Newbie 827 - Store Katana (Scum Win!)

[Tenchi]

---

VOTE COUNT

(3) NewAgeWarrior - purple princess, Excedrin, XScorpion

(2) XScorpion - NewAgeWarrior, julienvonwolfe

(1) Wysp - Messiah
(1) adamrights - Wysp
(1) oramiuri - adamrights

Not Voting: oramiuri

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch
DEADLINE: September 7, 2009 12:01 PM PST

[Messiah]

Since we have about 7 days left until the deadline and the wagon on Wysp kind of died down I've done a re-read and have determined my #2 is XScorpion, my thoughts below.

His early game role fishing is extremely anti-town, and it might be worth noting that he thought NAW was the doc(ISO 8) and then goes on to vote him(ISO 37) later.

It really bothered me that XScorpion refused to actually scumhunt for the entire game, and even admitted that he had no idea who he would vote for if there wasn't any lurkers in post 145(ISO 21).

His first non-lurker vote comes in at post 220(ISO 37) where he votes for NAW without even stating a reason. The only thing he's said about NAW being scummy was how he had been "saving his vote to not put himself out there"(ISO 23), and I'm not sure if that was sarcasm or not.

unvote, vote: XScorpion

[Excedrin]

Since there's 2 players at L-2, note that if someone brings one of them to L-1, nobody should hammer before we sort out claims etc.

Messiah, XScorpion did say that he didn't want to vote for some players for various reasons leaving him with NAW. Which might not be a great reason, but it's not "without stating a reason."

XScorpion's accusation regarding NAW's late 1st vote kinda applies to oramiuri right now (since oramiuri has unvoted) as well. It seemed a bit inconsistent that oramiuri has been lurking and our self-appointed lurker hunter hasn't been all over it.

XScorpion, how are oramiuri's posts and/or posting frequency on par with julienvonwolfe? If you check out the "Display posts from previous" at the bottom and compare the two of them, you'll see that JVW has 19 posts and they're all significantly longer and more full of information than oramiuri's 12 posts. oramiuri's posts overall have less focus on scumhunting and more concern with how he appears to others. If you wanted to build a case against oramiuri, it'd be fairly easy based on active lurking and attempting to fly under the radar.

This post bothers me a little because I think that there's basically no reason to not have your vote on someone at this point in the game. There's definitely enough scummy behavior going around to justify voting for at least 3 players.

[XScorpion]

If I tried to judge based on which of them had done better at scum-hunting, it would be pretty hypocritical, seeing as how opinion is that all I do is lurker-hunt. People keep saying I should stop lurker-hunting and vote for active players, and now that I have, I'm being attacked for it? What exactly am I supposed to do then? If I build a case against oramiuri, I figured people would just get more upset because all I do is build cases on lurkers. If I vote for someone who has already done a lot of scummy things in other people's eyes, I get a vote for "not having a reason", although neither of the other people on NAW's bandwagon have gotten votes for voting on him.
Also I'm getting annoyed at being told off for role-fishing, after NAW WAS THE ONE WHO MADE THE CLAIM. I can assure you that if no one had done any claims, I wouldn't have made any comments on roles.

[Excedrin]

People keep saying I should stop lurker-hunting and vote for active players...

Not only vote for active players; analyze what active players have done and said. That is why focusing on lurkers doesn't help, there's no content to analyze. The distinction between simply throwing a vote on whoever and having a reason (even if it's only, "I agree with X,Y,Z") is the key.

If I build a case against oramiuri, I figured people would just get more upset because all I do is build cases on lurkers.

There's no such thing as "building a case on a lurker." Everyone can clearly see if someone is lurking. Focusing on it while ignoring other things that are going on is scummy.

Also I'm getting annoyed at being told off for role-fishing, after NAW WAS THE ONE WHO MADE THE CLAIM. I can assure you that if no one had done any claims, I wouldn't have made any comments on roles.

First, JVW said not to speculate about roles in post 46 after your first "he's prob not cop" post 45 then in your post 82 you went into the "might be doctor" idea. Scum sometimes will do or say things that inspire you to speculate or do something anti-town, but you should avoid stating stuff like that publicly. This is another reason why NAW's claim was so anti-town; he's now further reduced the potential mafia kill and block targets due to your response to his claim.

[oramiuri]

@ Excedrin:

Who would you recommend that I vote for? Right now, things seem a bit tense, and I have no desire to needlessly escalate the situation with a careless vote.

I'm currently rereading the thread to get a better sense of the whole picture: please bear with me for a day or so.

[NewAgeWarrior]

@oramiuri
That last post stank to me. you should read and formulate your own opinion on who is scum and why, not ask others to do it for you. If you research and give reasons, your vote wont be careless, and if you need to stick your neck out to help the town, then do it. you have had more than enough to go on to formulate an opinion.

