California Trilogy: City of Angels - Off Stage (Game Over)

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

That's an impressive hydra. Ok, guys, I'm expecting you to have caught all the scum by the time I finish getting caught up.

Allow me to laugh my head off into a spectacular array of fireworks.

You'll never guess who Mr JellyLee is voting for - already.

[elmosaurian]

Therefore, I am very skeptical about Valentine for not giving any information, and I have to wonder (i) if there is some gag order in play, or (ii) if Valentine would rather avoid being shown to be a liar by not saying anything. There is no point in being an

Advocate

without any information, and I think Valentine has information that is not being shared.

All the rules say is that "the advocate will have some information that will be helpful in making the decision." It wouldn't surprise me if all the information Velentine has is "X is the right choice", that would make perfect sense. I don't think the advocates would generally know everything.

[elmosaurian]

6. Overall, I dislike elmosaurian’s focus on mechanics and attempted justification for thinking mechanics-based posts are protown.

Mechanics based posts are pro-town in a situation where the mechanics are this confusing.

I mean, the rules for the on-camera thread apparently completely confused YOU, PJ, and I know how closely you read the rules. They confused me, too. I doubt anyone fully understood them on the first readthrough, or the second, or the third. If we hadn't taken the time to figure out game mechanics, we'd totally be up the creek without a paddle here.

Anyway, while I did discuss mechanics for a while, I certainly have been scumhunting lately.

Yos

[elmosaurian]

That said, I actually do think now that the Town should choose to follow Valentine. If the consequence of that is very clearly

bad

, then I think it is safe to assume that at least John Locke is probably lying scum, and that there is a good chance that Valentine was scum squeezed into a situation where the best thing to do was to say pretty much nothing that could catch her in a lie. I think if the consequence of following Valentine is bad, a rebuttal would be along the lines of "Yes that was bad, but clearly not

as

bad as John Locke switching alignments."

Uh...the only way the consequence could possibly be bad is if they're both lying scum. That seems so unlikely to me at this point, I'm not really sure why you're even considering it.

[elmosaurian]

OK, so I've botched things up pretty royally.

When I was agreeing with Valentine Wiggin driving, I was using some extra information. In my attempts to be more productive, I've been reviewing all my information, and have found, to my chagrin, I was mixing up my information.

You may recall an earlier post where I stated ckd will have to be lynched. That was from my initial read with this extra information fresh in my brain. My initial plan was to jump in and correct everything after I'd given my share of scumhunting, which I also noted in that post.

Somehow, in the shuffle of me feeling pressure to post every day, this information got shuffled as well.

I HAVE to get onstage in time to relay this information and help the town On Camera vote correctly.

...what?

That dosn't really make any sense at all.

We don't have that much time left before deadline...I really wonder if this was a scum-KY's attempt to just dodge the lynch bullet for a day.

In any case, he sent Talilan back to us. Talilan was one of my main suspects, and I guess he still is, but if KY is scum, I doubt he'd send us a scum buddy of his to lynch.

Talilan, I hope to hear your opinion soon.

-Yos

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

In any case, he sent Talilan back to us. Talilan was one of my main suspects, and I guess he still is, but if KY is scum, I doubt he'd send us a scum buddy of his to lynch.

Notably, he didn't switch with MafiaJin, who was everyone else's main ON camera suspect.

If KY Krew is scum, what does that make MafiaJin?

[Mighty Orbots]

Hmm, I got a reply to my question about whether the scum know the outcomes for scene one that said that I couldn't have access to that knowledge. I'm paraphrasing here. It seems likely that the scum do know the outcomes for scene one but apparently it will remain unclear.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

6 to lynch.

zwetschenwasser: 2 (Bagel Eating Cowfrog, Mighty Orbots)
elmosaurian: 1 (MrJellyLee)
GoofballsAndBaloons: 1 (Thok)

Not Voting: 7 (elmosaurian, Gaspar, GoofballsAndBaloons, Rawr Hydra, ShadowLurker, Talilan, zwetschenwasser)

Current Condorcet Winner:

zwetschenwasser

To view the complete table of pairwise results, put the following information into this form.

