Open 144 - Near-Vanilla - GAME OVER!

[Kise]

pablito is becoming a good lynch candidate.

[AndyTony]

I'm not sure if that's an entirely fair statement - - he's sometimes all over the place, but he's active, trying to be proactive, and isn't tunnelling.

It would be nice if he were more concrete and

productive

, but a lynch candidate? I don't see that just yet.

**be back later tonight, all!

[Kise]

Well with 3 other people's votes on khamisa, I don't think I'm tunneling. But hey, I was just keeping my options open to prevent anyone from saying I was tunneling.

[Alduskkel]

@ODDin -
No worries, your points are important to me and I'll address those, as well as any Kham doesn't answer by the time I get back (you repeated my questions to her and I'm hoping she'll answer you!)

Wait, why do you want Khamisa to answer questions directed at you, even if they're also directed at her?

[MadCrawdad]

@ODDin

I saw your post requesting thoughts on other players, and don't want to necessarily give much this point.

Why didn't you want to say more on the other players? Do you not find anything worth mentioning about their opinion that might help the town?

If I've got an opinion about somebody's opinion I'll say something.

Also, @town: do you not find hohum not answering questions directed at him (which could, depending on answer, form quite solid evidence against him) scummy?

It ain't pro-town

During the discussion with AT, while I mostly agree with d3x, he (d3x) seems to be very angry for some reason. Reading his post 1090, I felt like "where the hell did that come from?" He was all cool and calm, and suddenly he's completely pissed at AT, though I didn't see anything in AT's words to get that pissed about. AT's note on using the word "inference" seemed like mostly a joke to me, not condescending and certainly not something to get wound up over.

I disagree with your assessment of d3x in that I'm not seeing the anger. I see him clarifying things when AT tries to flip any scum accusations back on him. If folks haven't noticed, if anyone even looks at AT cross-eyed he hits them with a scum label.

2) I was, indeed, quite frustrated with a few players. I was frustrated and annoyed by hohum not answering my questions, and I was frustrated and annoyed by you "not being arsed" to play normally. Maybe I'm taking stuff too personally, but yeah, I'm annoyed by people not paying attention, not playing the game and thus ruining the fun for others. I'm in this for the fun. When others ruin my fun, I get frustrated.
D1, with lots of stalling and tons of replacements hardly helped. After waiting for replacements for so long, seeing someone finally replace in and then not actually paying attention and not giving a damn about the game is annoying.
So that's why I was pissed and frustrated.

As you asked for my opinions on other's opinions, and AT asked for my opinion on Pablito's post, now that you've answered, here it is. I agree with Pablito that studying language can be useful. As far as any odd underlying anger in ODDin's posts I don't really see it there. I see some frustration, but that makes sense to me. The lurking and frequent replacements are making the game frustrating. Whether ODDin's frustration is genuine I can't say, however, it doesn't seem out of place in Pablito's example.

[hohum]

\o/ posting to avoid a prod.

KTHNXBAI

[Alduskkel]

Mod: I'd like to request a forced replacement of hohum, who, in his own words, said:

I refuse to participate.

[MadCrawdad]

@lobster

Here's your earlier D2 post where you give your reasons for voting Khamisa. Apparently Ceph's thoughts played a big role in your decision.

So what would you summarize the case as being? She is no longer V/LA, are you still so comfortable with her wagon moving along so briskly with her being inactive?

Khamisa was pretty absent most of Day One, but when she did appear, she tended to side with Cephrir to the point where it seemed like buddying.

Cephrir made some pretty adamant points assuring the town that they were not scum partners and Khamisa was mafia. Since he's flipped town I'm inclined to believe him. That in addition with her almost constant V/LA is why I'm voting Khamisa right now.

Explain why you're voting AndyTony.

Here's a post from late in D1. Yeah, old shit, I know... Here you ponder that Kham and Ceph may be scum buddies, but eventually say 'I do not see Khamisa anywhere near as scum-like as I do Cephrir.

Ceph also makes a lot of comments paraphrased to: "Well, it's either Khamisa or me." If they are both scum, then he's trying to set up an alternative lynch and hope the town goes for it. If we lynched Khamisa and she turned up scum, he would use that as his defense Day Two.

I do not see Khamisa anywhere near as scum-like as I do Cephrir.

