/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[Ojanen]

As a general note, if you see me posting between 5 and 6 in the morning, it means I'm making a quick 5 minute post right before I leave for work; don't expect any kind of detailed analysis or anything from those posts, it'll usually just a quick one-line response to something.

I'm on a vastly different timezone to you and won't probably have patience to regularly check what the timestamp from your perspective is.
This response isn't satisfactory though: your time doesn't explain why you didn't comment to the wagon (in fact ignored a direct question) when you were catching up the previous night and posted 3 times.
I'd still like to know the other games you're currently alive in please.

I have found Xyl to be kinda paradoxically transparent behind the nonchalant playstyle actually and I have similar thoughts about who is scummy. I disagree that he wouldn't have been scumhunting.

I don't like charter's contributions one bit today. Elvis point is weird, elvis' explanation of the vote is clearly more of a pressure one and she was, what, around 4th on the exploding wagon originally iirc.
Tunneling on Xyl and Thesp is bad. It, frankly, almost feels like he looked who didn't write a paragraph with their VP vote and picked out bits to make them look bad. I'm pretty sure similar points could be made about others ("pointless post", "set up to vote someone"), but he almost completely ignores everyone else in the commentary with post numbers. Some of it is just fluff, like "Xyl answered the question directed to Thesp in RVS". Question wasn't anything personal, just a quasi-invitiation to join a random Yos wagon which Xyl answered "yes" from his part.
Also, ekiM wagon today is "clearly scumdriven" but his suspicions haven't driven it (Xyl not on at all, Thesp on for a few hours) and he fails to look at the voters.
Also, Yos is one of the few other people commented, my post suspecting Yos is deemed good, and charter calls Yos' SC vote OMGUS, but Yos doesn't make his suspicion list.

How are Yos and VP scumbuddies at all?

What speaks against it?

SC's 844 is strangely disagreeable. I'd be interested to see if he finds this rolefishing accusation still bad if he actually checked the context of the original zu comment. I find VP scummy but the build up of the wagon was in a different timescope which would contribute to the reactions of calls to lynch.

[SerialClergyman]

Ojanen - I absolutely still find it bad. Asking why someone suspects or clears someone else is not role fishing, especially if it's out of the blue.

And zu seems like overeager scumhunter to me, where Elvis has twice said something like "I was thinking that too!"

if she was thinking it, why not say it? Don't like how the discussion went down.

I'm posting on my phone so this is my impression of events an it's difficult to check. Feel free to correct me if I've got it wrong.

[elvis_knits]

SC, do you know what a breadcrumb is?

[Thesp]

I'm good with a VP Baltar lynch. Yosarian2, what do you think?

Another Thesp-is-scum-ism! Why is he asking Yos when he would be fine voting for Yos?

1) To ascertain how confident I am in my suspicions of Yosarian2,
2) To force Yosarian2 to take some sort of position on VP Baltar,
3) To highlight Yosarian2's noncommittal on VP Baltar, or
4) A combination of the first three.

(It's #4.)

[roflcopter]

not much time at the moment, i'm not happy to see that the serial wagon has completely evaporated.

unvote, vote: xyl

he should know better than to vote for yos again at this point

[mith]

Vote Count:

8 to lynch.

ekiM: 5 (elvis_knits, Kmd4390, populartajo, VP Baltar, zu_Faul)
VP Baltar: 5 (ekiM, iamausername, Ojanen, SerialClergyman, Thesp)
Xylthixlm: 2 (charter, roflcopter)
SerialClergyman: 1 (Yosarian2)
Yosarian2: 1 (Xylthixlm)

Not Voting: 1 (PookyTheMagicalBear)

[roflcopter]

i really don't like the baltar wagon. serialclergyman had a serious case of having his cake and eating it too in posts 772-773. joining the baltar wagon, and the turning around and slinging mud at ekim for

joining the baltar wagon

? i don't think there's a more obvious way to admit that you know the wagon you're on is bullshit.

[roflcopter]

username: yes it was an oversight. i just scanned the new york and theme park forums for my past games, and mafia 90 was such an affront to humanity that it didn't catch my eye as a game i had played in. i also forgot real time mafia, a game which ended up mod abandoned.

as for my current games, my only other ongoing is webcomics wars mafia

3. In this post, rofl says that Claus has a solid case against Yos, but that Yos doesn't fit as a partner of BaB. So why, when BaB did NOT flip scum, has rofl gone ahead and started acting like he is confirmed town anyway? I think his post here was an attempt to placate Claus and push the BaB wagon through to mislynch, because he clearly had no intention of actually following up on this suspicion of Yos.

thats a very narrowminded view of what could possibly cause me to change my opinion between the end of day one and the beginning of day two

[VP Baltar]

Oj, what do you think of rofl?

[elvis_knits]

i really don't like the baltar wagon. serialclergyman had a serious case of having his cake and eating it too in posts 772-773. joining the baltar wagon, and the turning around and slinging mud at ekim for

joining the baltar wagon

? i don't think there's a more obvious way to admit that you know the wagon you're on is bullshit.