1,Bagel Eating Cowfrog
2,elmosaurian
3,Gaspar
4,GoofballsAndBaloons
5,Mighty Orbots
6,MrJellyLee
7,Rawr Hydra
8,ShadowLurker
9,Talilan
10,Thok
11,zwetschenwasser
12,No Lynch
13,Mr. Grey

1:3>11>1>4=6=7=8=9=10>5>12>2
1:11>6=10>4=7=8>1=2=5>12>3>9
1:11>8>1=2=6=7=9=10>3=5>4>12
1:11>6=7>4=8>1=2=3=10>9=12>5
1:2>10>1=5=7=8=11>3>4>12>13>6>9
1:1=2=3=4=5=6=8=9=10=11=12>7
1:11>6=7>3>1>10>12>5>2>4>9>8
1:1=2=3=4=5=6=7=8=10=11=12>9
1:4>7>6>1=5>8>12>11>2=3>10>9
1:1=2=3=4=5=6=7=8=9=10=12>11

[ShadowLurker]

Quick observation: Mr. Grey has been appearing on the Condorcet list ever since ever since the stuntman ability was used. Before that, the only time he appeared was when Mighty Orbots (?) voted him. He disappeared as soon as Mighty Orbots stopped voting him but has reappeared just now.

[Talilan]

Talillan 119

advocate(s) chosen by scum for subsequent scenes. They will still get the useful information whether they be scum or town. They are kind of like a weird version of night-kill choices for the scum.

Your word choice here seems to imply you know that scum don't have night kills. I just reread the rules (again. . .) and I couldn't find anything to suggest this. I don't like using slips anymore ( I used to really like them, but have recently found them to not work well) to find scum, but this one looks better than most.

You are incorrect to imply that what I said entailed me knowing the scum have no night-kill choices (and I'm honestly not sure why you would think that either). In fact the mere presence of a night to me makes me think this isn't the case.

I'm not sold. My gut is telling me this is overblown (and I'm incredibly wary of slips anyway). I don't see that his actions in putting himself on stage are the massive crime that Gaspar is making them out to be (at best a mistake, though). I don't feel the slip is particularly worthwhile. In short, I'm not a fan of the wagon.

Zwet, otoh, I think is looking pretty damn scummy. His post rebutting DGB is unusually long and detailed for him, and was already his second post addressing the situation; he's worried enough about it that he has to address it twice before giving any thoughts on the game. Yet when I quizzed him about it, he claimed that it was impossible to defend against anyway. So why spend such effort trying (and yes, for zwet that was a relatively large amount of effort). Then there's the buddying up to DGB, the person attacking him, which screams scum to me. I really think zwet is a much better lynch than MafiaJin.

-Shanba

This post sums up my exact attitudes to the game as of this post.

Others might disagree with my interpretation that Talitan was asking for input from those of us off stage but zwetschenwasser should have at least commented on it and whether he wanted to post a photo.

Actually we weren't after input from those off stage, we also knew perfectly well that there was a good and bad outcome. We were trying to catch people slipping claiming divergent/scummy scenarios.

(Mith may mislead, but he wouldn't lie, and scum wouldn't risk that much on the first decision unless they knew it was so important that it was worth risking two of their members.)

Recall that we (well, I - ortolan, at least) had no knowledge of this and no facility to access your commentary during our time on camera. I am very surprised at the commentary by elmo (213) and Gaspar (238) (and followed by Goofballs and Balloons and to some extent Mighty Orbots earlier) which suggests we are obv-scum merely for not being 100% certain of the decision we should make several days into the on-camera scene.

All we were doing is questioning curiouskarmadog, which, you know, is good for gauging reactions from ourselves, them and the other players. At no point did we ever announce that we did intend to vote against the effective consensus by the two advocates. Yet Gaspar and elmo have developed a lock-on scum reading already where they conveniently take the least charitable possible interpretation of our actions (note Gaspar already did exactly the same thing with MafiaJin (who I read as town because of his directorial choices), which I will get to later).

On my other suspicions...I've got kind of a bad gut feeling about Gasper right now. I can't really explain it, but he seems off, feels more like scum-Glork then town-Glork. I don't really like the way he's scumhunting, and I'm unconvinced about and unsatisfied with his attack and focus on MafiaJin. Talking to Elmo now and he also has a bad feeling about Glork.

SAME BUT I THINK YOU'RE HIS BUDDY. If you genuinely had a strong scum read on him along with your hydra he'd be number one in your condorcet.

