Webcomic Wars Mafia: D7- Be Thankful I'm Not The Author

[Tzeentch]

@Tzee - We did a mass NAME and COMIC claim. Those who fully claimed were about to get lynched at one point.

Fair enough.

I'm Grace Sciuridae, from El Goonish Shive.

[Vino]

Hyperlink to comic requested.

[Tzeentch]

www.egscomics.com

[Fishythefish]

Percy you touch on some of the issues that I am having with Fishy right now. His whole reaction to you just doesn't feel right to me. He is willing to wait and see on you until he comes up with a theory about their being only one scum. I'm not sure how the two interrelate honestly and his vote change coming so soon after I called him out on it doesn't sit right with me.

To explain my change of stance more fully; before, I was kind of tunnelling on scum who weren't in Percy's scumgroup. I was sure they existed, and the Percy bandwagon looked bad- particularly Sajin and SC. I thought that there were very likely scum on there- and I still think that's very likely if there are multiple scumgroups. The single-scum theory is not the only thing behind my shift, but that thought together with a review of Korlash convinced me that Percy is more certain scum than any of his voters.

If you don't understand how my "wait and see" attitude interrelates with there being multiscum, you clearly don't understand why I wanted to wait and see- since the two cannot be seperated. In which case, I'm very suspicious of your post which said it "made your skin crawl", and the above post. Why do you criticise an opinion if you don't understand the reasons given for it? This smacks of scum leaping on an opportunity to criticise and potentially link me to Percy.

FoS: Sotty7

I wanted (and almost want) to wait and see about Percy because his claim is, under certain circumstances, testable. In particular, if there are multiple scumgroups, all the scumgroups Percy isn't in have an incentive to shoot whoever he claims to be hiding behind. If he is fake, he will survive when his townie hidee dies, and be outed as scum. If he is real, he will die. If there is only one scumgroup, and Percy is in it, they won't shoot Percy's hidee, and so there is no point waiting.

If people don't want to lynch Rofl, my second choice is Fishy. I don't like how he's attempting to pin the "erasing" to a group when we honestly don't know if they are the ones who do it (the flavor for Korlash's kill is with the animals, Rofl claims electrocution).

I'm not sure I understand this post. I didn't try to pin anything on anyone. I put forward a theory to suggest it's possible there is only one scumgroup. How does that make me likely scum?

[Riceballtail]

Well, a hitman would be able to kill through RB/Doc, but has to perform the kill for the team. So I don't understand how you can think a mafia would have two kills a night.

[Tarhalindur]

Random Mafia 3 and Medieval Mafia should be extremely instructive here (I consider them my two best games, period, and have been trying to use that particular playstyle more). They should also be fine examples of hinting that reasoning exists for my actions but is being withheld as town (see especially my comments on dahill1 in Random)

In Random 3, I noted two posts where you did what you described. Once was after someone asked you about a breadcrumb, and once when someone asked you for full details on an investigation.
In Medieval Mafia, you asked for a massclaim and said you would elaborate.
If there were others, please show them to me.

This is not the same as what you're doing in this game - saying particular players are town without giving reasons, and pushing for

specific

claims without giving reasons.

Mafia 67 is also related (asking for opinions on a player without explaining why).

Besides, you're missing the pattern - when revealing the reasoning to my question would weaken the utility of the question itself, I will note as such and promise to explain once the question is answered.

In this case, that means pushing for claims without immediately explaining why I want those claims, and considering specific players town without explaining why.

I've also spotted a contradiction. This is what you said about the MoS claim yesterday:

b) Santos/MoS (claiming vanilla as nonlead doesn't fit, which is why I tried to force MoS to claim before reading the thread).

This was the same post you said that MoS and Head_Honcho are "semiconfirmed" town.
Now you're not only saying that MoS and Head_Honcho

are

town, but also:

- As for why to ask for a MoS claim: I won't reveal fully just yet (since there's a chance my plan will still work, albeit a small one), but it's for exactly the same reason that a player was asked to claim in one of the games I linked above.

