Newbie 827 - Store Katana (Scum Win!)

[Messiah]

@XScorpion: Why do you feel Sergio is more deserving of a vote than oramiuri?

---

VOTE COUNT

(2) n107yuh, - XScorpion, Wysp

(2) Wysp - julienvonwolfe, Messiah
(1) NewAgeWarrior - purple princess

Not Voting: oramiuri, n107yuh, Sarcyn, NewAgeWarrior


With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch
DEADLINE: September 7, 2009 12:01 PM PST

[Wysp]

I'm gonna anwer the quick-lynch question once and for all:

Point 1--Like I said, I'm from a place which goes a lot faster at our lynches. I apologize if this makes me seem suspicious. Sadly, the forums which I play on are down for upgrades (and have been so for...two, three weeks, at least?), but once they come up, I can link to the pages for proof.

Point 2--I picked the guy who isn't playing. The one who would be the least advantage to the town. If anything, people who want to lynch players who are actually participating are the supicious ones. Sadly, I don't (like I have bemoaned many times before) have any evidence for finger-pointing at this time.

Point 3--Would a Mafian be making this much noise this early in the game? I've played Mafia before, on both sides, and I know the best way for the Mafian to win is to stay low and influence opinion, not stand out and speak up. What do I look like I'm doing?

*facepalm*

It's amazing that I'm fighting this hard this early in the game.

[NewAgeWarrior]

@ wysp
I understand wanting to get rid of lurkers due to the fact that they are the least helpful, but accedentaly lynching town is never a disired circumstance, and because people on your other website do it does not absolve you from doing in this game (i feel its very obviously a dumb move no matter what form of mafia you play). In the end, nothing happened, so its not as critial as it was (but it still puts you at the top of my radar ATM)

My train of though for claiming townie already is the fact that i don't belive it has any bearing on the game whatsoever (as i said). The only reason I won't be doing it anymore is because it simply puts too much attention on me for something so pointless.

[Wysp]

NAW--I never said they did it, it just makes sense to me, as we lack evidence. What I did say was that we typically take much less time, which tends to breed impatience--a character flaw of mine. I apologize for it.

You have a point on accidentally voting for a Townie, but really, we don't have much evidence at this stage of the game. I'm just grasping at straws.

[Tenchi]

Mod, how do you decide who gets what role? Random.org, or another method you choose?

Random. Maybe it depends on the color of your hair...

[Wysp]

*facepalm*

Wow, I feel stupid.

Okay, I just reread the rules and noticed that this site permits null votes. Ergo...

Null Vote

Rather than killing a lurker (Townie, Mafia, or whatever) or an active member, IMO it makes more sense to just not lynch.

[XScorpion]

Lurkers don't defend themselves.
Lurkers don't draw attention to themselves.
If the game was based on people voting SOLELY on whoever acts the most suspicious, the lurker will always win.
Hence I'm leaving my vote on Sergie.

[Tenchi]

I have asked

n107yuh

to replace for s3r9i032123. (A confirmation replacement)

Also,

Messiah

replaces S23181208. (Though they are the same person, I will treat it as a Day One replacement.)

[Wysp]

You have a point...If he's Mafia, he'll still be around further into the game, because A: The Town won't have mynched him because it's too busy trying to find the active members, and B: Mafia don't kill other Mafia. It's just stupid. On the other hand, if he's Townie, we have two options: The Mafia leaves him alone because he's not interesting, or they kill him to eliminate the excess. If I was Mafia, I'd kill him, but that's just me, XD. I've modded a few games before, and I cannot decribe how much I loathe lurkers.

So, my proposal is that if he's still alive in Round Three or so, we lynch him. If he's Mafia'd by then, then we know that he's innocent. Of course, that could take a while, but who really cares. Obviously this site is prone to waiting. Unless we get five people on a bandwagon, then it won't be ending anytime soon. I'll wait, since I've found an acceptable middle course (I won't be getting any Mafia, but on the other hand, I won't be killing any Townies.) Since the Townies have numerical superiority at this point in the game, it leaves us with the advantage.

*sits back*

I better get some popcorn.

[purple princess]

Princess - what do you think of his statement that he didn't expect anybody to believe his claim?

Well I guess he had to say that after S23181208 bought it up, I'm not sure what he thought he would gain from saying "I am town" maybe he thought people would leave him alone as he must obvioulsy must be town.

Also, why does not confirming not equal lurking if the game has already started?

I could compleatly understand if he had confirmed his role that not posting anything could been seen as lurking, but as I see it he hasn't confirmed so isn't really part of this game, sure he could have a scum role but how can you tell without him confirming or even posting in this game.

@ PP

i voted for S23181208, s3r9i032123 is the one who has not posted. 2 different people, both with amasingly simmilar and confusing random numerical names.

And as i mentioned above, I don't expect anybody to believe my claim (just like how you don't), and my claim is utterly useless anyway. It was more of a friendly comment to the person who voted for me.

And it's very pointless to pick on people for who the voted for in the RVS. If anything, its counter-productive. You have wysp saying he want to hammer on page 2, yet my claim and random vote (and subsequent unvote, i might add) are more scummy? I dont follow your logic.

