/in-vitational 3: Brass & Shrapnel. Over. before 831

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Ribbit Pthbbbbt. Revenge

Vote: CDB

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@Kublai, what about hasdgfas then?

Only got one vote. Consider him

FOS

ed

Seems like placating, and I don't like it.

Unvote. Vote: Kublai.

On a different note, as we have both Vigs and (potentially) Bombs in this game, does it make sense to discuss Vig strategy?

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Happy Scumday

Why thank you. I'm just wondering why it's listed as today instead of yesterday.

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@mod, I already voted.
In case it wasn't counted,

Vote: Kubai Khan

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Do you have a good reason on why you're making sure the mod has me at L-2?

Why do you need any reason for him to want the vote count listed correctly?

lol,

unvote, vote Hasdgfas

for taking a first random/irony joke vote trying to run with it.

Feels like a scummy attempt to return to RVS.

unvote, vote curiouskarmadog

Yeah, I'm not seeing this either. How does this take us back to RVs? What about it felt like a random vote?

On a different note, as we have both Vigs and (potentially) Bombs in this game, does it make sense to discuss Vig strategy?

So the consensus is no then?

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Just making sure my original vote went through. Any reason why I shouldn't be?

In such a small game, I'd like to think that those putting on the third vote might want to have a little more substance to their reasoning. Since you're correcting the mod, it seems like your vote for me was a little more serious then I originally gave it credit for. I realize you've unvoted now so it's kinda moot, but I don't care for your play there.

Why do you need any reason for him to want the vote count listed correctly?

Why are you re-asking a question than Budja just asked?

It's not the same question. He wanted to know why he shouldn't be correcting the mod. I want to know why you think he needs a reason at all. And you still haven't answered me.

Not only that, Budja wasn't the 3rd vote on you. I was. Why didn't you check that before calling Budja out? Does me being the 3rd change things for you? If so, how?

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If I had made a random joke-vote and the mod missed it,

I wouldn't really care and I'd just keep playing and eventually place a serious vote.

I had thought that Budja's vote on me was random cause he didn't give a reason, but if he's correcting the mod, then maybe it was more serious then I had previously thought. My questioning him was a roundabout way to determine his intentions.

Really? You wouldn't want both the person you're voting for and the rest of the players to be fully aware of the fact that that person was at L-2?

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Oh, so weasel-y. Yeah, my vote's not moving any time soon.

Also, last post of every page FTW.

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Apologies, busy weekend.

I don't get it.

me: "voting for someone for pushing out of the random stage:"
commenting on your post here: "for taking a first random/irony joke vote trying to run with it."

No contridiction here.

Even if he's voting hascow for a bad way out of the RVS, he's still got something of a case, which is part of getting out of the RVS. Your intent is good but practically, you're completely wrong.

I assume you're talking to Budja here? If so, do you disagree with his case against CKD? If you do disagree, are you keeping CKD at L-2 for any particular reason?

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Yes, I'm talking to Budja.
Yes, I disagree with his case.
Yes, I still think his lack of camaraderie was a bit weird.
No, I don't really think it's a serious issue.
No, I don't intend to lynch CKD at this time.
No, I haven't found a better place for my vote yet. I'll move it when I do.

Also, since when is lynch-2 a problem?

My point was more that you're leaving CKD as the big bandwagon. Interesting cognitive dissonance that I'm seeing here, but I'm not sure what to make of it.

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Prodded. Apologies, busy week. Will post content later today or tomorrow.

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One thing that hasn't gotten discussed is method of deciding who to hammer. Since there are supersaints, we're going to need to figure that out, right?

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Why is hasdgfas not scummy? Can anyone make an argument for him being town?

This is an odd question. Are you saying that hascow is def-scum?

I think that when a player gets to L-2, people should stop voting. Instead they should simply announce that they are willing to join the lynch. Once two people have done so, then the lynchee is allowed to look at their lynch and choose who they want to be the hammer. Then we make it happen. Penalties to be enacted no those that try anything funny.

Sound good?

Have you seen it done this way before? If so, where? Given that two people (including yourself) have been at L-2 this game, why didn't you suggest this until now?

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The only other solution I can think of is asking people to hammer themselves.

This doesn't seem like a good solution. It entirely negates the power of supersaints (who are guaranteed town).

The only other solution I can think of is that we all choose the hammerer, as opposed to just the the lynchee. I'm not necessarily saying that this is a better solution that Kublai's first one; I don't know which of these two I'd choose. Just that it does seem to be a feasible way of going about it.

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Kublai seems like a better lynch to me at this point, but I agree with

My reason for voting Quagmire is, in its entirety, this post:

Why is hasdgfas not scummy? Can anyone make an argument for him being town?

"Prove he's town" is a mislynch-friendly mindset.

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I owe this game some serious consideration. My gut instinct is telling me to keep in on Kublai, but I need to dig in.

