answer to this one. "Certain dead townies" was Claus and Herodotus.

I dont get this, specially when you unvoted Yos early today. (Im assuming for the same reason I pegged rolf as town).

I unvoted because I had a weak read and rofl claimed to have a strong one. Now I have a strong read and rofl is crazy.

What makes you sure Yos is scum?

I thought I explained that too? In bits and pieces, anyways. Mostly a gut feel, plus his switch from defending every little point in the RVS to pretty much ignoring a more serious read later.

Where does baltar fit in all this and why did you unvote him after you put him at l-1?

I explained

that

too. Baltar and Yos are scumbuddies. I want to make sure everyone knows Yos is scum, so I'm voting him. I still support a VP Baltar lynch.

I mean, I don't mind you asking questions, but it would be nice if you'd at least do an iso read on me and see if I've already answered them. It's not like I'm a wall of text poster.

[SerialClergyman]

In the other hand, Ive been asking Serial why he thinks KMD is town for years now. Serial?

Tajo - I don't see scum motivation for what KMD did. Earnt more suspicion for getting off a townie wagon (and he knew what he was in for), when just riding it to lynch he'd fade into the rest of the wagon who were doing the same thing. It was an odd decision, but real gut decisions often are.

[iamausername]

zu_Faul is town.

Pulled out some quotes that are the basis for that read (sorry I can't trim it down much more without losing the context). Giving opinions, following uncertain reads, willing to change mind, willing to admit to conflicted read of me. Totally town.

Pretty much all you've done is take pot shots at those that are suspicious of him.

This is plainly wrong. I did not attack anyone because they were accusing BAB. I made a comment at rofl and one at you. I doubt those really qualify as "attacks".
Saying something like this is just wrong.


Are you reading the same game I am reading?

Xyl, what on earth is there in this quote that makes you think zu is town? The others you bring up, I think I can see where you're coming from, but this just looks to me like someone trying to back out of taking responsibility for their actions.

VP, why the hell would you do that? You do realize claiming vanilla is just an inherently anti-town act, right?

This strikes me as a distinctly odd reaction to someone that you would be OK with lynching today claiming vanilla when put to L-1.

I'm good with a VP Baltar lynch. Yosarian2, what do you think?

Another Thesp-is-scum-ism! Why is he asking Yos when he would be fine voting for Yos?

Really, charter? You can't think of a reason why someone would ask one of their main suspects to comment on another one of their main suspects?

How are Yos and VP scumbuddies at all?

What speaks against it?

That's not how this works

Why not? If two players are independantly scummy, and there's nothing in their interactions that speaks against them being scum together, why isn't that a perfectly valid reason to believe that they're scumbuddies?

Theres something that caught my attention, why did you make a case against kmd and didnt include you in the lynches you would support?

It's a level of suspicion thing. I came out of my reread less sure about town KMD than I was going into it, but I'm still not sold enough on his scmminess to support his lynch - if I made up a scum-o-meter, he'd fall at the scummier end of the neutral zone. Ditto SerialClergyman.

You have reminded me that KMD hasn't actually responded to my question though; KMD, you've explained why you unvoted BaB, but why were you voting him in the first place?

[ekiM]

So on page 31 VP goes from no votes to L-1. I don't have any problem with any of the votes except Elvis for jumping off pretty sharpish and giving waffly reasons in 786.

VP's AtE in 780 and unrequested vanilla claim don't impress me much.

---

When you give a reason [regarding finding iam scummy yesterday], the only thing you seem to have is that he was supported a BAB claim without voting for him immediately, which seems utterly innocuous to me. Supporting a claim is obviously support the wagon/lynch, too.

IAUN supports B&B wagon and claim. No idea why he votes roflcopter.

Not sure on the need to mention it if it's so innocuous to you. I gave a reason awhile back why a hypo-scum IAAUN might do that, but that was of course stupid and not scumhunting in your eyes.

I don't know why he voted rofl, but it's inconsequential. Asking for a claim is clearly supporting a wagon, and pretending otherwise is perverse.

He voted me for making a facetious comment towards the start of the day, and left that vote there for the entire day. He was happy to leave his vote there until I "answered his questions". Well, his one question: Explain how that facetious comment was funny. He left the vote there because that comment was "seriously scummy".

