/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[mith]

Vote Count:

11 to lynch.

BridgesAndBaloons: 9 (charter, ekiM, elvis_knits, iamausername, inHimshallibe, roflcopter, SerialClergyman, Thesp, Yosarian2)
elvis_knits: 3 (BridgesAndBaloons, Kmd4390, zu_Faul)
Claus: 1 (alexhans)
ekiM: 1 (VP Baltar)
Herodotus: 1 (populartajo)
Thesp: 1 (Herodotus)
Yosarian2: 1 (Claus)

Not Voting: 3 (Ojanen, Shabba, Xylthixlm)

[Claus]

Leaving now. Changing my vote to the biggest looking intention pile from among my cases (mith didn't allow me to proxy my vote )

unvote. Vote Ekim

See you monday!

[roflcopter]

well claus, you fall under the umbrella of another strong relational tell that i've used with great success in my mafia career, the chainsaw defense. short version is player 1 gets attacked by player 2. player 3 steps in to attack player 2 because of attacks on player 1. if either player 1 or player 3 are scum, the other is very highly likely scum as well. your attacks on elvis have been very chainsaw-y.

but i can pretend your town for a second.

ekim case: yes, definitely valid points, but ekim doesn't fit into the bridges-scum framework. his jump onto the bab wagon wasn't at all buslike.

yos case: the timing of his bab vote makes him extremely unlikely to be a bridges scumpartner, but otherwise also a solid case. i'd want to do my own investigation into yos-meta. when bridges flips scum yos will fall neatly into the all-but-confirmed town pile along with several other players.

thesp case: i disagree. i just don't find thesp scummy here in any conceivable situation, bridges scum or not.

[iamausername]

Just because you didn't actually vote doesn't mean you weren't saying you were going to. In fact, you spent most of the post building up to it and then dropped the rofl vote. Now, maybe you were indeed waiting for a claim before voting or maybe you were just hesitant about looking scummy so close to the hammer. I think that is where I am interpreting your rofl vote differently. I mean, if what you are saying is true, why spend so much time stating your intent to vote BnB? Why wouldn't you condense it down and say something like 'I support the BnB wagon, but I think we need to hear a claim first'? Seems to me like you were telegraphing your punches.

I tried reading this again, and it still doesn't make any sense. I made it very clear that I intended to vote BaB if his claim didn't give me a good reason not to, therefore you doubt that I was actually waiting for a claim? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

Also, I am curious, as a general question to people:

As scum, have you ever claimed vanilla?

I've claimed vanilla in massclaims as scum, but that's really not a comparable situation. But then, I don't think any of my scum games have comparable situations.

Of course, a better question would be "As scum, has BridgesandBaloons ever claimed vanilla?" If only search weren't disabled so I could easily find out.

I'd like to hear other peoples' interpretations of what Thesp said.

Pretty sure elvis's interpretation is right, though I can see how you misread.

Oh, I see!

Man, you already found what, 3, 4 scum? Please teach me your scumhunting techniques after the game

Just out of curiosity. Suppose I'm not scum, who would take my place in your list?

So, are you simultaneously putting down rofl's ability to find that many scum already, and then asking him to find another? I'm assuming a certain amount of sarcasm in the first half of the post, correct me if I'm wrong.

Yos2 is scummy but I recoil at the thought of lynching Yos2 on day 1.

Why?

if you aren't scum then i'm even more sure that iamausername is. he's currently holding the "if there's a 5th its this guy" spot.

So, is there any particular Claus/username scum dichotomy, or is it just a process of elimination thing?

Would like to hear @IAUN opinions on Yos, Inhim, Tajo

The last two games I played with Yos, I was town both times, he was scum in one and town in the other, and I was right about him in both instances. So, I trust my gut on him, and so far, I'm not getting a scum feel.

tajo seems pretty town. But I don't know that I've ever seen tajo as scum, so I'm not so sure I should trust my gut on that one. Still, ignoring meta concerms, I can't see anything disagreeable in his posts.

inHim is pretty dodgy, voting BaB because lots of people were talking about him is an extremely weak reason, and he definitely hasn't been making waves.