I didn't vote for you because of that I voted for you for the "Hey look at me I am town" post, did you feel you had to say you were town as wysp voted for you?

NAW's claim doesn't seem scummy to me...it seems like a newbie mistake.

I could understand this as a newbie mistake but NAW is playing as SE in this game!

[Wysp]

You have wysp saying he want to hammer on page 2, yet my claim and random vote (and subsequent unvote, i might add) are more scummy? I dont follow your logic.

You may notice that I have, several times, bemoaned the lack of info. I was simply picking a likely target and trying to obtain information. If you are not a Mafian, then I believe you will understand.

[Messiah]

@Wysp: Day 1 no-lynches are bad for town. If we no-lynch day 1 then that's 1 less lynch we have to use on someone we think is scum.

@XScorpion: I'll ask my question again since you ignored it. Considering your firm "lurkers are scum" stance do you believe that both of our scum are in the three people who haven't posted yet? Why sergio instead of the other two?

[n107yuh]

/confirm, sorry for the lateness, first-timer. This whole forum set-up is new to me, normally im just playin this face to face......

[n107yuh]

/confirm. Sorry for the lateness again.

[Wysp]

...

@_@

Okay, now I'm confused. First you think I'm suspicious because I've picked a target and I want him lynched, and then you say that not lynching is something a Mafian would do...

What do you

want

me to do!

Frankly, IMO. I think we have a better chance if we don't vote now. No matter which of the four setups we are using, we have two Mafians and seven Town-affiliated players. Let's look at it this way:

Assuming we vote and lynch someone:
We have a 7:2, or, roughly, 3:1 chance of killing a Townie. Meaning that we will most likely hang a Townie, and the Mafia will kill someone, reducing the ratio to 5:2, or rougly 1:1. You can see where that would go downhill.

Assuming that we do not vote and lynch:
We have, as said before, seven villagers and two Mafia. Not lynching, the Mafia will kill someone and we will still have a 3:1 ratio. In addition, we will also have more information, giving us a more likely chance of nailing the Mafia, balancing out the unfavorable ratio while keeping the highest number of surviving Townies.

So, to me, it seems most favorable to null vote. Please explain your logic, I'm not sure I follow it.

[oramiuri]

Sorry! I ended up taking an impromptu road trip. But I'm back!

Vote: Sarcyn

via random.org

[Messiah]

Welcome to the game n1/oramiuri. I'm sure we'd all like to hear your thoughts on the game so far, we're kind of out of the RVS now.

@Wysp: Redo your math while taking in to account how many chances we get to lynch throughout the entire game.

Also, yes, they're both suspicious. Debating weather to hammer someone 6 hours in to day 1 is suspicious no matter how you spin it and pushing a no-lynch on day 1 is a newbie-scum tell.

[Wysp]

I'm pointing out that, if we want to get the best chance at keeping the largest amount of villagers alive, we should null vote. You can hang if you want, but I jsut think it makes the most sense.

Taking the most likely path, that is, hanging a villager, say the Mafia kill another one and we go to round two:
We would have five villagers and two Mafia. That is a 1.3:1 ratio. I'll be optimistic and assume we hang a Mafian. Then they kill one more of us, and then there would be two Townies and one Mafian. I believe we'll end up with a WIFOM argument there, which I'm hoping to avoid in my first game.

...

Haha. Nice.

I could be wrong (I'm new here and therefore my definition of "hammer" may be off), but it seems you're hammering me.

Debating whether I want to hammer may be suspicious, but actually doing it is even more so. *raises eyebrow* You say that no matter what I do I'll be suspicious, backing me into a corner in a classic Xanatos Gambit (that is, no matter what I do, you win). If I vote and press hard for that vote to go through because I think he's probably guilty, I'm suspicious. If I null-vote because I want to keep civilian casualties to a low, I'm suspicious.

You know what I think is suspicious?

You.

Pushing, pushing, pushing. Never giving up. Hammering me as hard as you can. You've been playing it calm, laid-back--just like a Mafian who doesn't want to be noticed. And as soon as I made a mistake, you jump all over me, pushing me to make another mistake. You pound me for trying to hang someone, and then I null, deciding not to hang anyone, and then you hammer me for that. I've played a few games, and every time that the Mafia won, that's how they won.

I think you are a Mafian.

Vote: Messiah

.

I've defended myself against all of your accusations, while my request for your explanation that it is disadvantageous to null on day one goes unheeded. Now, make your defense.

*deep breath*
Okay, keep things civil, Wysp. I apologize for getting upset. He's pushed me a bit far, without heeding my requests. I've played a few Mafia games, and one of the most common tactics of Mafia is to accuse without defending themselves. That's what makes me think Messiah is a Mafian.

By the way, what does the vote count stand at? I have no idea.

[Messiah]

I'm pointing out that, if we want to get the best chance at keeping the largest amount of villagers alive, we should null vote. You can hang if you want, but I jsut think it makes the most sense.

Here, have a quick read of the wiki entry for No Lynch as it explains it better than I can.

