Newbie 818 (Game Over)

[hohum]

All in all it was a pleasurable game to watch. Certainly a slow starter but once it got rolling you guys did a fantastic job. The early replacing was somewhat of a pain but thanks to attentive replacements we got through D1 in stride.

I must say I figured the D1 cop claim was going to sink the town, but you guys rebounded nicely. For future reference PR claims on D1 usually don't end well and in this case you guys got lucky.

Raskol: In the absence of a counterclaim, the right move on N2 would have been to protect the claimed cop, though it wouldn't have mattered in this case. Investigation results are far more useful than having a living IC in the game. I can only figure that's why katy didn't try to kill adamrights.

I see some real talent emerging in the players in this game. Rarely do newbie games go as smoothly as this one. It was a pleasure to watch and a pleasure to mod for you. All in all, good game guys!

Any feedback from you guys would be lovely, especially regarding my modding.

[MiteyMouse]

Nice game guys!

Looking at the Night 1 actions...wow! It's pretty special to have the actions work out like that so early in the game!

Congrats to the Townies on a game well played! And Scum, you did pretty well too...though I'm a bit biased for the Town.

I'll comment further tomorrow.

[Pomegranate]

Thanks hohum, the modding was great! I don't think I played my best, but the game was great! Both Exalt and Katy kept low, in the end it didn't help them, but we won due to our PRs. Exalt blowing up at Raskol didn't help him seem town at all, but at that point he was probably doomed anyway. Great play on D2 Raskol! Thanks for ICing, Pablo Molinero! GG everybody!

[Kirbyoshi]

Anybody up for an MVP vote? I'll go Raskol. When he picked up for DB, all suspicion pretty much disappeared, he scumhunted like crazy, AND he protected correctly N1. So, to make this official,

Vote MVP: Raskol

[Pomegranate]

Vote MVP: Raskol

[Pablo Molinero]

Yeah, this was the quickest, smoothest newbie game I've been in. A pleasure to play, this game got my attention and is definitely in my fave games I've played so far.

Katy and Exalt as the scum pair. Man. Katy played really well to blend in (which had me nice and paranoid considering our last game together), as did Exalt up until his doc-slip up. You were exactly right in what you said in the quick topic, Exalt. I was expecting you to be loud, abrasive, and gung-ho once again, so you sitting back a bit more threw me for a loop.

Great save, of course, Raskol. I like living! You really drove home Day 2 and I'm glad you agreed with me on the doc/save claim, because that ended up being huge.

Kirby, hopefully there are no hard feelings with my *ahem* "abrasive" attitude toward you. You actually pushed back at me in the way that made me think you town, though, so that's good. But the initial statements of guessing me as cop and exalt as doc were plenty head-scratching (kinda weird how that worked out with a cop and doc in the game, even though you were just vanilla). Hopefully you can learn from the role-talk experience, because I know many, many people on this site will use that kind of thing to torch you. You all played a good game, though. I'm used to 'weak-links' being picked off Days 1 and 2, but here the town was pretty solid and definitely helped push us toward the win.

And thanks for modding, hohum.

[hohum]

You guys realize this game was exactly 1 month long?

[CSL]

...You're right. One month exactly. Who would've thought.

I enjoyed watching you all play. It was a thriller.

[Raskol]

K yeah, the N2 action might have been off.

What I was thinking is, we have 3 confirmed town. They have a roleblock and a kill, I assume they'll use roleblock on a power role and kill on someone else.

They could kill me, in that case it doesn't matter who I target.

They could kill adamrights, in which case they're gonna roleblock me and it doesn't matter who I target.

Or they could kill Pablo, in which case they might roleblock me, or they might roleblock adam. I figured my only chance of getting a save is to prot Pablo then, as unlikely as it is they'd do that.

But it seems like for some reason Katy didn't (couldn't?) use her roleblock at all, so /shrug.

After reading the quicktopic I think the save was pretty lucky, although the IC usually does get killed so it wasn't necessarily an unsafe bet.

Anyway, good call on investigating Katy, adam. I think we had some good play from everyone, it was a pleasure! There isn't anyone in this game who I don't look forward to playing with again, and that's a first I think.

MM-sorry about the lynch, hehehe

[hohum]

each scum only get one night action per night. See the role PM listing in the 2nd post.

[Raskol]

Bah~~~that's a new one for me

[Raskol]

I guess my excuse will be that I've been sick for the last couple days and it's been harder to think clearly, but yeah....I really should have been on top of that :p

[Katy]

Good job guys, and excellent work Raskol. You really tied my hands in what I could do. I was sure you would be protecting Adam so I went ahead for the kill on you. Unfortunately was not allowed to roleblock and kill, and I figured if I kept roleblocking it would be endless

I was just hoping that Adam would have moved on to someone else - good job not continuing to push me in thread, I thought I could go a night without getting the investigation.

Well done, town.

[TDC]

I've only read along very loosely, but good job all in all. Pace was very good.