This is a good point I didn't notice in the midst of the flurry of voting.

[Ojanen]

Oj, what do you think of rofl?

Despite having jotted down a few concerns in the post I voted you, prob town.

I actually agree that SC's was the vote that looked suspect on the VP wagon due to the undermining of ekiM's case.

Rofl, why is it scummy to vote Yos at this point?

[Ojanen]

Baltar, can you give your current gameview besides suspecting ekiM and IAUN (scum/neutral/town or something more meaty to that effect)?

[VP Baltar]

Baltar, can you give your current gameview besides suspecting ekiM and IAUN (scum/neutral/town or something more meaty to that effect)?

If I was going to make a list of scummiest to least scummiest in my mind it would read like this:

ekiM
IAAUN
SC
Yos
Thesp
Xyl
zu_Faul
Pooky
Kmd
tajo
Oj
rofl
Ek
charter

[populartajo]

Im back. Grandpa is still in the hospital but he is well.

Expect a reread from me tonight.

[SerialClergyman]

serialclergyman had a serious case of having his cake and eating it too in posts 772-773. joining the baltar wagon, and the turning around and slinging mud at ekim for

joining the baltar wagon?

making up bad and repetitive reasons to join.

Fixed.

Someone joins the wagon I'm on for bad reasons, I point it out and I'm scummy? That shows I'm unsure about the situation, not that I have any knowledge of the wagon being good or bad.

Mind you, if it means Zu recognises me as town and rofl and elvis are the ones who don't, I think I'm ok with it.

Although I'm disappointed at Ojanen.

Rofl - any comment on the rolefishing argument or are you leaving that one alone?

Elvis I'm fully aware of what a breadcrumb is. One thing that it usually is is subtle. But aside from that, if he is a PR breadcrumbing and he's called on it he's got the ability to say 'gut' or the like, in which case I won't be too convinced but there won't be a PR outed either. The only other option is leaving any odd declarations of suspicion or innocence completely unexplored, which is ridiculous. We need to have the right to challenge odd reads or changes of mind.

Finally, your question about the breadcrumb appears to be rolefishing in and of itself, under your definition. Are you trying to get the person to confirm or deny it was a breadcrumb?

Also this:

SC's 844 is strangely disagreeable. I'd be interested to see if he finds this rolefishing accusation still bad if he actually checked the context of the original zu comment.

Ojanen - I absolutely still find it bad. Asking why someone suspects or clears someone else is not role fishing, especially if it's out of the blue.

Rofl, why is it scummy to vote Yos at this point?

See? Not scummy. You're just lucky I got here before try cry goes up that you're fishing for an investigation or the like from rofl and Zu found a big picutre of a tuna and Elvis came along and said she was thinking the same thing.

[SerialClergyman]

And that's good news, tajo, hope everything's ok.

[Xylthixlm]

serialclergyman had a serious case of having his cake and eating it too in posts 772-773. joining the baltar wagon, and the turning around and slinging mud at ekim for

joining the baltar wagon?

making up bad and repetitive reasons to join.

Fixed.

Someone joins the wagon I'm on for bad reasons, I point it out and I'm scummy? That shows I'm unsure about the situation, not that I have any knowledge of the wagon being good or bad.

Mind you, if it means Zu recognises me as town and rofl and elvis are the ones who don't, I think I'm ok with it.

Although I'm disappointed at Ojanen.

Okay, SerialClergyman is town.

[Yosarian2]

This response isn't satisfactory though: your time doesn't explain why you didn't comment to the wagon (in fact ignored a direct question) when you were catching up the previous night and posted 3 times.

I managed to get basically caught up Sunday night when I got home, but I didn't have time to do a iso read of VP until Monday night.

I'd still like to know the other games you're currently alive in please.

Uh, ok, sure.

Battle mafia: viewtopic.php?t=12167&start=0
Vengeful 5p: viewtopic.php?t=11996&start=0

Games that either ended or I died in the last few days:
Newbie 812 viewtopic.php?t=11836&start=425
Warewolves of Miller Hollow viewtopic.php?t=11168&start=0

Also, I'm in the california trillogy game as a hydra with elmo, but that dosn't really help you since the main game thread is hidden. viewtopic.php?t=12143&start=0

I have found Xyl to be kinda paradoxically transparent behind the nonchalant playstyle actually and I have similar thoughts about who is scummy. I disagree that he wouldn't have been scumhunting.

It's not that he's not transparent...here, let me re-read him real quick and I think I'll be able to explain what I mean in my next post.

[Yosarian2]

Ok, Ojanen, perhaps this will make it more clear what I'm trying to say. These are all Xyl's day 2 votes, starting from most recent and going backwards.

Anyway, are we going to get any, like, actual scumhunting from you any time this game, or are you going to just keep making snide remarks, unexplained votes, and random sniping at people from the sidelines?