I could be wrong (I'm new here and therefore my definition of "hammer" may be off), but it seems you're hammering me.

Your definition of hammering /is/ off. A hammer is the final vote placed on someone that secures their lynch and ends the day.

Your next 6 paragraphs are basically "You're scum because you think I'm suspicious" so I won't bother having a quote war with them.

I've defended myself against all of your accusations, while my request for your explanation that it is disadvantageous to null on day one goes unheeded. Now, make your defense.

Your defense was simply that you were confused and that a scum wouldn't do what you were doing, the former being inadequate and the latter of which is WIFOM non-sense.

As for not explaining why a no-lynch on day 1 is anti-town, I did.

[Messiah]

Also, as for the vote count:


UNOFFICIAL VOTE COUNT

(2) Wysp - julienvonwolfe, Messiah
(1) n107yuh - XScorpion
(1) NewAgeWarrior - purple princess
(1) Sacryn - oramiuri
(1) Messiah - Wysp

Not Voting: n107yuh, Sarcyn, NewAgeWarrior

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch
DEADLINE: September 7, 2009 12:01 PM PST

[oramiuri]

Unvote

and IGMEOY; Wysp.

You know what I think is suspicious?

You.

Pushing, pushing, pushing. Never giving up. Hammering me as hard as you can. You've been playing it calm, laid-back--just like a Mafian who doesn't want to be noticed...

*deep breath*
Okay, keep things civil, Wysp. I apologize for getting upset. He's pushed me a bit far, without heeding my requests.

I'm slightly wary of all these histrionics and hyperbole about how ruthless and mean Messiah is. I mean, it's only been three pages and you're already talking about this person like they've invaded Poland. This smells of OMGUS and desperation to me.

[oramiuri]

And one more thing: according to the wiki (and I have no idea exactly how authoritative the wiki is considered to be) voting no lynch reduces the amount of chances available to lynch Mafia, and thus may be considered counter productive.

Personally, I am uncomfortable with this tactic as, from what I've seen when I've poked around the forums, it appears to be rather unorthodox to vote no lynch on the first day. I am unsure of what kind of situation that will put us in, and thus I feel uneasy doing it.

[Wysp]

Ah, much better. Thank you

After looking at that, I see what you're saying. I'm gonna take a laugh here. After looking at that explanation of why Mafia would push for a Null Vote, it strikes me that yes, for a Mafian, that would be a good idea. However, if you review what I've said so far, it should be obvious that I was simply seeking a way to reduce Townie casualties.

As for the definition of hammer, thank you for correcting me. I was using "hammer" in the context of pounding someone relentlessly.

I don't recall saying I was confused, although admittedly I was. I also never said anything about scum not doing what I was doing, to the best of my recollection. I have simply said that this is the best thing for the town to do, and I provided the math for it. However, if you don't want me to null, I have no issue with that. A Mafian would, yes, push for it, but I'm willing to cede. A WIFOM, possibly, but I'll let you be the judge. I'm hoping that you aren't wearing jade-colored glasses when you make your ruling.

And I wasn't asking why they are anti-town, I was asking for your math so that we could compare them side-by-side and see which would be, in the long run, more advantageous for us.

I'll also proffer this argument as to my innocence: if I was Mafia, I'da backstabbed my buddy already. I have a conscience, and the Town winning has precedence over my winning. I can cite at least two cases where I've placed the Town ahead of myself: Once, when I was a Serial Killer who targetted Mafia (this was before the concept of the Vigilante, so it was revolutionary) and then revealed my role and submitted myself to the judgement of the Town, and the second time, I found the Cop and PMed him a list of the names of my fellow Mafians. Meaning, if I am a Mafian, I would have somehow indicated who my partner in crime is. To the extent of my knowledge, it's not against the rules.

Godwin's Law, Ora. I never said anything about Messiah being a Nazi, I've simply said that this guy smells scummy to me. As for histrionics, I type how I talk. Maybe it's a character flaw of mine, but I've never met someone who had an issue with it yet. I plan to get published and I've been working on it for...pffh...six, seven years. I have a tendency to use bombastic words.
And as for the Null vote business, I've already told you. I ceased that. I think Messiah is a Mafian because he's displayed tells of Mafians that I've seen before. I'm using what experience I have.

Quick question-- Messiah, you seem to be experienced here. How many games here have you played?

[oramiuri]

Having reviewed my post, I just realized the irony of alluding to Hitler while trying to accuse Wysp of using hyperbole, lol.

The point still stands, though. Wysp appears to have been trying to appeal to emotion rather than reason, and is now citing uncheckable facts to construe some semblance of a rational argument for his character. I'm curious as to how deep this rabbit hole goes.

[Wysp]

Mm. Yeah, I'm pretty ticked off as well. I'd link it to you, but the forum is down. If you want, I can link to the forum's down message if you want me to prove, at minimum, that the forum exists. I can also get you in contact with the GM of the Serial Killer game I mentioned to corroborate my claim (sadly, I don't remember who was GMing the game where I was Mafia--I've done it a few times. XD) via AIM.

If I was appealing to emotion, I will simply say that that was not my intention. I was trying to appeal to logic as well as I know how.