Yeah, well, that last game we played together I had a gut feeling you were scum there as well, and didn't follow up on it as much as I should have. We all know how that turned out, heh. My suspicions on you aren't really meta based; it's more about how your

Yep! You forgot to fill in your reasoning to make your distancing look legitimate here (who would possibly stop writing that mid-way through if that were a legitimate comment?)

I'm considering whether I find Orbots or Thok scummier. Thok, from what I've seen of him, isn't this quiet and doesn't post so quietly, even with excuses. He lied, saying that DGB was tunnelling on me. Seraphim typically doesn't lurk this much in games, KY Krew has been making too much nonsensicalness (even trying to mask his desire to policy lynch me with a strange analogy), and I find Shadowlurker slightly scummy for his overeager vote.

Yer conveniently he's just commenting on the people no-one else is concerned with.

I skimmed the rest of the game in order to post this (and will catch up on that and why I think MafiaJin is probably town after that but...)

Vote: [zwet, Gaspar, elmosaurian], People, MrJellyLee, GoofballsandBalloons, Bagel Eating Cowfrog, No lynch, Talilan

Tags removed. Only use bold for actual votes, and you can only vote for one player at a time. - Mod

[elmosaurian]

So, I guess you're just not going to respond to the reasons I suspect you then? And instead just accuse me of being scum just because I'm...attacking someone you claim to suspect? And that somehow makes you think I must be his buddy? And of course it has nothing to do with the fact I've been attacking you, right?

Yeah, I think I was right the first time, Talilan is scum. Shouldn't have let myself get all WIFOMy about it.

Vote:Talilan, Gasper, Begel, Zwet, [everyone], Goofballs, Mighty Orbots, No Lynch, Elmosaurian.

-Yos

Tags removed. Only votes at the end of the post are counted. - Mod

[Talilan]

Who are you attacking whom I suspect? Gaspar? Yes, that's busing(/distancing, whichever lingo you prefer), as I already explained.

What reasons you suspect me have I failed to respond to?

Why was the OMGUS so unashamedly swift?

[Talilan]

Vote: zwet

, Gaspar, elmosaurian, People, MrJellyLee, GoofballsandBalloons, Bagel Eating Cowfrog, No lynch, Talilan

[elmosaurian]

Who are you attacking whom I suspect? Gaspar? Yes, that's busing(/distancing, whichever lingo you prefer), as I already explained.

The only reason you gave for suspecting me was a vauge claim that my attack on Gasper was "distancing" for vauge reasons, and that's just an incredibly weak and scummy reason to vote someone. It's especally bad since you're apparently rating me and Gasper at the same level of scumminess, which dosn't make any sense at all; if your only reason for suspecting me is based on you thinking I'm linked with him, then it would be absurd for you to want to lynch me for that before him.

Neah, I'm pretty sure that the only reason you're accusing me and Gasper of being scum together is that we were both attacking you.

What reasons you suspect me have I failed to respond to?

...all of them?

Have you read this thread?

It started here:

And, on that note, Talian's on camera stuff looks pretty scummy to me. He really seems to be trying to confuse what should be a simple decision, with posts like this:

follows John Locke onto the bus to have a quiet word

The decision, Mr Locke, is whether to have you drive knowing that either you are lying now or you will defect to the enemy, then dispose of you at the next opportunity.

Or do we let the unknown quantity drive, the one who

knows

but has not told us what will happen if she drives. The one who may have had the same offer as you, and may defect, but we will not know of it.

You act the martyr but wouldn't the truly noble action be to drive, knowing that we

will

have to kill you?
WWWSD? What would Will Smith do?

That post dosn't really make any sense to me at all; I'm pretty sure if Panzer drives he's not going to turn scum, that's probably just part of the cost to the town of picking the wrong decision. Plus it sounds like he's trying to make it sound like we're going to "eventually need to lynch CKD" which dosn't make any sense at all; if he's telling the truth, which I suspect he is, then he dosn't turn scum if he dosn't drive.

It's possible that Tallion just dosn't know what's going on, or that he's just trying to gather information or something, but it really just sounds to me like random BS thown around by a scum to try to muddy the issue and trick the town.

-Yos

Then here:

I thought they already established that there's one good and one bad choice.

Well, that does seem to be obvious from the rules, but in the other thread Talilan and Hewitt seem to either not understand that, or else seem to be delibartly trying to confuse the issue.