As far as I can tell, Cephrir is at 4 votes, so I will

Vote: Cephrir

. I think this will be the most informative lynch for the day.

It's weird that if you don't think she smells strongly of scum toward the end of D1, that you'd look only at her on D2. Would you say that your reason for voting Khamisa is based more on her own behavior, or more on Ceph's statements?

[Crazy]

Mod: I'd like to request a forced replacement of hohum, who, in his own words, said:

I refuse to participate.

I don't want to involve myself too much into game relevant discussion, so I'll just say no, I don't think hohum's behavior warrants a forced replacement at this time.

[Kdub]

Pablito:
While Khamisa has been my main suspect, I also indicated suspicion of Alduskkel, and gave my opinions on the MC-AT debate. To say that I have "never bothered to let yourself look at anyone else in depth" is a stretch. Yes, I have looked at Khamisa more closely than others (don't you do the same for players you find most suspicious?), but I do not feel that I have focused on her to the exclusion of all other potential suspects as you seem to imply.

Now that I look back my posts so far today, I'm really not seeing your problem here. In post 852, I give my reasons for suspecting Khamisa since lobstermania asked. After that, the majority of my posts actually contain as much, if not more content, about the AT-MC-Aldus argument than about her. Trying to be as objective as I can here, I really feel that there are other players (hohum for example) who have been more "focused" on a single target than I have been. You may disagree, but I am pointing out what I see and I don't know why you are accusing me specifically of being too focused.

KDub, you came right out of the gate with Khamisa, and I still don't like that wagon. I blame you for the focus on Khamisa taking up the entire day. I'd blame hohum bringing up focus on AndyTony, but at least that was productive.

The AT discussion was only productive because AT actually responded and defended himself...

Khamisa:
Can you please give some opinions on the other players? I asked a while ago, and you haven't answered. If you are town, then share your views and contribute instead of just claiming that you aren't lurking.

lobstermania:
Can you explain your previous post to hohum a bit more? I didn't like the way it came out, as I mentioned earlier. It almost seems like a bit of a slip-up, saying that hohum is offering "other choices to mis-lynch with" as if you have knowledge that AndyTony is town.

[hohum]

I'll start posting again when this lurker lynching business stops.

[lobstermania]

MadCrawdad: What you bring up in your 1183 post is exactly why I took my time to vote Khamisa today. When I came into the game at the end of Day One I was suspicious of Cephrir and Khamisa. It seemed as though there was a good chance they were scum partners due to their awkward interactions. However, we now know Cephrir is town, which threw a wrench in my theory. But based on Khamisa's comments and actions alone, I feel like they are justifiable of a vote.
I'm not sure I understand what your question is, so hopefully this explanation helps.

Kdub: My comment to hohum was pure frustration. If it were to come down to believing hohum or believing AndyTony, I would believe AT. I'm unimpressed with hohum's play the entire game, confused with his AtE encouraging people to "mis-vote" him, and disappointed in both is lack of interest and ability to commit to this game.

[d3x]

Sorry for disappearing for a few days, real life engagements. I'll be catching up in the next day or so. Immediate questions...

@hohum- You say you're going to start posting again once the lurker lynch business stops. Do you find no merit what-so-ever in the Khamisa lynch? I'm assuming that you still find AT to be the day's best lynch. Can you shed some light as to why his lynch is stronger than Khamisa's?

the lurker wagons are being driven by scum.

Aside from At, which players driving the wagons do you think are Scum?

[MadCrawdad]

MadCrawdad: What you bring up in your 1183 post is exactly why I took my time to vote Khamisa today. When I came into the game at the end of Day One I was suspicious of Cephrir and Khamisa. It seemed as though there was a good chance they were scum partners due to their awkward interactions. However, we now know Cephrir is town, which threw a wrench in my theory. But based on Khamisa's comments and actions alone, I feel like they are justifiable of a vote.
I'm not sure I understand what your question is, so hopefully this explanation helps.

You say that you took your time to vote Khamisa as if to imply that you were being careful, but I'm not necessarily seeing that. To me it looks as if you were just waiting for her to show so that you could cast a vote. Here (early D2) you urge caution with regard to Khamisa:

I don't think we should immediately jump on Khamisa. Most of the reasoning, as far as I thought, was that she was scum buddies with Cephrir....I think after a mislynch I'm going to re-evaluate her case before I place a vote.

