California Trilogy: City of Angels - Off Stage (Game Over)

[Gaspar]

Anyway, as I said in my post, I'm really made uncomfortable by how much you're focusing so much on MafiaJin, just because he put himself in the scene, especally considering that he did that so early before we had really worked out exactally what all of that meant in thread. Using that as a reason for suspicion isn't irrational, but it seem really, really weak to me, and far less relevent then stuff that has happened since day 1 started to me.

Funny you should say that, considering I haven't mentioned MafiaJin in over two pages.

Um

I'm not nearly as sure about Krew, Jin, or Talilan as I am about MafiaJin being scum, but I'd be willing to throw down a Day One lynch on any of the four, really.

This was only two posts before my vote, glork. What do you mean you "hadn't mentioned mafiajin in 2 pages?"

I swear, I filtered my posts and did a Ctrl+F and it skipped straight back to a post I made several days ago. I don't know what happened there, but my mistake.

Even when you talked about your suspicions on other people, you still seemed to be focusing on mafiajin in a way that seemed strange to me; the way you worded that post, I wonder if you were setting up for something like this tommorow: "Well, I was wrong about X being scum, but that's ok because I was more sure about mafiajin the whole time, vote:mafiajin".

Interesting that you choose to mention this ahead of time. If you were to bring up that argument, I suppose I would bring up two counterexamples. In CT2, I was town and went after MBL as scum nearly every single day, but I always ended up sliding onto someone else. In that one game where Elmo/Patrick/Ether were scum, I kept coming back to Elmo, but kept sliding away from him towards the end of the day. Latching onto one person but settling for another lynch is something I've done in the past. Sometimes it has helped, and sometimes (such as in these two cases), it has not.

[Gaspar]

Also, a complete condorcet. I think three of my top 5 suspects are On Camera right now (Jin, Talilan, Hewitt), which really annoys me.

Unvote
Vote: Zwet

, KY Krew, [Seraphim, Thok], [Rawr Hydra, ShadowLurker, GoofballsandBaloons], [Orbots, Elmo, Bagel Eating Cowfrog], No Lynch, Gaspar

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

According to Thok's list, he'd rather not have a lynch at all than lynch zwetschenwasser, gaspar or elmosaurian. I'm not really comfortable with that. I'm also not comfortable with the fact that he hasn't done any scumhunting since his condorcet vote/post thing.

Zwet seems to have disappeared completely which is utterly bizarre, given what I've seen of his playing style before. It might be a sitewide trend for him to lower activity, though, which is something I need to check.

I have bad gut feelings on Gaspar too (wooh can we form a club or something?) The more I mull over it, the more I really hate his push on MafiaJin for an action which seems to me to be at most mildly scummy. (Sidenote: possible bussing push on zwet)

The on camera thing seems a complete mess, and I don't understand how anyone can possibly think it is a difficult decision. Talilan seems to be coming round at last, though.

I feel like we're playing with half the cast, since we're minus all on camera people and minus a couple of players (seraphim and rawr hydra, then thok, KY krew and Shadowlurker are all kinda sitting in the background too. I think SL looks town though.)

-Shanba

[KY Krew]

Alright, so inHim has this really stupid form of tunneling - I pretty much really, really want to be right, so everything that a player (whom I have suspected) does I tend to view it with a "why would scum do this" angle, and force my opinion to be right to me.

raj thinks it's dumb, but he can't spell so he won't post (real reason is grad school has started), so I'm stuck trying to right the Krew's ship, and I'm doing so with a fresh read on the game.

Mighty Orbots - has brought helpful contributions to the game. I still want to think that Zito has been slipping up and the hydra is scum, but mechanical advice so sound, a high activity rate (conveying excitement and commitment), and 10 other players saying I'm an idiot surely all rate MO as more town than I first gave him credit.

possible Off Stage partners

: G&B, maybe Seraphim

zwetschenwasser - I like the votes for zwet based on previous principles that z himself has established, but not the reasons for those votes. It's zwet, we pretty much all know what to usually expect, and now that he is making some more thorough posts, people want to lynch him over that. It seems unfair, and I think unfair is often scum-related. Some specific items I do not like from zwet are that he kept on saying how he was not comfortable with the mechanics, like it was a crutch, and then some parroting of suspicion. One example of parroting:

I agree with Gaspar. It seems like a telling slip to me.

possible Off Stage partners

: Thok, Gaspar (this was a bit tougher)

So, for now, it will be an unvote, and then more review. Currently, I think we are in a good position - most people are active and paying attention, and we can comfortably use all of our time, as On-Camera decisions are pointing to Valentine driving, which I very much agree is the right choice, and they are aware of the Off Stage signals.