As for Raskol not protecting adam:
The only way Pablo could be scum, was if he purposely didn't submit a kill N1 in the hopes of being protected by the Doc, which is rather unreasonable. So he was pretty much confirmed at that point.
The only way Raskol could be scum, was if he purposely didn't submit a kill N1 to confirm himself, but if he was sucm, then there'd be no Doc and he could (and should) just've killed the Cop, so pretty confirmed as well.
adam could reasonable be seen as potential scum who was just lucky that the town had no Cop, when he claimed.
So I don't think protecting Pablo was actually a bad choice N2.
Killing Raskol was the only save way to get rid of a confirmed innocent for Katy, too. Though perhaps killing adam would've been a reasonable risk because Katy had to expect he might investigate her again.

The N1 protection choice of Raskol was of course playing with the fire a bit, as his claim would've lost a lot of credibility if the scum happened to kill adam anyway. But worked out nicely. No risk no fun, I guess

[Exalt]

Two things:

1. It was katy's idea to kill pablo. I wanted to avoid it since he was an IC, but w/e.

2. Katy, why did you kill the doc and not roleblock the cop? What the hell were you thinking? You roleblock the DOC and KILL the cop. That is the smartest thing to do.

Why did you kill the doc and not roleblock?

[Exalt]

each scum only get one night action per night. See the role PM listing in the 2nd post.

This is a really stupid rule. This wastes the roleblocker's role completely. Why did you make the game so impossible for scum to win?

[Exalt]

You were exactly right in what you said in the quick topic, Exalt. I was expecting you to be loud, abrasive, and gung-ho once again, so you sitting back a bit more threw me for a loop.

Yeah, I didn't really have the time to be as active as I wanted to. I was in like 5 games too... so yeah. Summer got in the way! By the time I made the doc slip up, I didn't have the activity to really get out of it and just decided to end the day quick.

[TDC]

Exalt: She could only do one, either roleblock or kill, not both.

[Exalt]

Exalt: She could only do one, either roleblock or kill, not both.

I understand that.. which makes her role useless if a situation happened where the goon were to die, which I did.

I think that the roleblocker should be able to do both actions if he/she is the only scum left. It only makes sense... because this game would not have been ended so quickly otherwise.

The only real option she had assuming the doc was going to protect the cop would be to roleblock the cop again, and keep hoping for misslynches. Eventually she would have lost either way, because she could not in good faith expect to win once the goon is dead in this setup with a doc and cop claim.

Think about it... you can lynch EVERYONE every single day, and yet the doc and the cop would never be lynched, and eventually she would be lynched herself in lylo if it got that far.

That is an unwinnable situation.

Now, if she killed the doc, and adam didn't investigate her, she had a VERY SMALL chance, but not a good one. Even still, it would confirm 3 townies, and she would be dead eventually.


A setup like this where she can either 1. roleblock or 2. kill... but not both at the same time... creates an unwinnable situation if the goon dies.. which is what happened. I do not like the way that was set up.

[TDC]

I understand what you mean.

The setup used here must be used in all newbie games, it's not a decision of the Mod.
However, there is ambiguity about whether the RB should be able to submit both actions when the Goon is dead. Games of either variety run, but the vast majority have it like here, that he can't.
This is a bit of a recent trend, it was the other way around when I played my first games.
I'm not entirely sure why this is. I suspect there are some threads on it somewhere in Mafia Discussion, but without the search function, it's kind of hard to find them. My guess would be, that in light of the high mafia win ration in Road To Rome (70% or somesuch), removing some power from the mafia was/is seen as slight attempt of balacing the F11 setup.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

It's Mod decision as to whether the RBer gets to do both if the Goon dies first. None of the arguments have swayed me one way or the other so I let the Mods decide.

[CSL]

each scum only get one night action per night. See the role PM listing in the 2nd post.

This is a really stupid rule. This wastes the roleblocker's role completely. Why did you make the game so impossible for scum to win?

That is agreeable. Stupidest. Rule. Ever.

[MiteyMouse]

I actually think this is a good rule. The roleblocker then has to decide what is more important to them, killing or blocking.

[hohum]

each scum only get one night action per night. See the role PM listing in the 2nd post.

This is a really stupid rule. This wastes the roleblocker's role completely. Why did you make the game so impossible for scum to win?

It's not a stupid rule, but you're right: it does make the game more challenging for the scum team. I run all my games in this manner: The mafia are handicapped to one night action per person and if there are no goons alive that basically kills someone's ability to use their PR if they want to submit kills. This is done as an incentive for the Mafia to coach their weak links and at least attempt to keep their partners alive because it's too easy to just simply throw your scum partner under a bus.

Exalt: The only thing I can say to you is if you hadn't slipped up on the whole doc business you might have been around longer to help your scum partner out. The loss in this case has as much to do with your inexperience as it does my bastard modding.

[Exalt]

Exalt: The only thing I can say to you is if you hadn't slipped up on the whole doc business you might have been around longer to help your scum partner out. The loss in this case has as much to do with your inexperience as it does my bastard modding.

quite possibly, except I've never played a mafia game where scum were so handicapped in such a way...

matter of fact, do you have a win percentage for scum in your mafia games with this type of setup? I can't imagine it being very high

Even with my slipup, which was due to me being inactive and not paying attention due to me being in 5 seperate games (and a newbie one not being on top of my list), I can't imagine a game would be so unwinnable based on if the goon lives or dies early in the game...

With a cop and a doc setup, this makes it next to impossible to win if both were to claim early after a goon dies. I'm sure you can see the dilemma here.