I don't think voting for someone being an active lurker when they are mod-confirmed V/LA is a good plan. If you feel Khamisa is scum due to active lurking, why don't you take this time while khamisa is gone to analyze the rest of her playstyle and build a case, or at least some questions for her to answer when she gets back?

I'd still like to hear her response/opinion to the lynch and the night actions before I vote for her.

But here you toss your vote seemingly based only on D1 behavior. If this is your reason for voting, why even bother waiting? It's not like you were looking at other candidates for your vote, and you didn't ask any questions of Khamisa.

Whoever mentioned that we look for relationships with Cephrir: IMO, that seems pointless: he's town, so what would any relationships mean?

It was Cephrir who mentioned several times he though you seemed to be buddying up with him on Day One. If you were scum, it be smart to try to align yourself with a townie, especially if he's going to get lynched a flip town.
At this point I feel confident in typing:

Vote: Khamisa

As you were the one urging caution with regard to voting Khamisa on D2, it didn't seem to take much on D2 (other than time) for her to get your vote. What would you say was the tipping point that pushed her from your cautious stage to being worthy of receiving your vote?

And a few final questions about the following post (also listed above):

I don't think we should immediately jump on Khamisa. Most of the reasoning, as far as I thought, was that she was scum buddies with Cephrir....I think after a mislynch I'm going to re-evaluate her case before I place a vote.

Apparently Ceph flipping town threw you enough to make you take a step back with regard to voting Khamisa, but later, Ceph flipping town helped move you forward with a vote, as now you claim to believe Ceph's comments with regard to Khamisa. So which is it, really? When and why did you start 'believing' Ceph?

[AndyTony]

ODDin -
I took a look at 1045 and 991
- - - It seems the sentiment of "AT, having protown reasons/answers for why you do things don't clear up inconsistencies" whereas what I'm clarifying is - they are NOT inconsistencies.
I'm finding it a little close minded to have multiple people in this game tell me "Just because you have an answer to a question, and just because it fits, doesn't mean we believe it"
Do you understand that people are therein

choosing

to look at me as scum because it suits suspicions better?

**Evidence shouldn't be something one needs to warp perception on - - it shouldn't be something one needs to accept (suspicions) by ignoring something else (pro-town responses)**

All of my actions have pro town reasoning and explanations - - there's no getting around that nor is there lynching that. To be FAIR - yes, you and the others are right - you can all choose to assume the state of my mind, ignore my responses, and look at me as scum because it's

easier to call me a liar (in the face of explained, good logic) than to scumhunt and find someone with more concrete/tangable evidence

Let's be honest - the only way someone can continue to call anything I've done an inconsistency or scummy is to ignore my protown explanations. I have been nothing but forward in this game, open, and willing to explain. Zero mystery - - I've been passionate in what I believe in and haven't been afraid to butt heads.

To respond to your 991 post where you vote Al.

I voted him as well and am still weary of him (I first voted him because I thought him to be opportunistic and uncharactersitic between D1 and D2, and he's being way too flip floppy today for my liking).

You state that I'm giving MCD way too much credit for any wagon on me and I have to disagree.

Think of the people who followed it.

We have hohum - who has done ZERO work D2, been ignorant and anti-town, and opened up the day with a grudge on me from D1 - - he was looking for any reason to vote me, and MCD's questions came along, hohum voted it like it was a case (and not an inquiry) and demanded (with more ignorance) more votes for a LYNCH

Pause. Nobody finds it odd that this anti-town player that also believes in policy lynches (hurting town) wanted a quicklycnh so early on D2? Right after a mislynch? Seems a little rushy - sounds like someone was scared.

Continueing.... - - hohum hops on mindlessly, and Al opportunistically joins. It's at this time that NOBODY has a case on me and in essence, not even the person who technically started it. You see, there never WAS a case on me - there was a series of questions that MCD felt needed my attention (...again) - - and hohum simply voted it and demanded others to mindlessly join in - - and they did! - - - not a single person had something fresh and new to add, they all used material (old, useless material that is weak for evidence because one would have to ignore valid explanations) that MCD presented.