Now you want a claim, for different reasons? You want him to claim, even though he's town? Something doesn't add up.

Should I attribute this post to ignorance or malice? The former says you need to reread the game, the latter says you're scum.

In case you didn't notice, Percy, the original theory I was working on (the one that said that MoS was likely scum) was disproved by Kise's death reveal. There is a reason for the new theory, but revealing it before a full massclaim is done would be counterproductive.

Likewise, why are you assuming that I have to think a player is scum to ask for a claim? I'll ask for a claim from a player at L-2 (L-1 in games with less than 10 players) regardless of my opinion on whether the player is scum; the reasoning here is not so different, and in fact argues for forcing a claim from MoS regardless of how many votes he's at and my opinion of his wagon. I will not elaborate at this time - the effectiveness of this ploy depends on MoS not figuring out what's going on.

(Frankly, the fact that you haven't figured out the reason I'm pushing for a MoS claim is good evidence that there is some upshot to a MoS claim. There's also no downside, and if you haven't figured out why this is the case then I feel rather sorry for you.)

I will explain why MoS needs to claim once he's fullclaimed. I will explain why I currently consider MoS and Head_Honcho (particularly the latter) softcleared once massclaim is done.

Head_Honcho has been pinging my scumdar from early on in this game. I certainly haven't forgotten about all the things I've posted about him (just do an ISO on me if you're curious), but your attitude towards him has certainly given him good cover against any investigation I might want to do.

I'm content to wait for explanations. You say you have reasons, and I'll give you the benefit of the doubt - for the moment. I also enjoyed the article you linked.

I've already established that this kind of play is part of your scummeta - even if it is (arguably) part of your townmeta as well. I just don't want to see the town be led around by the nose by one player just because he keeps insisting that we trust him.

"Insisting that you trust me"? I see no such action - I'm stating that 1) there *is* a reason for some of my requests, 2) that my refusal to reveal them at this time is because I think revealing them now will harm the town, and 3) promising that I will reveal those reasons once revealing them will no longer harm the town, which will occur after certain conditions are met.

That's almost EXACTLY how I acted towards dahill1 in Random 3 (made it clear there was a reason for my actions but not what that reason was, knowing that it would be revealed at a specific point - namely, when I died).

Moreover, take a look at this post from Random 3:

Tar was the first person to mention sk not sure what post but way back somewhere. I have been suspicious of Tar for quite some time but if you guys want to go ahead and think my ideas are rubbish then go for it. I am only trying to help town win here. Pitty you all seem so sure of Tar having a squeaky clean image.

Your reaction here is looking increasingly similar to how TVOD-scum reacted to my play in Random 3, as is hasdgfas's. I doubt that's a coincidence.

Moreover, I notice that I forgot to remove my vote on roflcopter in my last post. Since you're claimed power, I'll leave you be for now (want a massclaim before I make my final decision about whether to believe your claim).

Unvote

Vote: hasdgfas

(currently second on my suspect list, and SensFan is being replaced)

[Fishythefish]

Well, a hitman would be able to kill through RB/Doc, but has to perform the kill for the team. So I don't understand how you can think a mafia would have two kills a night.

I was under the impression that a hitman's kill could be seperate from the main mafia kill; if this never happens, then clearly we have another scumgroup/SK.

I will explain why MoS needs to claim once he's fullclaimed. I will explain why I currently consider MoS and Head_Honcho (particularly the latter) softcleared once massclaim is done.

I agree that MoS needs to claim. I disagree about the softclears.

@mod

MoS hasn't posted in 3 weeks. Please replace? Also, is there a deadline coming up? By my count it would be this Friday. Thanks!

[Percy]

Besides, you're missing the pattern - when revealing the reasoning to my question would weaken the utility of the question itself, I will note as such and promise to explain once the question is answered.

Yes, and that is a pattern that is consistent across both your town

and

your scumgames.

Should I attribute this post to ignorance or malice? The former says you need to reread the game, the latter says you're scum.

Ah, proof by intimidation! And then you back it up with some half-baked metaquote to try and scare me into silence.