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I didn't really pick up on anything game-changing in my re-read. I think this game needs a wagon, so I'm happy to go back to

Vote: Kublai

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Kublai, your bolded contradiction is a good catch. I missed it. Any reason that you pointed this out to me, rather than questioning molestargazer directly?

Even so, this game desperately needs a wagon. When I voted you, the vote count listed only molestar's vote on you, and given that I still think there are a few day 1 scumtells from you, I was willing to be a part of that wagon. However, now that there are two options, I think I'm willing to switch to

unvote, vote: molestar

. molestar, please explain the contradiction Kublai notes.

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1. I'm not called molestar.

Apologies, I won't abbreviate your name anymore.

2. I believe it's a case of when KK first brought it up, the look of it to me was that it was reaching a chainsaw-y. At the time when I joined it, I looked more in-depth and found it to be a valid case.

I'll explain more if needs be.

Are a player's reasons for voting locked in stone at the time of his/her vote? Do you feel that Kublai's were?

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Prodded. Not much to add at this juncture. Poro and CDB should weigh in.

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Was anything going to get accomplished in this game without a wagon?

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Prodded, busy weekend, sorry.

As for Bomb-claim, I don't think I'm for it. What do people think of a Vig/Not Vig massclaim?

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As for Bomb-claim, I don't think I'm for it. What do people think of a Vig/Not Vig massclaim?

That would be the exact same thing as a bomb claim! It's like handing the mafia a "Who to kill to win the game" list.

I was thinking that it could both help vigs and potentially trap scum, but I certainly see what you're saying.

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CKD and Kublai, are either of you at all worried about the LYLO that's likely to occur very soon? Why so free with your votes?

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also, everyone has posted...and there was no mad rush to quick lynch you...SO...either you or I are scum..and clearly we are the two lynch canidates today....

Except... not. What with the no kill, we're not at the point where quicklynching can happen (6 players, 2 scum). We are likely at LYLO however. I fear we're being suckered here.

I'm currently getting over a fever, and don't particularly trust myself at the moment. Can we not have a lynch right right now? That would help me out.

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People on the Quag-wagon: Kublai, Poro, CDB, Budja
People on the MSG-wagon: Kublai, ML
People implicitly endorsing MSG-wagon: CDB, CKD

God, this is awful. I want to hear more from CDB.

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so the scum team is 2 of the following

CDB, ML, or Bud.

And you know that KK's kill wasn't a mafia kill how?

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In fact, KK has

got

to be maf. A vig kill would mean that the maf kill (which can come at any time) would end the game in a scum win, as long as it doesn't hit a bomb. And I hope KK-town would have figured that out. No vote, as I'm running off to class and want to make sure my logic holds up, but that's how I see it.

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Yup, Kublai is either scum or has already lost the game for town.

Vote Kublai

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Maybe he didn't realise the implications. But it was an odd move.

This.

Need a bit of time to re-read given Kublai-scum. Budja, you're claiming that hascow was your kill and that the scum did not make a "Night" 1 kill?

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Budja, unless you can give a good reason not to, please kill CDB during this morning period.

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Then we lynch Budja. I have a hard time seeing you as scum, CKD, and I hope you see the same about me.

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Yeah, I'd ask you to look at Day 1, where I was probably pushing hardest on the Kublai wagon, and my actions yesterday, which were to immediately call out Kublai's kill as maf. As scum, there would have been incentive for me to at least wait a bit and see if anyone else figured it out.

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Hmm. Possibilities:
1) Budja lied about the CDB kill this morning.
2) Budja was RBed.
3) CDB was doc'ed.
4) Budja is a blank vig, and hascow was also a scum kill.

Anything I'm missing?

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Anti-mass claim at this juncture. I would like a CDB claim.

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@mod

, if the mafia have an additional action (roleblocking or doctoring), can they do both their kill and the additional action in a single night? I couldn't find anywhere in the rules that stated one way or the other.

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Sorry for triple-post.

I'm pretty sure I want to No Lynch today and do the whole thing over again: Budja vigs CDB over the morning. If CDB lived via a doc-protect, that ability is lost upon first successful protect. So, if the same thing happens (no kills) we'd be able to rule out my (3) tomorrow.

It's definitely a delay, but I'm pretty sure its the optimal play.

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Vote: No Lynch

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List of Possible Roles

...

Additional information that may be included in the Mafia PM (parentheses indicate variable content):

...

You (also) have a (group) doctor ability: each day you may target a player; one kill attempt on that player that happens during that day will fail. (You lose this ability upon one successful protection.)

Crap crap crap. I misread it. The "lose ability after 1 successful protection" is variable content, not definite. I still think the "Lather, No Lynch, Repeat" strategy is the optimal play, but it doesn't eliminate (3) like I'd thought.