Hence I gave him the most credit for starting this thing - though in practical regards, hohum's mindless, anti-town, suspiciously rushed and poorly motivated attack on me does indeed put it into motion.
===============================================

hohum wanting to

leave this game

because we're lynching Khamisa makes me even more suspicious of the two.

I am confident based on Kham's ACTIVE PLAY (read that again hohum, her play when ACTIVE) that she has been TRYING (not just "happening" to, not her style, not a choice) trying to be under the radar - avoid confrontation - please the town.
===============================================
So to conclude - you're more than entitled to believe what you would like to. Just know that there's better evidence out there that doesn't require you to ignore

valid

. pro town explanations

and as for the MCD getting credit for the wagon thing - - at this point in the game, hohum has won my regard for scummiest between him and Al - but I prefer a Kham lynch.

I'd like to see Kham's go through, and then see if hohum is around D3 so we can have a chat about why he so passionately didn't want her lynched, and wanted a quicklynch so early in the day (irresponsibly and opportunistically).
===============================================

@Al,
What?
I was saying that I'd be back to respond to ODDin, and that I hoped Kham would have responded to his (my - before he repeated them for her benefit) concerns and questions. I'm just saying I'm looking forward to at least hearing from her - there's no V/LA and I'm seeing no game play from her.

She has NO interrogations? Suspicions? Inquiries? Comments on things that make her uneasy that haven't already been made?

I think it's because she's not interested in those things (even though it's WHY we play mafia) - - I think she hasn't had anything like that come up for her because she's been too busy trying to stay in the shadows and go with the flow. Her lack of those thins is additional evidence to that sentimentality.

[ODDin]

You're slightly contradicting yourself there. You were accusing MCD of pushing a wagon against you and tunneling on you. However, he didn't vote you, and hohum didn't vote because of him too. So, I think it's unfair to accuse him of leading a wagon against you and causing people to vote for you - it wasn't because of him. I think it's fairly clear at this point that most of the people in this game DO NOT find MCD's case on you serious enough to warrant a lynch - at least not at this point, as there are far better suspects.
Thus I find it really strange you continue to be so defensive and practically throw accusations at anyone who even dares to mention the possibility you might be scum.

Also, you failed to answer the part of post 991 which I really wanted you to answer, which is its beginning:

I have encountered:

1. omgus behavior (with Pitstop briefly. I didn't vote or FoS her for it, I made note of it)

2. OMGUS (the act of omgus - which I've defined more than once and have been wrongfully accused of)

MCD seems to be confusing them with eachother and calling it a discrepency.

---
I introduced the Pitstop "omgus behavior" as just that.

I later referred to it as "omgus behavior".

When MCD asked about it, I also called it "omgus behavior".

---

You should have realised that this is not a distinction most people make. I'm feeling that no one even understood you were making a difference between the two up until this quote. AFAIK, it's not standard to differentiate between these two. You really should've brought this up earlier - pretty much the moment the case was brought up against you.
It almost feels like you wanted MCD to catch you on that, only to explain how wrong he was and how right you actually were.
I doubt that's the truth, but still, this is some scum points to you.

And to clarify my standing on you at this moment:
1) I DO NOT find you repeating your case on ceph scummy.
2) I feel the inconsistencies in your words mentioned by MCD were sufficiently explained by you and clarified quite enough. I DO NOT find these things suspicious. (However, I don't think that finding these issues to be suspicious is suspicious either. That is, while I myself don't agree with these points in the case against you, I don't think it's absurd for others to follow these points, and I do think that a town player could agree with these points - thus, I don't think accusing you based on this points to be a scum-tell.)
3) I DO find you instructing Kise suspicious, and don't find your explanation on this issue satisfying.
4) I DO find you being very defensive and accusing back anyone who has brought up any points against you (hohum, MCD, Al, d3x) somewhat suspicious. This includes painting MCD as more aggressive and more responsible of the wagon against you than he actually is.
5) The point on the OMGUS issue quoted above - pending clarification.