-inHim

unvote

[Gaspar]

According to Thok's list, he'd rather not have a lynch at all than lynch zwetschenwasser, gaspar or elmosaurian. I'm not really comfortable with that. I'm also not comfortable with the fact that he hasn't done any scumhunting since his condorcet vote/post thing.

I'd just like to point out that SL has done the same thing. (OOOOOOOH, DEFLECTION, RAJ!!!)

KY Krew might want to claim. SL's vote put him at Lynch -1. I have moved off temporarily because I don't want Zwet to just drop the hammer prematurely, but I'm not unwilling to hop back.


Thok, you have been much quieter than I would like. What's going on inside that head of yours?

[Mr. Grey]

Vote Count:

6 to lynch.

KY Krew: 3 (elmosaurian, GoofballsAndBaloons, ShadowLurker)
zwetschenwasser: 3 (Bagel Eating Cowfrog, Gaspar, Mighty Orbots)
GoofballsAndBaloons: 1 (Thok)

Not Voting: 4 (KY Krew, Rawr Hydra, Seraphim, zwetschenwasser)

Current Condorcet Winner:

None. Current Smith Set: KY Krew, zwetschenwasser

To view the complete table of pairwise results, put the following information into this form.

1,Bagel Eating Cowfrog
2,elmosaurian
3,Gaspar
4,GoofballsAndBaloons
5,KY Krew
6,Mighty Orbots
7,Rawr Hydra
8,Seraphim
9,ShadowLurker
10,Thok
11,zwetschenwasser
12,No Lynch

1:11>5>7>2=3=4=8=10>6>9>12>1
1:5>3>11>1>4=7=8=9=10>6>12>2
1:11>5>8=10>4=7=9>1=2=6>12>3
1:5=11>9>1=2=7=8=10>3=6>4>12
1:1=2=3=4=6=7=8=9=10=11=12>5
1:11>5>7=8>4=9>1=2=3=10>12>6
1:1=2=3=4=5=6=8=9=10=11=12>7
1:1=2=3=4=5=6=7=9=10=11=12>8
1:5>11>7=8>3>1>10>12>6>2>4>9
1:4>5=7>8>1=6>9>12>11>2=3>10
1:1=2=3=4=5=6=7=8=9=10=12>11

[Thok]

Sigh. Double posting with a version that doesn't have messed up quote tags.

According to Thok's list, he'd rather not have a lynch at all than lynch zwetschenwasser, gaspar or elmosaurian. I'm not really comfortable with that. I'm also not comfortable with the fact that he hasn't done any scumhunting since his condorcet vote/post thing.

Is your concern more that I have any people below no lynch, or that I have those specific three below no lynch? Early day 1 that's basically saying "I don't think a random wagon on these people is helpful".

For what it's worth, it's clear I need to revamp my vote and when I do zwet will be above no lynch, given what people have said about his meta.

Thok, you have been much quieter than I would like. What's going on inside that head of yours?

Yeah, I've been quieter than I would like also. This is also my first mafia game in a while (and the few games I've done before that were mostly newbies.) I'm also trying to be a bit more diplomatic than normal, given what happened with me and MOS in the invitational and also what happened in a few of the newbie games before I took my short hiatus. (This isn't an excuse for my relative passivity/lack of posting: my style of posting and frequency of posting really shouldn't be related.)

My poke at DGB was an attempt to get a feel for how she felt the game was going; she really was tunneled on zwet early on for not obvious reasons. It reminds me of Evolution mafia (PJ and pie's weird theme game) where she was focused on a Fritz-scum but made no effort to hunt for people in a second scum group, which was a hint that she belonged to that other scum group; I wouldn't be shocked if one of zwet/DGB was an SK-neutral type and the other was scum. I haven't decided how her response to my questions make me feel.

A quick glance at the KY Krew wagon finds the Inhim half of the hydra scummier than the Raj half. The raj vote on SL feels like a raj tell (although with raj not posting I can't really read much into him.) The KY Krew seems to be focusing more on active posters who have an interest in game mechanics (using a very loose definition of active in some sense.)