The fact is, if you read my post, what I'm pointing out is this:

Tar: MoS should claim.
Tar: My theory doesn't work, I wanted MoS to claim to help confirm my theory.
Tar: MoS is probably town.
Tar: I want MoS to claim (but I won't say why, I have a plan).

I had thought that the first three sentences cancelled out the need for the fourth, but apparently not. The fourth also came out of nowhere - I honestly thought that when you gave your reason for wanting a claim and said he was probtown, the matter was settled. Your post that I quoted looks like you forgot why you wanted the claim in the first place.

Here's the ISO on MoS. What is there in these four posts, only one of which contains any content at all, that makes him worthy of town status? I can't see it.

Likewise, why are you assuming that I have to think a player is scum to ask for a claim? I'll ask for a claim from a player at L-2 (L-1 in games with less than 10 players) regardless of my opinion on whether the player is scum; the reasoning here is not so different, and in fact argues for forcing a claim from MoS regardless of how many votes he's at and my opinion of his wagon. I will not elaborate at this time - the effectiveness of this ploy depends on MoS not figuring out what's going on.

I wasn't assuming the first sentence - that's why I was confused. The

only

time I will call for a claim is L-2 (I agree with your reasoning as to why L-2 is better than L-1, may have read that in another of your games) or if I think they're scum. Perhaps a massclaim to help the investigations along (I'm not confident enough to try and break setups to scumhunt, my Hammersmouth game being a good example).

You're saying it is a good idea for someone you consider pro-town to fullclaim their role. This is odd.

Look, I will trust you. I will back off completely and not talk about this again. However, I want to make sure that everyone is aware of how you're behaving, and make sure they hold you accountable.

I was under the impression that a hitman's kill could be seperate from the main mafia kill; if this never happens, then clearly we have another scumgroup/SK.

I've personally never seen it as such. I'm not going to say "never could it happen", but I think it's very unlikely.

Sajin: Still scummy.
Empking: Still scummy.
Fishy/Sotty7: Worth another read. Will get that done in the next day or so.





Where the hell is everyone else?

[roflcopter]

i'm on a roadtrip, will be home tomorrow, borrowing a friend's comp right now. quick scan shows nothing particularly interesting except the mention of a deadline, by which time i will be very miffed if percy hasn't been lynched.

[hasdgfas]

While I'd love to defend myself against Tar, I can't, as I have no idea why he's suspicious of me.

[Tarhalindur]

Besides, you're missing the pattern - when revealing the reasoning to my question would weaken the utility of the question itself, I will note as such and promise to explain once the question is answered.

Yes, and that is a pattern that is consistent across both your town

and

your scumgames.

Then why are you trying to argue it's a scumtell? It's a null tell, yes, but you don't lynch someone based on a null tell.

Should I attribute this post to ignorance or malice? The former says you need to reread the game, the latter says you're scum.

Ah, proof by intimidation! And then you back it up with some half-baked metaquote to try and scare me into silence.

BZZT. The intent of the above question is that I see only two explanations for your inability to understand why I'm pushing for a MoS claim: either you didn't notice something important (not necessarily a bad thing: I'm hoping MoS hasn't noticed it either) or you did notice and are willfully ignoring that reason in order to try to make me look scummier. The former is a null tell; the latter is a scumtell.

The fact is, if you read my post, what I'm pointing out is this:

Tar: MoS should claim.

Tar: My theory doesn't work, I wanted MoS to claim to help confirm my theory.

Tar: MoS is probably town.
Tar: I want MoS to claim (but I won't say why, I have a plan).

I had thought that the first three sentences cancelled out the need for the fourth, but apparently not. The fourth also came out of nowhere - I honestly thought that when you gave your reason for wanting a claim and said he was probtown, the matter was settled. Your post that I quoted looks like you forgot why you wanted the claim in the first place.

Your error lies in the struck-through sentence above. There is a different reason entirely for asking for MoS to claim.

The "plan" (actually just good play) existed from the moment I first asked MoS to claim, though I didn't act for it for a while today (in no small part due to uncertainty over whether my ploy could still work - no coincidence that I started asking again after MoS was prodded).