[roflcopter]

So, is there any particular Claus/username scum dichotomy, or is it just a process of elimination thing?

its a process of elimination thing. of the five who i would say most likely make up the largest possible theoretical scumteam, {bridges, kmd, claus, herod, iamausername} my read on you and your connection to bridges is the least conclusive. based on comments from kmd and from bridges i'm actually guessing that the scumteam itself is made up of four members, and if there is a fifth that person is a traitor. under the hypothetical scenario of claus not being a member of the above scumteam, you slide neatly up the ladder.

but don't worry, no amount of hypothetical situations will convince me not to lynch him with extreme prejudice when bridges flips scum.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

anddddd I'm here now.

[Yosarian2]

@Yos

B&B is probably scum and, if he is, Xyl is 100% guarenteed to be town; KMD is fairly likely to be scum, and I think Elvis is probably town; and shabba still hasn't said anything relevent.

Ok, cool! What do you think of Ikem, Thesp and Roflcopter?

Thesp's play looks fine to me. Don't really have a problem with any of his posts.

Rofl's play so far is pretty solidly within his town meta; hyperaggressive, overconfident, direct. I also agree with his suspicions, for the most part.

I..don't know who Ikem is. For a second I thought you meant inhim, but I assume you mean eikM, since you were talking about him before?

I agree with you on that case, actually. eikM joined first the B&B bandwagon with no reason, then left it for the Xyl wagon ,which is really confusing. He really hasn't said much of anything yet, while bandwagoning quite readily. I'd be in favor of running him up if he dosn't contribute more soon.

What the heck makes you think that either post 234 or post 240 were either "flippant" or "trying to brush you off"?

Well, when I ask you to comment on the big wagons you answer me with this:

I didn't comment on the Elvis/KMD stuff quite delibaratly, claus. Why do you think that's a scum move?

Isn't this dodging the question and brushing it off?

No, not at all, since your "question" I was reasponding to here was this:

He has managed not to comment on the 4 big wagon cases and all the collateral accusations

You attacked me because I hadn't commented on the wagons (which, btw, was untrue, I certanly had commented on Xyl's wagon) and I responded by mentioning that it was intentional that I didn't comment on the Elvis/Kmd fight right away, and asked you why that was scummy. That's not "dodging the question" at all.

then the right action is to not comment on the bandwagon at all, especally on day 1.

I don't agree with this AT ALL. Pro-town players, if they don't have enough info about a major event going on in the game, should at least try to ask some questions to get the info they need. So if a blatantly bullshit wagon was going on in early game, on a player you still had no read on, and getting steam, would you, as a pro-town player, just let the wagon go on?

If it's early in day 1, and I have no information, then when player X attacks player Y, and I don't have a read on either of them yet, it's often better to let player Y defend himself and see what happens. Town often gets a lot more information by letting player Y answer his own questions and defend his own actions, rather then someone else doing it for him.

In this case, when KMD answered Elvis's questions, the answers were quite interesting, don't you think? Not at all what I would have expected. And so was the back and fourth that followed, and the people that followed onto the Elvis wagon, and B&B's reaction to Elvis especally.

That series of events let me get a pretty good read on KMD, on Elvis, and on bridges, I think, as well as starting to give me an idea about who might be connected to who. If I had stepped in and just said "Elvis, I think you misunderstood what KMD said there" we would have got absolutely nothing from the whole exchange.

By any reasonable standards, I was both very active during that period, was questioning people

Well said Yos! Back up your claim by making a list of people you questioned between the start of the game and post 234. Then tell me you were reasonably "hunting scum" and "questioning people", and not "sitting on the background".

On Wednesday, within 12 hours of the game having started, I was starting to question Xyl about his behavior. I continued to question him for the rest of the day Wednesday; before the end of the day, I had questioned him in 5 seperate posts, as well as commented on a problem I saw with his play in another post.

On Thursday, I was only in the thread briefly, but I did stop in and question B&B about his post 102, which was rather scummy and odd.