[AndyTony]

And to clarify my standing on you at this moment:
1) I DO NOT find you repeating your case on ceph scummy.
2) I feel the inconsistencies in your words mentioned by MCD were sufficiently explained by you and clarified quite enough. I DO NOT find these things suspicious. (However, I don't think that finding these issues to be suspicious is suspicious either. That is, while I myself don't agree with these points in the case against you, I don't think it's absurd for others to follow these points, and I do think that a town player could agree with these points - thus, I don't think accusing you based on this points to be a scum-tell.)
3) I DO find you instructing Kise suspicious, and don't find your explanation on this issue satisfying.
4) I DO find you being very defensive and accusing back anyone who has brought up any points against you (hohum, MCD, Al, d3x) somewhat suspicious. This includes painting MCD as more aggressive and more responsible of the wagon against you than he actually is.
5) The point on the OMGUS issue quoted above - pending clarification.

Better said - - I feel MCD is most responsible for the entire event. The followers that fueled it and kept it alive (like hohum) are at fault no doubt, but I felt that saving further persuit of these things for D2 was a distraction - - if he wasn't satisfied D1, I would have prefferred him reapproaching it all then.

But as I've come to regard it presently - hohum threw fire on the ordeal.

As for the last couple of points.

The omgus behavior vs. OMGUS? = = simply put, I didn't know it would be an issue later on. The definitions of the individual concepts hold true for me and I never contradicted them as you saw, but as far as making it clear? We never know what will be miniscule and what will be an issue on a mafiascum board. It was just a shame it took so long and so much of everyone's time to be on the same page.

"turning on everyone that votes me" = = When one feels they're being attacked with an injustice, it's natural to view the attackers as malicious. I always tried to be fair and open minded - but it would have been narrow minded and stupid for me to NOT

consider

as I did, that scum could have been looking for an easy wagon. (considering we have two opportunistic players - hohum [and we know how he's acting], and Al [who's been flip flopping too much for comfort]). I don't make concrete statements that they are or are not scum, but suspicious? I'm entitled to suspect, and I've been responsible in knowing what was fair/unfair to persue in other poeple.

All in all - I'm settled on Khamisa. Ultimately it's not a person that voted me.

Instructing Kise? = = That's really a matter of opinion. My explanation is fair and informative, and the best I can do is offer links to completed games where I indeed allowed myself to play like an idiot and mislynch. I've cost the town more than once for that and am to this day a believer that a new player always runs the risk of looking scummy when trying to "make up for lost time" so to speak. Kise was getting dangerously close to that, and I like my evidence to be substantial and not circumstantial. That's the best I can explain it really, up to you on taking it or leaving it.

But yeah - that's about the extent of it. I think I addressed what you mentioned now.
===============================================

@Khamisa
- I'm sold on thinking your scum based on how you used your time when you were active on D1. Your meta will show that you at the very least try to compensate for lost time (V/LA's) with substantial and sometimes original content (even when brief). It's hard to believe that in this game that demands activity, investigation, thoughts, questions, and suspicions, that you have had none of your own. You haven't had any passion in trying to figure something out or make something clear, and in doing that, you have been avoiding confrontation (which I feel scum would naturally want to do). It's one thing to be out of the spotlight, so to speak, but it is another to be hiding back stage.

Your D1 thoughts and decisions weren't your own, and even when they weren't your own, you were on the fence.

You believed certain people were innocent and allowed them to be lynched?

What made you think they were innocent?
Did you have suspicions elsewhere?
Why did you not mention those suspicions?
If you had no suspicions elsewhere, why were you not sold on the D1 candidates?
Why did you have no investigations for anyone of interest D1/D2? Or even new questions for that matter? What did the people of interest say/answer that convinced you they weren't scum and how did that make you feel about people trying to lynch them? Why not ask the LYNCHERS questions if you indeed thought they were accidentally/intentionally lynching town?
Forget questions, then - why not any comments or opinions that would help forward anything?

Have you avoided all of the above because it would require you to have a concrete stance on something? Because you would be committed to something and therein have the responsibility attached to you?

What are your responses to all of the above, Khamisa?

If you have no response to it, and in addition have none of those things for today...

Town, you can surely see why I feel her activity has been playing it safe and scummy.

In addition to that: I'll be very interested to see the outcome. We've had enough people for and against it that it will also shed interesting lights on relationships (particularily hohum, who passionately wants her alive)

Which begs the NEXT great question.

hohum - what makes you think khamisa is innocent? (in regards to her ACTIVITY) what has she done that made you SO sure, that made you SO mad and passionate, that you would quit the game and ruin our fun?