Here's the ISO on MoS. What is there in these four posts, only one of which contains any content at all, that makes him worthy of town status? I can't see it.

Wherever did you get the idea that it's something in *MoS's* posts that leads me to consider him town?

Likewise, why are you assuming that I have to think a player is scum to ask for a claim? I'll ask for a claim from a player at L-2 (L-1 in games with less than 10 players) regardless of my opinion on whether the player is scum; the reasoning here is not so different, and in fact argues for forcing a claim from MoS regardless of how many votes he's at and my opinion of his wagon. I will not elaborate at this time - the effectiveness of this ploy depends on MoS not figuring out what's going on.

I wasn't assuming the first sentence - that's why I was confused. The

only

time I will call for a claim is L-2 (I agree with your reasoning as to why L-2 is better than L-1, may have read that in another of your games) or if I think they're scum. Perhaps a massclaim to help the investigations along (I'm not confident enough to try and break setups to scumhunt, my Hammersmouth game being a good example).

You're saying it is a good idea for someone you consider pro-town to fullclaim their role. This is odd.

Look, I will trust you. I will back off completely and not talk about this again. However, I want to make sure that everyone is aware of how you're behaving, and make sure they hold you accountable.

It's only odd if you don't understand what's going on.

[Tarhalindur]

While I'd love to defend myself against Tar, I can't, as I have no idea why he's suspicious of me.

- You haven't shown any initiative this game; the players you questioned were Lamont (already under pressure at time), tss (same), Serial Clergyman (same), Vino (same), and Sironigous (same). Only clear initiative I see is a WTF towards Mufasa and a quibble towards poptajo. That doesn't look like scumhunting to me,much less to the little nagging figurative voice in the back of my head. (In particular, I haven't seen you attack ANYONE who I consider remotely likely to be scum - Lamont, TSS, and poptajo flipped town before D2, Mufasa flipped town last night, Vino and SC look very likely town. Empking's the shadiest player you've attacked, and that seems to be a direct response to his poorly-stated case on Percy.)
- You've been defending Percy (and to a lesser extent SensFan and Tzeentch, in that order) since they came under fire during Day 2. Why is that? (Also note that if you flip Discontinued, I'm DAMN sure that Percy and SensFan are both Discontinued as well.)
- Little nagging voice says that your long summary post early Day 1 comes from same mindset as similar summary post in Medieval - specifically, has-scum who's fallen behind a bit.

Happy now?

[Tarhalindur]

Well, a hitman would be able to kill through RB/Doc, but has to perform the kill for the team. So I don't understand how you can think a mafia would have two kills a night.

I was under the impression that a hitman's kill could be seperate from the main mafia kill; if this never happens, then clearly we have another scumgroup/SK.

I will explain why MoS needs to claim once he's fullclaimed. I will explain why I currently consider MoS and Head_Honcho (particularly the latter) softcleared once massclaim is done.

I agree that MoS needs to claim. I disagree about the softclears.

@mod

MoS hasn't posted in 3 weeks. Please replace? Also, is there a deadline coming up? By my count it would be this Friday. Thanks!

Wait... fudge, you're right.

While I'm a bit loathe to lynch Percy because if he is town he's a fairly useful power role, deadline means we're not going to be able to test his claim more thoroughly without letting him live (rather bad idea) and I don't see my other preferred wagons (hasdgfas, SensFan) gathering the needed steam in the amount of time left before deadline.

Unvote, Vote: Percy

[hasdgfas]

While I'd love to defend myself against Tar, I can't, as I have no idea why he's suspicious of me.

- You haven't shown any initiative this game; the players you questioned were Lamont (already under pressure at time), tss (same), Serial Clergyman (same), Vino (same), and Sironigous (same). Only clear initiative I see is a WTF towards Mufasa and a quibble towards poptajo. That doesn't look like scumhunting to me,much less to the little nagging figurative voice in the back of my head. (In particular, I haven't seen you attack ANYONE who I consider remotely likely to be scum - Lamont, TSS, and poptajo flipped town before D2, Mufasa flipped town last night, Vino and SC look very likely town. Empking's the shadiest player you've attacked, and that seems to be a direct response to his poorly-stated case on Percy.)