On Friday, I was limited by the fact the site kept crashing and going down, but I did finally manage to post. In that post, I tried to pressure a lurker, and briefly mentioned my suspicion of Xyl. Then, in a later post, I responded to a post by Xyl and questioned him about his actions.

Considering that the "normal" standard of activity on mafiascum is something like "Make at least one post once every 72 hours or you're a lurker", I think that, by any reasonable standards, the amount of questioning, scumhunting, and playing I did during that period of time was quite good. So, no, I don't think it's fair at all to say I "wasn't questioning people" or that I was "staying in the background".

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Well I'm adverse to BaB dying right now. I'm not sure about him, I haven't got proper reads on half the players yet and there are several people coming out of V/LAs right about now.
Thesp, when do you plan to enclose your reasons for heartily endorsing the BaB wagon (now and originally)? After he's been lynched? Frankly I'm not quite understanding why this is a beneficial strategy.

So obv town. Like ridiculously towny.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

To BAB: I did give my reasoning for my vote. It was earlyish on in the Day when I voted, making the comment I felt there was a very good chance that you were scum who had been drawing a lot of attention from good Townies and bussing scum, and so I voted you. Everyone seemed to be popping up and saying something about you, or at least that was my perception as I read through to catch up.

This makes no sense. You voted me because I was scum that was "drawing a lot of attention?" How does that make me scummy? Drawing attention Day 1 is something scum don't want to do, that's why many scum lurk through day 1. At the very worst for me, this is a null tell.

The Triad of Evil
Or why Thesp, Ekim and Yos are bad kids and will get coal for Xmas.

Really good info here, I agree with Yos for sure, not sure about Thesp or Ekim, I need to look for my own sake first.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

, B&B is probably scum and, if he is, Xyl is 100% guarenteed to be town;

According to Yos, there's no such thing as bussing. Either he's forgotten all his games of mafia, or he's scum.

I'm pretty confident Yos is scum.

vote:yos

[roflcopter]

, B&B is probably scum and, if he is, Xyl is 100% guarenteed to be town;

According to Yos, there's no such thing as bussing. Either he's forgotten all his games of mafia, or he's scum.

I'm pretty confident Yos is scum.

vote:yos

why do you think repeating the same scummy point over and over again is going to make it stick? what part of this aren't you getting.

anyone else: if bridges is scum, xyl is town
bridges: STOP RIGHT THERE! XYL COULD STILL BE SCUM WITH ME!
everyone in their right mind: now why would you say that if you were anything but scum with not xyl?

and now you use the same crap to try and

validate your vote for someone else

?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

why do you think repeating the same scummy point over and over again is going to make it stick? what part of this aren't you getting.

anyone else: if bridges is scum, xyl is town
bridges: STOP RIGHT THERE! XYL COULD STILL BE SCUM WITH ME!
everyone in their right mind: now why would you say that if you were anything but scum with not xyl?

and now you use the same crap to try and

validate your vote for someone else

?

I'm sorry Rofl, but I don't have a high opinion of your play in this game right now. You are following illogical statements and totally agree with them. It's going to be hard for town to win while you're alive, because you will let scum get away with nonsensical reasonings and agree with them. That is all unfortunate, because I think you're very very misguided town (well actually you're leaning neutral to me).

What do you do when I come up town? Start tunnelvissioning another townie to death?

I'm sorry I don't mean to be offensive but when you call me posts "same crap," you kind of strike first, I guess this is mostly reactionary and frustration. Anyway, my idea is that if I'm going ot be lynched, I might as well provide town with the best possible chance of winning, so I want to urge the following to you:

Rofl:

Tomorrow, when I'm town, be less headstrong and calm down and really look at all the players. Your reads are wrong this game. Refresh and come back again.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

oh yeah, I forgot when I looked at the lurkers, I found Ekim was scum.

Scum list so far

:
Yosarian2
Ekim

Town list so far

:
Ojanen

[Yosarian2]

, B&B is probably scum and, if he is, Xyl is 100% guarenteed to be town;

According to Yos, there's no such thing as bussing. Either he's forgotten all his games of mafia, or he's scum.