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Yeah, it removes some possibilities: the one-shots and the "loss after first protection". It's in no way a guaranteed solution, but there's a chance that it solves our problem, and even a slim chance is worth it, I think.

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so we are just waiting on the mod now?

I know I am.

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Morning should end soon. If CDB doesn't end up dead, we need him to show up or to get a replacement.

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Okie dokie. Well, a lynch can't happen without 3 people on it. So either the 3 present lynch CDB, or CDB needs to come back and help figure this out.

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Welcome Poro! Claim please!

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I would love love love for CKD to claim, but if he doesn't want to, I understand. I have some things to contemplate.

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Well, no hammer proves Macavity is certainly not scum.

@Macavity, Whatever happens, do NOT claim. If you are not a bomb, scum could kill you for a auto-win (I'd be autolynched at that point).

I ain't no idiot. I will not be claiming. But I do want CKD to claim.

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CKD, before I start in on a real deep dive, I'd like to know what it would take to get you to into a PoroII-wagon today. That's how I'm leaning at the moment, and it would need you to make it happen.

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I would like to hear opinions of the following claims:

Morning ends. Nothing happens.

On a reread from day 2.
I must be a blank vig as I submitted the kill during the morning.
Not that that helps anything at this stage.

I am a vig.

Day 1, I tried to kill Bud.
Day 2, I tried to kill KK

I didnt even bother sending a kill today...I assume that I am blank....

guess I could try.

That is, the questions I'm most interested in: a) Budja earlier claimed responsibility for hascow's death, but now recognizes that the timing wasn't right. Is this mistake/"mistake" more likely to come from scum? b) Does CKD's play make sense given him as blank vig?

Also, CKD, I see no harm in you attempting to kill Budja.

----

@mod

, yet another setup question I couldn't seem to find in the rules: There was flexibility in the setup (3-5 vig-types, 2-4 bomb/supersaints, distribution of roles within that group unknown, etc.) Did you build the setup such that you knew the distribution of roles going in, or was it designed with uncertainty and dice-rolling?

That is, did you say "I will have 5 vigs (2 blank, 3 not) & 2 bomb/supersaints (1 of each)", or did you say "I will roll 1d3 to find out which distribution, and within each group, I will roll 1d2 to decide between bomb/supersaint or blank/regular vig"? Thanks!

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OK, screw waiting around. I was going to wait until Budja and PoroII chimed in, but nevermind. Here's my best case on PoroII:

1) Both CKD and Budja have done things I don't think scum would do. Budja's RV was on Kublai, Korts missed it, Budja reminded him, and then they had that little tiff about whether it was pro-town to remind the mod about the vote. In my opinion, that would have had to be heavily manufactured to be from scumbuddies. At the end of Day 1, Budja added his vote to the Quag-wagon. CKD, I know that you think that vote would never have counted and Budja did it to earn townie points, but I don't think that there was any way Budja could have known Korts's policy, so either way it was a real risk, not something scum would have done.

CKD, your day 3 was very anti-Kublai, and it didn't look like bussing.

2) CDB/PoroII has done basically nothing in this game. I have no real useful ties or buses to make with him.

3) And now the kicker. Sorry Korts, I'm going to break the game with a mass-claim. I'm a Bomb. That means 2 town bombs (me and Quag) and 1 unknown claimer (PoroII). While having 3 bombs + 1 supersaint fits into the flexible setup, I highly doubt that it's balanced given 2 scum.

OK, time to see if I made the right choice.

Vote: PoroII

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That's proof CKD is not scum either.

Yes it is. Not only that, but the fact that it's been over a day since I made my vote is also substantial evidence that Budja isn't scum. If he was scum, he could have immediately sent a kill on CKD that would have auto-lynched PoroII. It certainly isn't proof, as we have no real idea when/if Budja checked in on the thread yesterday, but it's definitely something. I knew when I made it that my vote would be enough to end the game in a town loss if either Budja or CKD were scum, and it ain't over yet, so...

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Rock rock on. Obviously, I am town.

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Well, I would've liked to survive, but woo-hoo! Go town!

Honestly, by the end I was more worried that CKD was scum than Budja. CKD, I was very much afraid that your "I keep missing things with this setup" was an act.

As a Bomb, I knew it was my job to remain as conspicuously pro-town as possible. I think I failed miserably at that during days 1 and 2. I lurked way too much. (Though so did everybody.)

Kublai, I can't believe you convinced me to vote MSG on Day 2. Damn you! :}

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The balance looks fine to me, though I'd be interested to hear what the scum think about it. How did the doc ability interact with Bombs, by the way?

Also, thanks for modding, Korts, very interesting game.

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And Porochaz was in a bad spot as scum replacement. I think the only way he might have had a chance was to claim Super-Saint, but he couldn't have known there were only blank vigs left.

I may be missing something obvious, but why was a Vig (blank or not) claim out of bounds?