So basically, it's scummy to be suspicious of players who are scummy? what? Next, just because you don't consider someone remotely likely to be scum doesn't mean that I don't. Plus, while Sironigous might be considered suspicious to a bunch of people, I am currently the only one voting for him, and have been for some time. How's that for initiative?

- You've been defending Percy (and to a lesser extent SensFan and Tzeentch, in that order) since they came under fire during Day 2. Why is that? (Also note that if you flip Discontinued, I'm DAMN sure that Percy and SensFan are both Discontinued as well.)

Could you please point out where, as I don't recall defending either Sens or Tzeentch, and, honestly, Percy either, as it's more been me having no idea what the case on him is.

- Little nagging voice says that your long summary post early Day 1 comes from same mindset as similar summary post in Medieval - specifically, has-scum who's fallen behind a bit.

I've said this before, I'll say it again. Do not use Medieval to meta me. It is by far the worst game I've

ever

played, and the only reason I didn't replace out during D1 when i couldn't catch up was because it was OGML-mod. Not to mention that A) I do summary posts in every game I'm in when it involves a lot of catching up, B) I seem to remember you calling me town for my summary post in Medieval due to the fact that you'd seen me do it before, and C) It was one day's worth of posts as opposed to the lots more than that in Medieval, iirc

[Vino]

It's only odd if you don't understand what's going on.

I understand what's going on. You wanted me to claim not because you intended on lynching me, but because you were the most prominent voice and pretty much anything you would have said at the time would have gone. If not for you saying "claim Vino!" I would have been in no danger of being lynched. It was a poor choice and accomplished nothing. You're right though, it's not odd. It's scummy. Since you're still continuing the directing behavior my vote stays.

[Tarhalindur]

It's only odd if you don't understand what's going on.

I understand what's going on. You wanted me to claim not because you intended on lynching me, but because you were the most prominent voice and pretty much anything you would have said at the time would have gone. If not for you saying "claim Vino!" I would have been in no danger of being lynched. It was a poor choice and accomplished nothing. You're right though, it's not odd. It's scummy. Since you're still continuing the directing behavior my vote stays.

1) You had the second most votes with less than 48 hours until deadline and had a wagon on you for most of Day 2. I hardly call that "in no danger of being lynched" (yes, Kise had more momentum than you, but had he, say, claimed an important power role it's EXTREMELY likely that you would have regained lynch momentum before deadline).

2) I've been pushing for massclaim since Mufasa claimed D2 and have made it very clear that I didn't think that outing power roles was too much of a threat after that time. Forcing a claim from you made perfect sense in that mindset (especially since there was a decent chance you would be deadline lynched). So, are you saying that my behavior for most of Day 2 was could not have come from Tar-town? And if so, why aren't you attacking me with that as your reasoning, and why didn't you mention that at the time I asked for massclaim*?

* - I don't remember you mentioning such during Day 2, at any rate.

3) I guess you're going to be voting me until one of us is dead, since I have no plans on changing my playstyle just to suit your preferences. (speaking of that, look at the links to my past games posted in the last page or two - this is pretty standard behavior from me).

Protip: *Absence* of directing behavior is a very large scumtell coming from me. (Presence of directing behavior is a nulltell, but generally means that if I'm scum then I know there's another faction.)

[Sotty7]

@ Fishy: It's more about how you went from multiple scum teams to a theory that there is only one. The night scene information has been there all this time, but only after I criticized your wait and see approach did you go back and look, coming up with your new theory and throwing a vote on Percy. It felt awkward. I don't think there is just the one team, but it's also not something I'm going to stress over either way. Right now I don't think you are linked to Percy, I am starting to believe you are both scum. Just from different groups.

[Fishythefish]

It's these quotes I really can't resolve:

Fishy's whole “wait and see” attitude with [Percy] just makes my skin crawl.

His whole reaction to you just doesn't feel right to me. He is willing to wait and see on you until he comes up with a theory about their being only one scum.