I'm pretty confident Yos is scum.

vote:yos

B&B, are you reading this game at all?

Let me clarify myself here.

I could see you trying to argue against that if you were scum and xyl was town, because you don't want him to be confirmed innocent when you get lynched.

That is the only time I can see you going out of your way to argue against a "bridges and xyl probably aren't scum together" theory. You wouldn't do it if you were scum and he was scum, and I don't understand why you would do it if you were town.

Could you explain yourself here, bridges?

This is why, if you are scum, Xyl must be town. It's quite simple, and has nothing to do with his vote for you.

Also, this is why I'm voting for you. Which is why I'm having a really hard time believing you forgot about this post.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Of course, a better question would be "As scum, has BridgesandBaloons ever claimed vanilla?" If only search weren't disabled so I could easily find out.

I have not. Helpful hint, in the future, you can check my wiki for my played games. I'll link it for you


actually I won't. . . It's Worst Role Ideas mafia and I don't have it linked yet and the search function is disabled. . . THat's the only time I've been scum. The details are a little hazy, but I either fakeclaimed a power role or I didn't have to claim at all, either way I have not ever claimed vanilla as scum.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Yosarian, I'm going to turn around and ask you if you had been reading the game. Remember when I said I attack bad logic?"

Yeah, the fact that "Xyl and Bab are not partners" is bad logic. From what I understand, you

agreed

with that being bad logic, but then you VOTED me for attacking that logic?

What? Really? Tell me I'm misunderstanding you.

[Herodotus]

BTW,

@Zu_faul

and

@Herotodus

: Agree/Disagree on each of my three cases? Would you vote any of them?

I assume you mean Yos2, Thesp, and Ekim?

Ekim:
He just returned from V/LA, so I don't find the lurking scummy. The fact that he hopped on both of the biggest wagons with virtually no explanation is not pro-town. On the other hand, I would expect scum to want to provide good-looking reasons for their votes -- but I don't know how common it is for them not to.
He has plenty of questions to answer, and his next post will determine whether I would be willing to vote for him. Unless it is impressive, I would say yes.

Thesp:
I disagree about your point that he hasn't picked up new reasons to support a BaB lynch. He is now arguing that I am scum defending my scumbuddy. While this is factually incorrect, as I am town, if he is town he could reasonably suspect me -- so his argument has changed at least a little.
So far both you and Elvis have stated that my interpretation of Thesp's given reason for voting BaB is incorrect. As I don't see either of you as particularly likely scumbuddies with him, I am inclined to think I misunderstood (though I would have liked to hear from Thesp himself about that.)
I am, however, still a little wary of him because:
(a) He hasn't seemed interested in BaB posting his suspicions. Granted, BaB has been stalling, but no one else would have known he would.
(b) I'm getting an impression from his posts that he is 100% certain that BaB will turn out to be scum. I would expect this type of certainty from roflcopter, but most people accept that they may be wrong.

I haven't paid much attention to trying to figure out Yos2 today. I know that's bad. I will reread him soon.

As a substitute, I offer my thoughts on
alexhans:

HEY!!! I was going to use that for my vote!!! (and to get the game going)

I may be reading too much into this, but it looks a little scummy. He still could have used this for a vote, but he didn't. And why is he bragging about how he planned to get the game going?
Someone else may have mentioned the above already... if so, I don't remember who or on what page it was.

I don't like how he starts a conversation about the setup, then complains about that conversation.

And now he's just been saying "I'm going to post" over and over. As if he can't say anything that he hasn't spent hours and hours writing.

And while writing this post, I see another dozen posts have come up...

[BridgesAndBaloons]

. . . But if I come up scum, they are pro-town, remember, there's no such thing as bussing Day 1.

Bullshit.

Mini 628.

I was being sarcastic, because I think Rofl's reasons for not thinking Xyl is scum with me is because I attacked him, but maybe it's more in line with Yos' reasons, which are still bad, but wouldn't be mocked by this post.

[Yosarian2]

There was nothing bad about the logic, especially since Elvis just said you were "probably" not partners. In this case, I agreed with her; you probably wouldn't have done that in just that way if Xyl was your partner. But that's not really relevant in any case.