FoS:Oramiuri

[Excedrin]

oramiuri, there's no reason to ask that. Take your time, you have 6 days. I'm looking forward to your input after your reread.

[Tenchi]

You notice it was getting dark... and with the flickering fluorescent bulbs that has been disrupting your investigations, you seriously doubt that you will have the chance to continue your investigations during the night. You have to get your answers soon, from somebody. Anybody.

You may be getting somewhere with what you are doing, and you just know that you just have to press on... and hope that you are right.

[julienvonwolfe]

Ack. With all due apologies, V/LA for 48 hours.

[Wysp]

I get a vote for "not having a reason",

I would

hope

you had a reason. Going against what you've been doing so far is only, I think, suspicious if you just got converted to Cult or something the previous night. And since we know there's no Cult, then I don't see a problem with going against type. I'm not the best player here ( ) but that's what I think.

Also I'm getting annoyed at being told off for role-fishing, after NAW WAS THE ONE WHO MADE THE CLAIM. I can assure you that if no one had done any claims, I wouldn't have made any comments on roles.

Just because he made the claim doesn't mean you go after him. I mean, really, claiming villager, I think, is just as good as not claiming anything at all. I mean, really. Now, if the Doctor-claimed or Cop-claimed, then I would have jumped all over him ("Why the heck are you claiming before the Mafia even killed! That makes you a target!) And I woulda FoSed him--probably along with a pile of other players. If he were to roleclaim, Townie would be the only logical choice, since it has no special powers. (Obviously he could claim Mafia but there's no point in that.) So there's no point, I don't think, in prosecuting someone who hasn't made any substantial claim.

Ora--I'm gonna deviate a little from the beaten path and ask--if you are looking over the topic again, then why are you asking other people what they think? It just seems odd to me.

NAW--

...if you need to stick your neck out to help the town, then do it.

*flail*
That doesn't seem, really...uh, pro-town. we want to keep villagers

alive

, 'member? I don't really know what to say here, but the guy who introduced me to this site said "Follow your gut" and right now my gut is pointing at this line. It just seems so...out of place. O_o
No FoS, though. If I FoSed right now I'd be FoSing all over the place.
Oh, as a question: NAW, what's up with that post, encouraging people to stick their necks out for the village? That's like saying that "Go risk getting hanged!" It's not someone one does willingly, and of course you're risking telling it to the Doc/Cop. Of course, you could be talking to the Mafia, too, but that's not my point. It just seems strange. Care to explain?

I've looked over the last page and in hindsight, I would agree with what some people were saying: We would be wasting time on adam right now, since he's so stingy with info. I would like to have a bit more from him, since he's kinda a void, but until we get something, it's a waste of time.

Unvote

. I don't see anyone who's acting outstandingly scummy at the moment, so I'm just gonna watch...

[purple princess]

@ Excedrin:

Who would you recommend that I vote for? Right now, things seem a bit tense, and I have no desire to needlessly escalate the situation with a careless vote.

Why do you only ask excedrin who you should vote for? I think quite a lot has happened in this game so far, you should be able to make you own opinions on people. You don't necessarily need to vote for some one all the time if you are unsure who is scum.

[Excedrin]

oramiuri didn't quote the specific part of my post that his comment was replying to. I don't think his question was a very good idea (it's so easy to be misunderstood), but at least look at it in context:

This post bothers me a little because I think that there's basically no reason to not have your vote on someone at this point in the game.

@ Excedrin:

Who would you recommend that I vote for? Right now, things seem a bit tense, and I have no desire to needlessly escalate the situation with a careless vote.

I'm currently rereading the thread to get a better sense of the whole picture: please bear with me for a day or so.

To answer the question, your vote should probably be on whoever you find the most scummy.

[adamrights]

@Excedrin: What do you make of oramiuri's meekness, because that's what asking you for a reccomendation appears like to me. A little pressure is on her, so she acts meek.

[XScorpion]

I think Oramiuri is just afraid of making an error, because from how this game has gone, anyone who makes a newb mistake immediately gets hit with suspicion.

[NewAgeWarrior]

@ wysp
Getting town killed is not good. however, sitting on your ass doing or saying nothing out of fear of being lynched is just as bad. sometimes waiting for scum to slip is not enough. sometimes you need to make the scum slip up.
(no risk no reward, no pain no gain, ect...)

[Excedrin]

@Excedrin: What do you make of oramiuri's meekness, because that's what asking you for a reccomendation appears like to me. A little pressure is on her, so she acts meek.

As I said above, in the context of the sorta weak case that I proposed on oramiuri to XScorpion and my comment about not having a vote on someone, I don't interpret it as a serious request. I fully expect oramiuri to bring eir analysis and a well thought out reason for a vote soon.