I'm not sure how the two interrelate honestly

and his vote change coming so soon after I called him out on it doesn't sit right with me.

In these two quotes, up to the bolded, you are criticising my stance on Percy. The bolded, as far as I can see, means you really weren't thinking about that stance while writing this- the "wait and see" attitude was totally about multiscum.

The bit after the bolded I'm happy with (in the sense of understanding your point). I'm aware that when I come up with theories I often convince myself of them unreasonably, at least at first, and this together with the timing could look suspicious.

[SerialClergyman]

It's late and I've got to go to bed, but I really don't see any reason to not vote Percy. The 'Percy claimed a power role' reason is so lame, especially because his power role has been carefully constructed to give the town zero information. Can't confirm anyone innocent, can't do much except keep him alive.

I can't help noticing that Tar seems to always have Percy as his 2nd or 3rd favourite scum to lynch, or he'll vote Percy then vote someone else come deadline.

Lets please lynch him and move on.

[Sotty7]

Simply put Fishy, I just don't believe you or the process you followed to arrive at your Percy vote.

[Fishythefish]

Yes. I understand that, and think it's reasonable (though wrong). That really doesn't answer my problem with you, which is:
You criticised my "wait and see" stance twice. Yet in the second post, you also say you don't understand how it relates to multiscum, which strongly suggests you haven't thought about it in the slightest. It feels very much like you were throwing out an attack without really believing in it.

[Percy]

Then why are you trying to argue it's a scumtell? It's a null tell, yes, but you don't lynch someone based on a null tell.

Then why are you trying to defend yourself, saying how what you're doing is a great asset for the town? When you claim to be in control and that know what is going on and everything will work out OK, it has (sometimes) been an enormous lie. It's worth pointing out, and your defence to my objections has alternated between aggressive and patronising.

The fact is, if you read my post, what I'm pointing out is this:

Tar: MoS should claim.

Tar: My theory doesn't work, I wanted MoS to claim to help confirm my theory.

Tar: MoS is probably town.
Tar: I want MoS to claim (but I won't say why, I have a plan).

I had thought that the first three sentences cancelled out the need for the fourth, but apparently not. The fourth also came out of nowhere - I honestly thought that when you gave your reason for wanting a claim and said he was probtown, the matter was settled. Your post that I quoted looks like you forgot why you wanted the claim in the first place.

Your error lies in the struck-through sentence above. There is a different reason entirely for asking for MoS to claim.

The "plan" (actually just good play) existed from the moment I first asked MoS to claim, though I didn't act for it for a while today (in no small part due to uncertainty over whether my ploy could still work - no coincidence that I started asking again after MoS was prodded).

Just because you strike it through doesn't mean you didn't say it. You said:

b) Santos/MoS (claiming vanilla as nonlead doesn't fit, which is why I tried to force MoS to claim before reading the thread).

Now there's another reason!

Lets please lynch him and move on.

Tomorrow, I expect both the self-vote and the pictures of your house for sale.
I live in Sydney too - perhaps I'll drop by and buy it.

Now that my lynch has been painted as "inevitable", I think that people who join my wagon now will have a great excuse as to why they lynched a townie tomorrow.

Again, I say:

Sajin's contribution to my wagon has been incredibly scummy.
Empking continues to avoid my questions, and has disappeared. What a surprise, given that this is exactly what I predicted would happen.
Don't let Tar have a free ride. Make sure you ask for his explanations and are satisfied by them.
Fishy and Sotty are having an interesting interaction here. I get scumvibes from both of them in different ways, but I'm not going to be around to feel them out.
Sotty's entrance was opportunistic, but I can see a townie do it. Fishy is more of a worry - his attitudes on D1 weren't great, and his monoscum theory doesn't stand up to sensible analysis.
MoS and Head_Honcho are on my scumdar, but that wagon's been shut down until Tar explains what he means.
SensFan needs to answer or be policy lynched.