Yos

And here

I also didn't like Talilan's suggestion of "well we could have Locke drive, then just kill Locke." While the argument of "we will lynch known scum" is technically true, it is far better to keep a town than to turn him into a scumbag and kill him. In that discussion (especially this post), Talilan posits that both Valentine and Locke have been given equal choices... which is stupid, because we are explicitly told that one choice is Good, while the other choices is Bad. The outcomes of the decision must necessarily be different, yet Talilan posits them as being the same.

This, though, I agree with. Plus, Talilan also seems to be ignoring the fact that making the wrong choice on thread now will not only turn someone scum, it also would do something that will hurt town in endgame. At least, that's my reading of the rules; I really don't think the alignment of one player is the only thing riding on this decision.

-Yos

Why was the OMGUS so unashamedly swift?

I don't know; why was your OMGUS vote of me so unashamedly swift?

[Talilan]

Yos:
We were only dragged into this thread a matter of hours ago. It's a lot to catch up on. Give us a chance. We've been a bit stagnant in the other thread, having basically made a decision, waiting, not knowing what is going on here but wanting to give you guys plenty of time. Now we're here and the clock is ticking fast so it's no wonder that Ortolan has jumped to get involved here immediately.

This is important though -> You need to understand that over in the other thread we had NO access to the rules and information posted here by the mod. We were going purely from memory and I myself had barely had time to skim the rules before being whisked onstage. We weren't ignoring anything, we simply didn't have the information apart from what we could remember.

- Talitha (Ortolan posted the remainder of our posts since we switched excepting the first which was me.)

And I'm trying to get through the thread - stop making pages faster than I can read them.

[Talilan]

All the reasons you brought up for attacking us are reasons I already addressed in post 409. I will reiterate with more detail:

- We never announced any intention of going through with a vote for Locke to drive.

- We were unsure on how mod-WIFOM factored into things. I sent several PMs to Mr. Grey trying to discern better how the advocates decisions worked e.g. asking if what the [something else] players chose as the correct choices determined what information was given to the advocates or if it was independent of it.

- We had no access to the off-camera thread to see e.g. Thok's opinion that mith would never directly lie to players.

- By reserving our judgment and considering contrary points of view we incited discussion which allows people better opportunity to read those on camera.

- Uncertainty is not a scum-tell, particularly in this setup when scum know which is the correct decision, and innocents do not.

- View e.g. Post 102 by us (me) on-stage. Gaspar and yourself's scenario of us being scum relies on us intending to subvert the overall opinion despite the knowledge the advocates provide. If this were the case you cannot explain why we changed our mind to saying that voting for Valentine to drive was inevitable, and that there was really no alternative (this alone means you should have adjusted your opinions of us, but apparently you're still tunneled down the same path without recognising that if you were town you should have changed your suspicions in response to our actions).

- We asked for a spot poll of those outside the thread on whether we should trust Locke, which defers our decision to other people. It really is astonishing that you can still pretend to find us scummy after actions such as this. But you're welcome to try and explain how this fits in with your Talilan-as-scum theory.

- There was the additional point made in the thread from memory which seemed generally agreed with that the advocates would be stupid to lie as scum, because afterwards it would be transparent and they would get lynched. If so it seems equally bad if not worse play as scum, to, if one is not an advocate oneself, single-handedly argue against both what the advocates advocate, with the full knowledge that not only is one likely to not be able to convince anyway, but is likely to look scummy for trying unsuccessfully to divert from the correct course of action while on-stage. On the other hand, if by a miracle one did convince everyone else to vote against the advocates, resulting in the wrong decision being made; one would be basically an automatic lynch choice when one comes off the stage.

Not only are these points a defence of us, but they serve to underline that yourself and Gaspar's attacks on us rely on reasoning which is inherently extremely faulty and single-minded, and ignores many, many mitiging factors, and is therefore scummy. I also consider the above quote very good evidence of you attempting to distance from Gaspar. You and Gaspar are welcome to try and argue why your attacks are not scummy in light of the above. And you are welcome to explain why you weren't attempting to distance from Gaspar in post 305.

[Talilan]

Also, the fact you ignored it (or failed to notice it) and failed to respond when Glork pointed it out in 310 suggests to me you are not having a dynamic conversation with him as one would if you were an innocent and not aware of his alignment. You would instantly jump in to clarify and justify what you meant, and why you'd trailed off and forgotten to finish what you were writing.