In any case, if you were actually a pro-town who thought Xyl was scum, there's no good reason for you to disagree with that statement, at all. Especially considering both you and Xyl were suspects.

Also, if you and Xyl were scum together, there is no way you would disagree with that logic. If Elvis says "Well, B&B and Xyl probably aren't scum together", and you WERE scum with Xyl, then you wouldn't have argued.; because if you get lynched, he looks town, and if he gets lynched, you look town. Either way, it would help your chances of winning. THIS IS WHY I SAID THAT IF YOU ARE SCUM, XYL IS NOT. Because of your own comments, which you WOULD NOT HAVE MADE if he was your scumbuddy. It's quite simple.

SO, yes, I'm voting you largely because the most likely explanation for you actions is that you are scum and Xyl is town, and you didn't want him to be cleared when you got lynched and flipped scum.

Also, you seem to be voting me...because you don't understand why I just said that you wouldn't say that if you were scum with Xyl, or something?

[BridgesAndBaloons]

There's something I need to say about post 149, but now is not the time. Can someone please remind me (or remind myself) to do this later, probably like 10 pages from now or more.

I think KMD is the mafia traitor. Please look at his posts in isolation. He has mentioned a scum traitor six seperate times, and one other time he specifically labled Xyl as the traitor.

Ideal play for the scum traitor is to breadcrumb scum traitor. Thus, I think KMD is scum traitor. The reason I wanted to not show this information immediately, is because I wanted to see if anyone else mentioned traitor as much as KMD did. I don't believe anyone got close.

I guess the only way to confirm this is to hunt for scum people that are not Xyl, Yos, Ekim, Me, E_k, or inHim since those are people he said is scummy. Or MAYBE he would want to but the godfather on that list? I don't hink he would. Anyway, the best way to deal with KMD is after teh godfather is dead (if one dies) then depending on who it is, look at the connection between Kmd and the player and see if my thought that he is the traitor is valid.

I normally wouldn't say this, except I'm pretty sure I'm going to die, so I might as well reveal all info I have.

[Xylthixlm]

Haven't read the last few hours post explosion but at a glance it's really weird to see all the posts look like "Blah blah blah Xyl blah blah blah Xyl blah. Blah blah blah blah Xyl blah blah."

This irrelevant observation brought to you by the zwetschenwasser school of mafia play.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

Also, you seem to be voting me...because you don't understand why I just said that you wouldn't say that if you were scum with Xyl, or something?

I'm voting you because your meta is off, your posts have a sort of unaffected tone that I've encountered when reading your scum games as opposed to the active scumhunter fearsome Yos I've seen.

Also, I think your attack of me is basically opportunistic and if there wasn't a wagon on me you wouldn't be voting me.

[Yosarian2]

If you actually think KMD is the scum traitor, B&B, then why aren't you voting him, instead of voting for me in what is clearly either a complete failure to read my posts or a pure OMGUS vote?

[Yosarian2]

Also, you seem to be voting me...because you don't understand why I just said that you wouldn't say that if you were scum with Xyl, or something?

I'm voting you because your meta is off, your posts have a sort of unaffected tone that I've encountered when reading your scum games as opposed to the active scumhunter fearsome Yos I've seen.

Also, I think your attack of me is basically opportunistic and if there wasn't a wagon on me you wouldn't be voting me.

My vote for you is because you're scum. I explained why I believe you're scum. You have completly failed to refute that. Plus you claimed vanillia, which automatically makes you a good lynch anyway.

Also, I thought you said you were voting for me because I said that if you were scum xyl was town?

[Yosarian2]

Haven't read the last few hours post explosion but at a glance it's really weird to see all the posts look like "Blah blah blah Xyl blah blah blah Xyl blah. Blah blah blah blah Xyl blah blah."

This irrelevant observation brought to you by the zwetschenwasser school of mafia play.

TL;DR. B&B voted me because I think you're not his scumbuddy, which, again, probably means he's scum and you're town. He also generally continued to act like a scum trapped in a corner while not actually responding to any of the points made against him.