It's times like these that I hate playing town. If you talk a lot and try to scumhunt, there's always something to pick up on and be spun into a scumtell. If, instead, you lurk like crazy and post basically nothing (Empking, Sajin, SensFan) you can avoid being lynched because the town just doesn't care.

I hate my wagon, but that's not too surprising. I think that a lot of people on my wagon won't be too surprised by my flip, even if they're town. My lynch is now about information gathering and convenience rather than actually catching scum.

I really don't think there's anything left to say.

Go town.

[Fishythefish]

Dammit. If there's one thing I'm good at, it's reading about-to-be-lynched posts, and for once I'm going to trust my instincts- I'd be amazed if Percy were scum.

unvote, vote: Sajin

. It's pretty late for this, I realise, but this is a much better lynch.

I just had a look at Sajin's iso. It's not pretty. It's also not long, and I urge everyone to do the same. I have no time right now, but later today I will spell it out. He is scummy, and when he's not scummy it's because he's lurking.

[SerialClergyman]

Zzz

Fishy, get back on the wagon or be more convincing.

Percy - I would love to play with you when you're town. I've actually really enjoyed playing with you so far but I can't see you as town, despite these appeals to emotion.

1) I'll absolutely post the pics of the sale of my place, but on a more game-related note, you'd like to see the self-vote? After declaring me the town read you're most sure of? I'll happily say I'll do it because I'm not expecting to have to go through with it. You on the other hand should be 100% expecting me to have to do it if you're town, so why would you encourage someone you thoroughly believe to be town to self-vote?
Doesn't makes sense. You're scum, that was a threat to me and a not-so-subtle reminder to everyone about the incident that a lot of people found scummy. I'm scared of neither.

2) You're being lynched because of your epic activity. What crap. There are plenty of people in plenty of games that post as prolifically if not more so than you. Tar is one of those in this game, yet it's your head on the chopping block not his, and that's because you slipped and your scumbuddy made a hash of defending you. Activity =/= Lynched, Scummy Activity = Lynched.

3) An AtE is still an AtE, even if it's a well-written one.

GET IT DONE LADS. Re-read the wall of Korlash, his defending Percy while agreeing he's scummy. Look at all the things you have to believe to write off Percy's slip. No more deadline speeches, no more switching to inactive scummyish players like Kise and now Sajin. Percy is scum, get it done.

[Tarhalindur]

Then why are you trying to argue it's a scumtell? It's a null tell, yes, but you don't lynch someone based on a null tell.

Then why are you trying to defend yourself, saying how what you're doing is a great asset for the town? When you claim to be in control and that know what is going on and everything will work out OK, it has (sometimes) been an enormous lie. It's worth pointing out, and your defence to my objections has alternated between aggressive and patronising.

Simple. Given the tone of your attack (yes, attack), you either don't know why my actions are a nulltell if not an outright towntell or you are deliberately attempting to paint my actions as anti-town when you know they aren't.

If the first is the case, then I'm going to educate you as to why my actions make sense from a town perspective - you know, so you have the chance to *realize* that your case is in error and reconsider your position.

If the second is the case, then the logical conclusion is that you're town trying to cast doubt on a strong town player with craplogic and I'm going to prove to other players that it's craplogic.

The fact is, if you read my post, what I'm pointing out is this:

Tar: MoS should claim.

Tar: My theory doesn't work, I wanted MoS to claim to help confirm my theory.

Tar: MoS is probably town.
Tar: I want MoS to claim (but I won't say why, I have a plan).

I had thought that the first three sentences cancelled out the need for the fourth, but apparently not. The fourth also came out of nowhere - I honestly thought that when you gave your reason for wanting a claim and said he was probtown, the matter was settled. Your post that I quoted looks like you forgot why you wanted the claim in the first place.

Your error lies in the struck-through sentence above. There is a different reason entirely for asking for MoS to claim.

The "plan" (actually just good play) existed from the moment I first asked MoS to claim, though I didn't act for it for a while today (in no small part due to uncertainty over whether my ploy could still work - no coincidence that I started asking again after MoS was prodded).

Just because you strike it through doesn't mean you didn't say it. You said:

b) Santos/MoS (claiming vanilla as nonlead doesn't fit, which is why I tried to force MoS to claim before reading the thread).