It's a interesting post because it can be interpreted a few different ways. Anyway, I'm going to pretend ey just said, "I'm catching up, analysis incoming shortly."

I think Oramiuri is just afraid of making an error, because from how this game has gone, anyone who makes a newb mistake immediately gets hit with suspicion.

You still have 5+ days left to correct your mistakes. As far as I've seen, nobody's suggested "lets instantly lynch XScorpion because ey's made too many noob mistakes (or is obviously scum)." This game can be extremely frustrating. Don't give up, use the time before deadline to find inconstencies, lies, suspicious motivations, bad reasoning etc. One of the primary things that you're accused of is tunnel vision on lurkers; there's an obvious way to fix that and you're not doing it, which makes the people voting for you comfortable with their vote. Also, your post here falls into AtE; "poor me, I'm just a noob who made a mistake."

[Wysp]

@ wysp
Getting town killed is not good. however, sitting on your ass doing or saying nothing out of fear of being lynched is just as bad. sometimes waiting for scum to slip is not enough. sometimes you need to make the scum slip up.
(no risk no reward, no pain no gain, ect...)

That is true...Makes sense to me. He might be the Doc/Cop, then it would be a bad idea to stick his neck out, but let's not rolehunt before the night has even started.

As far as I've seen, nobody's suggested "lets instantly lynch XScorpion because ey's made too many noob mistakes (or is obviously scum)."

They wanted to do that on me.

Okay, I'm gonna review the vote record and see if I can get everything straight:

(3) NewAgeWarrior - purple princess, Excedrin, XScorpion (Role claim, No-lynching opinions)
(3) XScorpion - NewAgeWarrior, julienvonwolfe, Messiah (OMGUS posts, bad reactions to pressure, lurkerhunting)
(1) oramiuri - adamrights (posting reminiscent of scum)

Do I have all of those reason correct?

[Messiah]

For the record, I don't think oramiuri was serious when he asked Excedrin who to vote for.

@XScorpion: We don't want you to stop lurker hunting and place a vote on someone randomly, we want you to stop tunneling on lurkers and scum-hunt.

(3) NewAgeWarrior - purple princess, Excedrin, XScorpion (Role claim, No-lynching opinions)
(3) XScorpion - NewAgeWarrior, julienvonwolfe, Messiah (OMGUS posts, bad reactions to pressure, not scum-hunting)
(1) oramiuri - adamrights (posting reminiscent of scum)

Do I have all of those reason correct?

Fixed.

[adamrights]

I think Oramiuri is just afraid of making an error, because from how this game has gone, anyone who makes a newb mistake immediately gets hit with suspicion.

If Oramiuri were to flip town I'd view this as a possible buddying up/defending a town player by a scum who knows that player is town.

[XScorpion]

At this point, I highly doubt that Oramiuri will get lynched before I do, so that idea is moot. It would make more sense to say "If XScorpion flips scum then I'd view this as defending a scumbuddy", seeing as when I flip town it will mean nothing.

[julienvonwolfe]

Yes. Would you like to explain it to those who may not be?

I asked my initial question about whether or not you thought Wysp and Oramiuri were scum because I couldn't understand why, if your initial thought was that Wysp was scum, you instead voted for Oramiuri. I can't find any logical progression in your thoughts.

Back from my short trip. Adam, can you clarify this? I realise that perhaps it wasn't explicit that I wished clarification when I wrote it like this, but help a brother out here.

[Wysp]

Messiah--Thanks.

flip town

flips scum

This means when your role is revealed if you die, right? I think so, I just wanna make sure.

Stupid terminology clash. <_<

I think it's odd that XScorp is getting all defensive when he's accused. XScorp, if you could respond to these three accusations, that would help majorly.
OMGUS posts
Bad reactions to pressure
Not scum-hunting

JVW's post maes me think of something--From what he had posted earlier, Adam thinks that Ori and I are scumbuddies. Now he's talking about "if Ori flips town, Xscorp might be scum". Which means that he thinks that Ori is town. My guess is that he thinks I'm scum, and he's trying to use Ori as bait to catch XScorp and make him look guilty. IMO, that is

really

weird. I don't think it's a scum indicator (yet), but it just seems such a roundabout way of scumhunting. O_o

[adamrights]

@JVH: That post was after catching up, so in the beginning of the thread I was leaning toward Wysp, but was not convinced as I continued reading with the pressure on him, and decided to place my vote on Ori due to some pretty subjective/personal scum-tells, such as reminiscent of a type of scum-style I've seen...which is why I put some pressure on.

As for Third Vote Theory...scum can often be found in the 3rd or 4th spot of a bandwagon, because they don't want to be in the beginning or the very end.

[adamrights]

Hey guys, I'm V/LA until Sunday night, althaough I might get a little access it is flaky.