Translation: Not moving your vote around is scummy. Response: I disagree.

Huge misrep. Not moving your vote around at all on day 1 for a terrible reason is scummy. Doubly so when those suspicions you put across apart from your vote are terrible.

Contra the above, VP has totally failed to explain at any point how that comment was scummy, and is now not interested in discussing it. It is, after all, insignificant bullshit.

Throwing out blanket suspicion and then later saying it was a joke when called out is scummy to me.

So what's the hypo-scum thought process here? "I better make it look like I'm scumhunting, so I'll name some lurkers, even though it's only 24 hours into the game"? That's just plain DUMB.

The reason I pointed out your

serious

vote on Xyl is that I don't see how you expect people to interpret one part as a joke and another as serious when you give no real indication of that in the post.

I still don't understand why you have trouble interpreting it that way. It's not at all difficult.

You seem quite capable of being sarcastic when you want, so I don't see that particular post in that way.

How is that a "so"?

The reason I said it's insignificant now is that I pointed out several more important reasons why you are scummy, but you seem to be trying to strawman my case into this one point. That's what I don't like about it.

This is part of

my

case against

you

. It might be insignificant to your current case on me, but that's irrelevant to whether it was bad of you to keep your vote on me all day one for a ridiculous reason.

With his vote safely planted on a V/LAer, his commitments to suspicions yesterday were distinctly underwhelming. See post 765.

I don't agree, but whatever. I can't change your mind if that's your opinion. I think I was plenty clear on where I stood even if I was being lazy and not scumhunting hard

So you agree you weren't scumhunting hard yesterday.

Avoiding clear comment or involvement with any of the wagons yesterday. Especially the vaguely saying BAB wagon/lynch was good, without reasons.

I put him at L-1. If that's not involvement I don't know what is. I was clear in why I voted him as well. I never claimed that I was contributing heavily to the case, just that I agreed with some of the points people were making. If you dont' like it, so be it

You voted for him

the second time around

, when he had been claimed for ages and people were clamoring for his hammer. You put him at L-1 when he was 100% guaranteed to be the lynch, right at the end of the day. That is NOT involvement in the wagon. Don't try and elide that and make it sound like you were on it earlirer.

I'm talking about before that vote, obviously. You're pretending not to understand that. Up until the L-1 vote when BAB was already a dead man walking you were super wishy washy on his wagon. "I'm a bit confused but I guess it's an OK wagon". etc.

Accusing anyone who defends me of chainsawing.

I believe iam was the only person I actually accused of this. Still believe it's true

And Ojanen. Had to walk that back when you realized how absurd it was though, eh?

---

My scum hunting when I was V/LA was non-existant, yes. Well done. When I came back and decided BAB was scum, I based the rest of my suspicions on that, yes. How gauche. Now, how is either of those scummy?

You know very well I wasn't referring to you being V/LA. I implore people to look at your posts in iso. You vote BaB on like page six as his wagon is gaining significant backing. Then when you come back the only scumhunting you really do is to say that anyone trying to stop his wagon is his buddy. Like I said before, my play wasn't exactly great yesterday, but you saying it's bad is the height of hypocrisy.

OK, I have looked at my iso from day 1. Look at the timeframe of my posts. Post 2 is a random vote in the RVS. Post 3 is the Xyl bandwagon as we leave RVS. Post 4-5 I vote for B&B and scumhunt. Then I am V/LA. When I'm back, I only have time to respond to people in post 8, then catch up in 9-11. Then the day is over. I was barely caught up at this point and post 11 is my first thoughts during my read through. Maybe it's not the best scumhunting ever, but I had 13 pages to catch up on.

I don't see, at all, how my scumhunting was "non-existant".

You were active all of yesterday and your scumhunting was terrible, and your main suspicions were ludicrous. Accusing me of hypocrisy doesn't help that.

How strange that the biggest event of yesterday should inform my suspicions for today. Seriously, what is the point of compalining about that?

It's the way you are doing it that is scummy. He flipped town and now you are arguing that the people who weren't as gung-ho about his lynch as you are the most scummy for that. If anything, your fixation on him yesterday and all things related looks scummy to me

No, I'm saying if people were convinced he was town they should have been derailing the wagon, not unvoting then mostly ignoring it. Misrep again.