[Talilan]

The only thing I fear today is that KY Krew might pull themselves On Stage at the last moment if they are going to be lynched. So let's just agree to this now:
KY Krew, if you put yourself on stage during the last five days maximum of the scene OR do not replace either MafiaJin/Talian/whoever is most suspicious on stage, then you will be lynched at the next available opportunity.

Thanks for this step-by-step guide of how to avoid lynch and get an innocent lynched that you gave to KY Krew, btw.

-Talitha (still reading)

[Talilan]

At least there's an OR in there. How far away is deadline anyway?

-Tal

[Talilan]

Btw as far as I can tell we both agree that KY Crew is very, very scummy also if that wasn't clear. Plus zwet's defence of him "COME ON GUYS HEAR WHAT HE HAS TO SAY" is exactly how zwet would act towards his buddy.

zwet's been scum for: overreacting to DGB declaring she can read his alignment when he's previously acknowledged that is the case. Then sucking up to DGB. Then doing nothing else I can remember. Then defending KY Crew who is also scum.

Four scum on day one is a new record for me I think.

- ort

[Talilan]

You know I just realised Carrie Fisher is in scene two also (which means unless KY Crew gets changed/murdered somehow he will be in Scene 2 tomorrow instead of off-stage where he's lynchable).

- ort (damn time zone differences)

[Talilan]

Yeah, the timezone thing means we have a whole lot of posts in a row. I hope we'll be forgiven for another one, because I don't think I'll get a chance to post again for about 20 hours (sleep+work+kids soccer practice).

--------

If someone has a great idea for a picture from zwetschenwasser that gets across the idea that we don't trust KY Krew I'd be all for it. I'm not quite sure what would do that though. A picture of Kentucky with an X through it perhaps?

A picture of Carrie Fisher doctored to have red satanic horns and a tail? With a big thumbs down beside her for extra emphasis? It'd be great to have something nice and clear ready to go in case KY-Carrie tries to get them to follow Locke.
Carrie's supposed to be in the next scene but at least she'll be joined by MO, Rawr & MJL. I hope she gets stunted back.

-------------

In other news, I think my hydra partner ortolan is pretty awesome with his explanations and postings. He failed to mention that it was me who did most of the stuff people found suspicious. I was the one who got it in my head that the Decision might have 2 bad outcomes (I thought that Valentine & Locke might both have had the same offer, therefore we'd be better going with the known rather than the unknown). Like PJ, I was suspicious of Valentine's evasiveness, and also not quite trusting Locke. But from discussion with ortolan and his remembering of the rules I worked my way through to arrive at the conclusion Valentine should drive. I don't think any harm was done by carefully examining the two options. I think we did a lot better than if we had decided early it was a no-brainer (like some of you did) and had nothing meaningful to say for the rest of the time while waiting impatiently for some sign that off-stage was ready to end the scene.

----------

I'm pretty happy with Ort's condorcet, except I don't rate elmosaur as quite as suspicious as Gaspar.

-----------

DGB: Just one thing I was wondering about. You said that you don't think Zwet is scum because he hasn't been bussed. But you also said you think there's likely only 2 scum offstage. If Zwet was one of those scum, that would only leave one to do the bussing, so your reason for thinkiing him innocent doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Also, do you think that all players here would bus zwet if he was their only currently-in-thread scumbuddy?


----Tal (Goodnight, and I'm sorry for the excessive in-a-row posting)

[Mighty Orbots]

Sorry for my absence. I am full of flu.

Just like to note that elmo has gone underground and I'm glad Jelly-person sees what I see.

Catcheting up.

-PZ

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

DGB: Just one thing I was wondering about. You said that you don't think Zwet is scum because he hasn't been bussed. But you also said you think there's likely only 2 scum offstage. If Zwet was one of those scum, that would only leave one to do the bussing, so your reason for thinkiing him innocent doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Mmm, I guess I didn't think that through properly... yeah.

-DGB

[Gaspar]

KY is so getting lynched tomorrow, it's not even funny.

I would be okay with an image that has inHim/Raj/KY Krew's avatars with BIG RED Xes through them (or something like this over them).

I mean, KY was at Lynch -2, with Zwet likely to vote them last I checked (correct me if this is wrong, Zwet). He was obviously in "you need to claim" territory, was leading the condorcet, and decided that he apparently had to jump onstage and share information with everyone. Bad news bears.


In the meantime, I can't wait for Talilan to respond to the posts I've made regarding her.