Finally, I'd guess that Seraphim is being replaced in 24 hours (assuming that the replacement list isn't empty; a replacement is preferable to a modkill.)

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

My poke at DGB was an attempt to get a feel for how she felt the game was going; she really was tunneled on zwet early on for not obvious reasons.

I said it's because he's easiest for me to read. Right now I don't think he's on any scum team, because his buddies would have bus'ed him fatally already.

It reminds me of Evolution mafia (PJ and pie's weird theme game) where she was focused on a Fritz-scum but made no effort to hunt for people in a second scum group, which was a hint that she belonged to that other scum group...

Funny, I'm actually not tunneling on zwet as much as some other players, some of which are backing up their suspicion with a vote. If you want to find me tunneling, please let it be on KY Krew.

Finally, I'd guess that Seraphim is being replaced in 24 hours (assuming that the replacement list isn't empty; a replacement is preferable to a modkill.)

Looks like plenty of potential replacements on the list.

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

at the people On Camera. I'm starting to think they have forgotten that the decisions they make will affect the endgame, as a few of them are pushing for choosing Locke.

Right now I'd be fine with either a KY or zwet lynch (preferably zwet). Zwet, have you got around to answering mine or anyone else's questions yet?

-dahill

[zwetschenwasser]

My internet is acting up. My condorcet:

Vote KY Krew, Mighty Orbots, Thok, Seraphim, Gaspar, [Shadowlurker, Bagel Eating Cowfrog], Rawr Hydra, No Lynch, Goofballs and Balloons

I'm considering whether I find Orbots or Thok scummier. Thok, from what I've seen of him, isn't this quiet and doesn't post so quietly, even with excuses. He lied, saying that DGB was tunnelling on me. Seraphim typically doesn't lurk this much in games, KY Krew has been making too much nonsensicalness (even trying to mask his desire to policy lynch me with a strange analogy), and I find Shadowlurker slightly scummy for his overeager vote.

Only votes at the end of the post are counted. Tags removed. - Mod

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Is your concern more that I have any people below no lynch, or that I have those specific three below no lynch? Early day 1 that's basically saying "I don't think a random wagon on these people is helpful".

The former. Basically, you're saying you'd rather not lynch anyone today than lynch these three people, which is bizarre given the sitewide meta of lynch at all costs.

-Shanba

[Thok]

He lied, saying that DGB was tunnelling on me.

Her first five or six posts were about either game mechanics or you. She only started looking at other scum (following Gaspar to MafiaJin) after she was accused of tunneling by MightyOrbots. That's what I was referring to when I said that "she really was tunneled on zwet early on for not obvious reasons."

Or do you just not consider that tunneling at all?

The former. Basically, you're saying you'd rather not lynch anyone today than lynch these three people, which is bizarre given the sitewide meta of lynch at all costs.

-Shanba

I can see your confusion: I'm really saying that at this moment in time, I don't think a lynch of one of those people is better than no lynch. If sufficient new evidence came up today, I would change my vote to reflect that. (Says the person who needs to change his vote to reflect new evidence.)

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

Thok, from what I've seen of him, isn't this quiet and doesn't post so quietly, even with excuses.

lol hypocrisy

do you realize that this also applies to you pretty much exactly?

-dahill

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Or do you just not consider that tunneling at all?

Given that I've altered my stance on zwet's alignment past some early poking to see which way he'd flinch, and other players would sway, I don't see how you can call it tunneling. I don't care what Orbots thinks, either. I like to get a grip on zwet's alignment early because he gets lynched/bus'ed early. If I find him scum, then it's easy to zoom in on his buddies after zwet is lynched. If I find him town, you can usually find the opportunistic scum just as easily. Plus I read him (and players' reactions to him) like a book - within a few pages, usually.

Presently I'm not super-confident of Gaspar's alignment on account of the reasons and placement of his vote in the order. He could have unvoted if he wanted to prevent a KY Krew quick lynch. But he switched to zwet.

I'm also not seeing a whole lot of scumhunting from Cowfrog. Given the collective abilities of this

triple

hydra, I was expecting them to blow my socks off. So the zwet vote strikes me as a little cheap.