Now there's another reason!

Actually, that last quoted sentence has ALWAYS been the reason I was pushing for a MoS claim. Thanks a lot for bringing it up again when I was hoping it would stay hidden in the Day 2 discussions for a bit longer. (I'd forgotten I'd posted it in the thread, but what I was doing was an attempt to capitalize on the possibility that scum-MoS wasn't paying attention to Day 2 actions regardless.)

Since you just made it much less likely that MoS won't figure out what's going on (NOT happy about that), now would be a good time to explain that request for a MoS claim in full.

It's the exact same thing that happened to Kison (who replaced in for me after I had claimed day gunsmith as scum) in Battlestar Galactica mini. Here's iamausername's reasoning for pushing for a Kison claim there:

It was a cunning ruse. See, if Kison had claimed something different to what Tar had already claimed, we could pretty much assume that he is scum.

As he didn't, we didn't really learn anything useful; he could be telling the truth about his role, he could be astute enough to figure out what me and Elmo were doing and dig through Tar's posts to find the right fake claim. But there was absolutely no downside to this plan; either it works, and we catch scum, or it doesn't, and nothing changes. So, clearly it was worth a try.

The reasoning is effectively the same here.

Worst case scenario: MoS claims vanilla town... which he had already claimed, courtesy of his predecessor, so there is no downside whatsoever (since any downside to claiming had *already happened* when Santos claimed).
Best case scenario: MoS claims a role other than vanilla town. In that case, we have a direct contradiction and we lynch MoS for being a lying scumbag (unlikely, since I still think he's town, but possible).

Lets please lynch him and move on.

Tomorrow, I expect both the self-vote and the pictures of your house for sale.
I live in Sydney too - perhaps I'll drop by and buy it.

Now that my lynch has been painted as "inevitable", I think that people who join my wagon now will have a great excuse as to why they lynched a townie tomorrow.

Again, I say:

Sajin's contribution to my wagon has been incredibly scummy.
Empking continues to avoid my questions, and has disappeared. What a surprise, given that this is exactly what I predicted would happen.
Don't let Tar have a free ride. Make sure you ask for his explanations and are satisfied by them.
Fishy and Sotty are having an interesting interaction here. I get scumvibes from both of them in different ways, but I'm not going to be around to feel them out.
Sotty's entrance was opportunistic, but I can see a townie do it. Fishy is more of a worry - his attitudes on D1 weren't great, and his monoscum theory doesn't stand up to sensible analysis.
MoS and Head_Honcho are on my scumdar, but that wagon's been shut down until Tar explains what he means.
SensFan needs to answer or be policy lynched.

It's times like these that I hate playing town. If you talk a lot and try to scumhunt, there's always something to pick up on and be spun into a scumtell. If, instead, you lurk like crazy and post basically nothing (Empking, Sajin, SensFan) you can avoid being lynched because the town just doesn't care.

I hate my wagon, but that's not too surprising. I think that a lot of people on my wagon won't be too surprised by my flip, even if they're town. My lynch is now about information gathering and convenience rather than actually catching scum.

I really don't think there's anything left to say.

Go town.

Clearly it was an error in the vote count, as you can see from my inevitable death.

Thanks Trumpet, you fucked everything.

I hope for the town's sake that there is some sort of magical forbiddanlight-re-emergence or something else so the town doesn't lose.

Go town!

More than any other game I've seen you in, your play here reminds me of your play in Haruhi. (Specifically, I think you're likely scum - or possibly neutral - but that you strongly believe that there's a scum faction that you're not in out there.) I'd like to double-check this again, but search still seems to be down.

This doesn't quite feel the same as your Haruhi post above - you're giving out information for the town, for starters - but you have proven to be able to fake a "you screwed up, town" post before.

There's still players I think are more likely to be scum than you are (hasdgfas and SensFan for two, and I know I'm forgetting someone), but they don't seem to have wagons on them right now and deadline is on Friday. Unless I start seeing large wagons on those players, my vote stays.