Huh, so Yos

is

scum.

unvote, vote Yosarian2

Well this is promising.

unvote, vote: VP Baltar

(L-1)

Meh

unvote, vote PookyTheMagicalBear

SerialClergyman: 3 (elvis_knits, roflcopter, zu_Faul)

This bandwagon is obviously made of win.

vote: SerialClergyman

I should say that I totally agree with SerialClergyman's post 558 on Yos2.

Oh, and

unvote
vote Yosarian2

I don't have time to figure out what's going on here right now

vote: SerialClergyman

Now, yes, I do know who he suspects. I don't even have any problems with most of the specific votes. However, that's not the thing that's bothering me about his behavior.

Ignoring the votes on me for the moment, in basically every one of those cases, I can perfectly understand why he voted the way he did. However, also in all of those cases (again, ignoring me here), it was not a person he had attacked otherwise. I don't see any other posts at all where he himself attacked serialclergyman, or VP Baller, or Pooky. (There were some one liners scattered throughout the day when he took a shot at me, but even those strike me more as "sniping from the sidelines" then anything else)

Basically, the pattern of his voting today (and to a certain extent all game) has been to wait until someone else attacks a person and "softens them up", and then he follows someone their attack and votes the person. He seems not especally interested in going after scum himself, or in trying to find scum himself, and he generally dosn't give reasons for his votes.

The same is basically true of his day 1 votes; he voted eikM without giving a reason, then later voted B&B because he agreed with my attack on B&B, then later voted eikM in response to Claus's attacking on him. His behavior day 1 wasn't quite as bad, he did show signs of having his own opinion from time to time (such as his unvote on B&B), but in general, it fits the same pattern.

My impression from his play this game, specifically from the way he's been choosing to use his votes, is that he's avoiding picking a fight with anyone himself; he's letting other people pick the fights, he's letting other people be agressive, and then if it the attack seems to be going somewhere he uses his vote to push the wagon on at the person who looks vulnerable at that point in time (which is what I meant when I said he was "sniping at people from the sidelines"); basically, that he's not really doing his own scumhunting at all. He also seems just...disinterested, I'm not getting the vibe that he really cares who gets lynched.

The only real reasoning he gave for all this was a process of elimination things; "These players look town, and I'm willing to lynch anyone else". Which is fine, I like process of elimination, but I would still expect town-Xyl to have SOME preference about which of the "others" he wants to lynch. It dosn't seem like he does.

And, when I point this out, his reaction is to OMGUS vote me. Which, interestingly, is basically the only vote all game that breaks the "wait for someone else to attack and then follow up" pattern.

[Xylthixlm]

Your theory has a Pooky-sized hole in it

[Xylthixlm]

Unless your theory is that everyone I've voted is someone who someone else has at some point expressed suspicion of, in which case ... yes, and?

[Yosarian2]

Unless your theory is that everyone I've voted is someone who someone else has at some point expressed suspicion of, in which case ... yes, and?

And, you seem to be waiting for someone else to scumhunt, to attack someone, and then using their attack to justify your own vote without giving any of your own reasons. It looks like a way for you to vote people while not looking bad yourself if a townie gets lynched, and for you to avoid getting into arguments yourself. None of your votes look like you are trying to strike off on your own to try and find scum.

Let me put it this way. Using your own example, why is it you never mentioned Pooky at any point after that vote? If your goal was to pressure a lurker, then why haven't you done anything else to try to pressure him, not even a "and we still need to hear from Pooky, I'd still be willing to lynch him if he dosn't post" one-liner or anything?

[Xylthixlm]

None of your votes look like you are trying to strike off on your own to try and find scum.

Your theory has a Yosarian2-sized hole in it

why haven't you done anything else to try to pressure him, not even a "and we still need to hear from Pooky, I'd still be willing to lynch him if he dosn't post" one-liner or anything?

I thought that part was obvious

[Yosarian2]

None of your votes look like you are trying to strike off on your own to try and find scum.

Your theory has a Yosarian2-sized hole in it

Nope, it dosn't. Your inital vote on me also follows the same pattern; you waited until both SerialClergyman and Ojanen to attack me, and then used their arguments, sc's arguments specifically, as a reason to vote me without doing any scumhunting of your own.

It's especally odd to see you sheeping on SC like that, when you supposed suspected him (you were voting him both before AND after you voted me) and when his arguments frankly didn't make much sense at all. And then even when I tried to specifically question you about exactly what parts of his post you agreed in, you avoided the question; even when I rephrased it in a deliberately argumentative way, you still avoided actually answering the question except with a joke; it looks like you were trying quite hard to avoid a direct argument with me over specific points, that you would rather, well, at the risk of repeating myself, snipe from the sidelines then fight the battles yourself.

[charter]

How are Yos and VP scumbuddies at all?

What speaks against it?

That's not how this works, have you been going to Xylschool of nonexistant scumhunting? (joke) But seriously, I don't see how they are connected at all, can you enlighten me?

More Xyl votes. How can anyone think he looks town after him and Yos's back and forth? Xyl's Yos votes have been terrible, as have all of his votes. Xyl is scum! It is obvious.