I'm also disappointed to see that's where Orbots landed his vote, but I can see Papa Zito doing it.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

Thok, from what I've seen of him, isn't this quiet and doesn't post so quietly, even with excuses.

lol hypocrisy

do you realize that this also applies to you pretty much exactly?

-dahill

Gaspar seems to think that Thok is quieter than usual, too.

Do you recall this Thok post?

Could somebody familiar with zwet's meta give me a rough idea of what you think is his typical scum and town behavior? (It seems like he's posting less than I would expect him to given his reputation[...]

Thok said the same thing about zwet, that zwet just said about Thok, if only in a slightly wishy-washier way.

Do you want to "lol hypocrisy" to Thok too?

-DGB

[Bagel Eating Cowfrog]

I agree that Thok is being quieter than usual, as well. That's not the issue.
zwet was directly relating Thok's quietness to being scum, while Thok didn't seem to being doing the same to zwet just making a note of his sparse posting. zwet quite obviously contradicted himself by calling someone scummy for repeating his own actions.

Our vote on zwet isn't "cheap". We put on him because he's...scummy. This isn't a policy vote. Also, I believe it was Zorblag who placed the vote on zwet not Papa Zito, iirc.

-dahill

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

...while Thok didn't seem to being doing the same to zwet just making a note of his sparse posting.

Could somebody familiar with zwet's meta give me a rough idea of what you think is his typical scum and town behavior?

Thok's objective was to assess zwet's alignment. It's more subtle, and he reached no conclusion because no one spoon fed him data on zwet's meta, but there's a similarity there.

Our vote on zwet isn't "cheap". We put on him because he's...scummy.

Your current thoughts on the KY Krew wagon vs. the zwet wagon would be much appreciated.

-DGB

[Mighty Orbots]

I'm also disappointed to see that's where Orbots landed his vote, but I can see Papa Zito doing it.

As Bagel Eating Cowfrog says, the vote for zwetschenwasser came from Zorblag, not from Papa Zito. I suppose that what I'd like to see from him is a plan to deal with the communication tomorrow as I'll be on camera and not able to pass messages on. Right now he seems to be stalling when I think he should be giving clear messages and not reacting like we need him to. Having a plan that I think works come from him might help mitigate my opinion for now. Especially if he followed it during scene two.

Having said that, I've come up with something already so if I don't get an answer I like I'm going to keep my vote where it is and push for something that I'm pretty sure will do the job nicely.

I do currently think that the on camera crew probably has things under control. I like what Talilan is doing now and I don't think that MufBlade is going to be able to confuse things too much.

Along those lines we can put MufBalde on my list of those on camera that I don't like the behavior of at all. I don't have experience with either Mufasa or 12Keyblade; can anyone let me know if this is what they'd expect from them if they're town?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Gaspar]

Can we get claims out of Zwet and KY already? I'm bored.

[Mr. Grey]

Mod Note:

MrJellyLee (MrBuddyLee/petroleumjelly) replaces Seraphim.

[ShadowLurker]

KY Krew might want to claim. SL's vote put him at Lynch -1. I have moved off temporarily because I don't want Zwet to just drop the hammer prematurely, but I'm not unwilling to hop back.

Actually KY Krew is the only person I've voted all game; I've just been revoting to update my Condorcet list.

I find Shadowlurker slightly scummy for his overeager vote.

The former. Basically, you're saying you'd rather not lynch anyone today than lynch these three people, which is bizarre given the sitewide meta of lynch at all costs.

Since I also have three people below my NL, I'd like to respond to this.
Why should a sitewide meta dictate how you vote?
The three people I have below NL I feel pretty town about and even if they were scum, are being helpful enough that their being lynched is I think more detrimental than helpful.
Also in a Condorcet system, I highly doubt NL would ever be the winner.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

hey guys, I'm currently working on a big 'ole meta of zwet. I think he's such an easy lynch to make in games, that I'm going to figure out what exactly seperates his different playstyles as scum and town.

-bridges.

[zwetschenwasser]

Can we get claims out of Zwet and KY already? I'm bored.

You must be joking. I'm no longer tied with KY for condorcet winner (I think). Rolefishing much? Shadow, I think you should have been more cautious with your vote on KY.

[GoofballsAndBaloons]

I see to no reason to clamor for claims when both vote leaders have only 3/6 votes required for a lynch.

If a player grows some and puts someone at L-2, we'll start talking claims.

-DGB

[zwetschenwasser]

^this