I think it's worth all the town knowing if it's that important, is it not? hm.

[ODDin]

the best I can do is offer links to completed games where I indeed allowed myself to play like an idiot and mislynch. I've cost the town more than once for that and am to this day a believer that a new player always runs the risk of looking scummy when trying to "make up for lost time" so to speak.

Provide these links please (and point out where exactly in said game your actions were similar to the ones discussed).

[AndyTony]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

His name was Mixologist.

I didn't have concrete evidence, and when his replacement (Sotty7) came into the game, I was ignorant, tunnelling, relentless, narrow minded, and it resulted in the town almost losing.

I pulled it together at the end and we won, but it's haunted my play since in my last couple of games (I have an alt)

Sotty came in - over compensated in her "here's my take of everyone in the game" analysis - and I regarded it as an attempt to seem like some pro-town leader etc.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

This one should make it clear why I hate tunnelling and ignorance.

I was the detective, and I played a damn good game until I was fed to scum. The wagon was GENUINE BULLSHIT (proved ultimately to be led by scum and conducted very much how MCD and hohum approahced me today) and my only crime was activity and "seeming to try and be town leader"
===

Link one- example of me being on the persecuting end of the tunnelling and prejudice

Link two- me on the other end, getting hell for the nature of my activity.

Kise was coming in strong, and I to this day don't trust myself to fully banish prejudice to newcomers that compensate for lost time with overly pro town posts and "observations" that make it seem like the're trying to be town leaders or something, (I don't know, it's jeuvenile)
=====================================================

Have a fun read, there's a lot in the first one - - - I promise I'll make it easier for you and post spec. pages on it to save you the headache.

That taken care of - - - what are your thoughts on my recent posts and feelings toward Khamisa?

[AndyTony]

Link 1 - - about page 14ish should help you - the replacement came the next day and 14 is where things are tangable and you can see the build.

Link 2 - wasn't alive long, gone early, shouldn't be a hard read

[Khamisa]

ODDin - OK, I see what you mean. I may have just done what you said and just brought it back into attention again. Not exactly full of worth, but I don't see it as scummy.
Also, I feel I did decently in presenting the meta case for Cephrir, but I guess I didn't push it. I think the problem was that people focused more on the fact that I had created this huge meta with my playstyle instead of actually looking at the meta.

Kdub - I promise to post opinions. Don't let me forget this!

AT - I can agree with you that this game does stray from my meta. However, by straying from my meta it does also stray away from the places I was scum as well as town. Don't you think that my playstyle appears to be much more based on how interested I'm in in the game rather than role?

For example, I believe you mentioned Jungle Republic: a scum example of me. Do you feel that the play of mine in that game and the play in this one are similar?

[Khamisa]

EBWOP: Also, hohum isn't really playing in the spirit of the game. I believe you can actually play, so if you believe so against my lynch, then do something about it.

There's an opinion for you, Kdub. =D

[AndyTony]

@Khamisa
- Read my posts on you again, I'm primarily regarding your D1 and D2 gameplay.

And now that you point out Jungle Republic - Yes, it was a mafia meta for you.

You played the same there as you are here. (Why would you mention it as an example if it only hurts you?)

In addition to the above question, you've seen my listed concerns and inquireies.
===============================================

[Alduskkel]

Can we cut back down on the walls of text? Thanks.

Al [who's been flip flopping too much for comfort]

Well considering what happens when I

don't

flip flop I'd say I'm justified in my actions.

To me Khamisa just seems like a very bored Townie (not saying she's vanilla, just hate saying "pro-Town player") who just doesn't feel like contributing much. I'd argue that if she were scum she'd be thrashing or something. She doesn't react to pressure like you'd expect scum to.

AndyTony: Could you give more details on the Jungle Republic game and how scum-Khamisa's play there is similar to her play in this game??

Khamisa: Do you think the Jungle Republic game even fits your play style in this game?

[AndyTony]

@Al
- Not thrashing or kicking up a fuss? Granted she's not at L-1 behavior, but it's not a mandatory characteristic.

In Jungle Republic, she needed constant prodding, and when active, sat on the fence, under the radar, and was trying not to have confrontation anywhere. She would always postpone (saying answers and responses would come later etc).

My post before the link posts I made - - give a gander at the part addressed to Kham and tell me what you think.