---

Don't respond to a quote by pasting bold stuff inside of the quote. It's impossible to read, and even harder to respond to.

---

[*]Avoiding clear comment or involvement with any of the wagons yesterday. Especially the vaguely saying BAB wagon/lynch was good, without reasons.

I put him at L-1. If that's not involvement I don't know what is. I was clear in why I voted him as well. I never claimed that I was contributing heavily to the case, just that I agreed with some of the points people were making. If you dont' like it, so be it

I think that VP could be accused of not using his vote enough yesterday, but I don't think it's fair to say he didn't comment. Also, I didn't remember VP put BaB at L-1, which makes him seem a little better in my eyes, since he did eventually start using his vote. Mike doesn't seem to mention this, which is a bad ommision.

Overall, I like VP's answers in his last post and it brought some things to my attention, like that he put BaB at L-1, which I didn't remember. That makes him more proactive than I remember him, and more proactive than ekiM is saying he was.

vote ekiM

since he has the most votes of the people I suspect, and I think that he was unfair in some of his points on VP.

He put him at L-1

the second time around

, when BAB had already been claimed for ages and people were asking for him to be hammered. BAB was dead meat. It's hardly putting yourself out there to make that vote. What I was referring to was him not commenting seriously on wagons whilst they were ongoing. The omission here is VP's, by making it sound like he put BAB at L-1 pre-claim. He was NOT being proactive wrt the BAB wagon. Putting BAB at L-1 right at the end of the day doesn't mean squat, and VP pretending it does is bad.

For an example, here's a wishy washy comment from VP about the BAB wagon earlier that I find troublesome

"Some of this BnB stuff is becoming a bit muddled for me as I'm going along here. This is the usual setback I find with larger games and lots of competent players, a million lines of questioning happening that lose focus. I can already tell this is going to be a long game.

...

Bridges is a reasonable enough wagon for D1, though I would hope we can put the brakes on a little bit until some of the more background players (ekiM, iamausername, SerialClergyman, etc) weigh in and answer some questions."

KMD

Please explain:

• Which claims would NOT have prompted an unvote from you yesterday.
  
• Why you barely tried to detail the BAB wagon after unvoting.
  
• At what point you became suspicious of me.
  
• Why you are voting for me.

-I don't know. I've already explained over and over again why scum wouldn't have claimed vanilla.
-V/LA
-first couple of pages
-I think you are scum.

-You must have thought about this in some detail, so you should be able to tell me which claims scum might make; and which ones don't merit an unvote.
-k.
-And that's been persistant, or piqued by something else recently?
-Why?

---

Charter you said my wagon was clearly scum-driven. You seem to think VP is town. You've barely mentioned or suspected KMD, or Ojanen, or Tajo. Who did you have in mind?

---

I seriously do not understand rofl saying that anyone voting for Yos is scummy. This requires explanation.

[Ojanen]

Yos, you speak often about OMGUS but I'm sorry, you sometimes come across as quick to judge others for suspecting you too.

Neutral (people I can't get a read on, or who I have a mixed read on)
Xylthixlm
etc.

Lessee. Scumteam is Yos, charter, VP Baltar, and... maybe tajo?

Anyway, are we going to get any, like, actual scumhunting from you any time this game, or are you going to just keep making snide remarks, unexplained votes, and random sniping at people from the sidelines?

Huh, so Yos is scum.

unvote, vote Yosarian2

Yes, that's a perfect example of the scummy and mostly useless way you've been voting and acting for most of the game. Thanks for the demonstration.

----

The only real reasoning he gave for all this was a process of elimination things; "These players look town, and I'm willing to lynch anyone else". Which is fine, I like process of elimination, but I would still expect town-Xyl to have SOME preference about which of the "others" he wants to lynch. It dosn't seem like he does.
And, when I point this out, his reaction is to OMGUS vote me. Which, interestingly, is basically the only vote all game that breaks the "wait for someone else to attack and then follow up" pattern.

I'm not really seeing it as an OMGUS based on the order of the dialogue from his part, and it seemed to make you suspect him a lot more.

It has seemed to me more like Xyl often bandwagons to scumhunt rather than scumhunts and then votes.
His unvotes have not been groupthink and have been one thing that has made me feel better about him, and I have been imagining to be able to see the townhunting through the lines. I don't have time to really iso him right now, but you left out an independent vote on me D1 out at least.
Anyway, I guess I have a wary mousey towngut on Xyl.

---

Although I'm disappointed at Ojanen.

:puppyeyes:

Gotta run, more later.
Haven't read few last posts.

[SerialClergyman]

:puppyeyes:

Instantly forgiven.

In other news,

Yos, you speak often about OMGUS but I'm sorry, you sometimes come across as quick to judge others for suspecting you too.

Yos2 can be charged with not just the OMGUS-related hypocrasy, but also the 'wait until someone else attacks' hypocrasy. I seem to remember his vote on me (also directly after I made a case on him) and his vote on Xyl happened after one or more other people attacked and voted first, much like he accused Xyl of doing.

More posts from elvis please.

[Xylthixlm]

Xyl, what on earth is there in this quote that makes you think zu is town? The others you bring up, I think I can see where you're coming from, but this just looks to me like someone trying to back out of taking responsibility for their actions.

It was the last bit, the "Are you reading the same game I am reading?".

Now that you bring it up I have no idea

why

I felt like that came from town, but I did.

[Xylthixlm]

It has seemed to me more like Xyl often bandwagons to scumhunt rather than scumhunts and then votes.

Very true. I like that way of putting it.

---

So far the last page or so has not changed my reads on anyone.

---

Yos2 needs more votes. Come on people. Don't make me actually put together a case.

[mith]

Mod Note:

PookyTheMagicalBear has been prodded.

[iamausername]

Yos2 needs more votes. Come on people. Don't make me actually put together a case.

If Yos and VP are both scum, what's the point of derailing a wagon on one of them to get votes on the other?

[Xylthixlm]

Yos2 needs more votes. Come on people. Don't make me actually put together a case.

If Yos and VP are both scum, what's the point of derailing a wagon on one of them to get votes on the other?

I'm pretty sure the VP Baltar wagon can take care of itself.

[populartajo]

So, what did you dislike in that iso?

Yeah, I did. And I explained this in a later post too. He was avoiding discussion early on.

I dont remember Thesp avoiding discussion day 1. IMO, Thesp day 1 is pretty solid. Can you quote what gives you that impression? And considering your vote history, why havent you voted him then?

Can you expand on who certain dead townies suspected?

I believe elvis nailed the answer to this one. "Certain dead townies" was Claus and Herodotus.

Yeah, and what does this mean? How is Thesp IGMEO related with Claus and Hero being dead?

I dont get this, specially when you unvoted Yos early today. (Im assuming for the same reason I pegged rolf as town).

I unvoted because I had a weak read and rofl claimed to have a strong one. Now I have a strong read and rofl is crazy.

Mkay. Why didnt you ask rolf why he had that strong read? How did he convince you?

Where does baltar fit in all this and why did you unvote him after you put him at l-1?

I explained

that

too. Baltar and Yos are scumbuddies. I want to make sure everyone knows Yos is scum, so I'm voting him. I still support a VP Baltar lynch.

Why are you asking for more Yos votes instead of supporting the wagon that you put at L-1?

I mean, I don't mind you asking questions, but it would be nice if you'd at least do an iso read on me and see if I've already answered them. It's not like I'm a wall of text poster.

Thats precisely the problem. Your answers are meh. I dont know what you are thinking and why.

[populartajo]

I should say that I totally agree with SerialClergyman's post 558 on Yos2.

Oh, and

unvote
vote Yosarian2

Also why did you vote for Yos based on a weak read?

[Xylthixlm]

And considering your vote history, why havent you voted him then?

I bet you can figure it out if you try.

How is Thesp IGMEO related with Claus and Hero being dead?

Both of them suspected Thesp.

Why didnt you ask rolf why he had that strong read?

Because he's roflcopter.

How did he convince you?

Because he's roflcopter.

Why are you asking for more Yos votes instead of supporting the wagon that you put at L-1?

Because everyone else is busily avoiding taking any real position on Yos and I want them to stop. At this rate he is going to muddle through with no one really thinking he's town but no one willing to lynch him, until he pulls off some spectacular gambit and everyone will think he's town and then he'll win as scum and I will be

Your answers are meh. I dont know what you are thinking and why.

So ask more specific questions?

Also why did you vote for Yos based on a weak read?

Why shouldn't I?