Newbie 814(over!)

[Sudai]

Did Lego really just give us confirmation? Wow. That changes things a bit. Depending on how the rest of the day goes, I wouldn't be opposed to lynching someone other than him, but I want to have a serious scum read on them before we throw out a possible mislynch.

Once again, still waiting on Sam.. :/

My V/LA status: My mom and I arrived in Kansas today. My grandfather collapsed due to exaughstion and he's going to be in the hospital till Friday so they can keep an eye on him. I'll be able to post from the computer at his house. I'm probably going to have another V/LA this weekend to get back home, but I'll update you guys on that when it happens.

[legomaniac1128]

(Out of game)
Sudai, I hope you're grandfather get's better. If you need time to deal with things, do so. It helped me before, it should help you.

[hasdgfas]

Evil Sonidow (1) - Manzcar
Manzcar (1) - Evil Sonidow
legomaniac1128 (2) - atma, Sudai
sam.samhorn (1) - Vaya
atma (1) - legomaniac1128

Not voting: sam.samhorn

Sudai, take all the time you need. Don't feel guilty if you want to replace out either, I'm sure everyone would understand.

[Manzcar]

unvote

for obvious reasons

[atma]

obvious reasons? I thought you suspected him of scum...

That being said, I stand corrected regarding my last post: I can see how it might be beneficial to use a mislynch today after all. But Manzcar's point about outing a doc still stands, though we could just risk it really.

[Manzcar]

Evil is still a suspect but lego is our lynch today especially since he has admittd that he is scum.

[legomaniac1128]

Before I die, just remember that I'll be moderating a Sonic Mafia in a bit if anyone's interested. That said, I guess I'll be going. I'm practically a dead man. No need to be here no more. See you around.

[atma]

Alright I just thought of something else guys. Here's how I see our options:

(this is all assuming Vaya is a real cop and legomaniac is a real scum)

Choice 1: We lynch legomaniac as a known scum.
Advantages:
- we lynch a known scum, meaning we get one for sure mislynch tomorrow. and if mafia targets cop and doc saves cop, we are up an extra player and a cop report.

Disadvantages:
- if there is no doctor, Vaya will die and we're back at square one.
- Vaya loses the chance to argue a case for someone he thinks is scum (sam, as it seems)


Choice 2: We use a mislynch on someone we think to be scum
Advantages:
- if we are right, we have an easy victory
- we could hit a mafia roleblocker, considering lego claimed normal goon (if he is to be trusted)
- we have a somewhat clear doctor to follow a mislynch from.

Disadvantages:
- we risk outing a possible doctor
- if wrong, we are at square one in three-way lylo two days from now.
- something else that I forgot at the moment.


One thing I just realized is that we will have no more cop reports because either A) there is no doctor and mafia kills cop tomorrow or B) there is a doctor, but that means there is a roleblocker if I remember correctly, meaning no cop report. But if B is the case we have a probable clear for tomorrow if they let Vaya live and try to hit doc.

I would like to hear all your opinions on what you want to do. As for me, I am not 100% decided, though I am leaning towards lynching lego slightly.

[atma]

****Choice 2, that last advantage, I meant to say we have a somewhat clear COP to follow a mislynch from, not doctor.

[Sudai]

This game uses the 9-player setup called F11, which consists of four possibilities:

• 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Sane Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Townies.
  
• 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies.
  
• 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Cop, 6 Townies.
  
• 2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, 6 Townies.

One of these was chosen totally at random, as were all role assignments.

Just wanted to confirm that if we have a cop and a doctor, they have a role blocker.

Part of me feels that Lego is pulling a gambit on us, actually. He could possibly be a role blocker and claim goon so there's less of a chance for us to lynch him since we had already made that a possibility.

I really don't know though. I just came in from watching the Meteor Shower and it's 2AM here so I'm going to go to sleep on all of this and come back tomorrow with a clear head.

[sam.samhorn]

Look, if Lego is a confirmed scum, everything else can wait until tomorrow. I understand I'm to be the focal point of discussion , as the lack of connections between lego and I has been addressed and is legitimate. However they're wrong, and I'll do everything I can to help the town prevent their lynch.

Anyways, you don't bypass lynching a confirmed scum to catch another target today. We must lynch lego.

vote: legomaniac

[Manzcar]

lego is now L-1 and in my opinion his lynch gives us more than a random lynch. If sam is not going to answer any more questions today i see no reason not to lynch lego now. I will hammer unless some one can give me a good reason not to do it.

[Vaya]

It bothers me that samhorn wants to end the day so quickly before addressing any of the concerns I have with him(or presenting his case against atma that he promised for that matter). I can't help but feel that he just wants to address it tomorrow so that he can speak with his biggest accuser dead.

Manzcar, if you feel comfortable ending the day now, you can go ahead and hammer.

[Manzcar]

I agree with you about sam but if he is going to clam up there is nothing we can do about it. it is just another scummy thing to add to the list. i'll give it at least 12 hours before i hammer

[Vaya]

That's what I was thinking too, that if he won't talk now, there's little we can do about it. That's why I don't have a problem with you ending the day if you want. Waiting about 12 hours sounds like a good idea though, to give anyone else a chance if they want to say something before the day is over.

[atma]

I wanted to hear all of sam's stuff today, but if he refuses then there is no reason not to hammer.

[Sudai]

There's actually a few other people I want to hear from before we end the day, but they've been inactive for days anyway and I'd rather keep our momentum going anyway. Feel free to hammer at the end of the day.

[Sudai]

I say anyway a lot when I wake up apparently. Forgot to do this bit:

@Mod: Can we get prods on inactives?

[sam.samhorn]

Found some time to post thoughts on atma. Don't hammer yet.

[sam.samhorn]

Alright sorry this took so long. I haven’t had any kind of detailed post in forever.

Here, way back in day one, is what originally piqued my interest in atma:

vote GOTOR13

clearly, GOTOR won't be contributing anything and it seems weird that he would bother to stop by but not say anything remotely useful. so I would be okay with this lynch.

But, also I would like to FOS Vaya, his last few posts just don't go over well with me, one is him using someone else's reasoning for his own vote without adding anything. Also, he was defending legomaniac, which seems odd. I'm pretty sure legomaniac can defend himself, just seems odd.

This post in and of itself didn’t seem too harmless but I made a mental note to watch where atma would go with his vote of GOTOR. There was a difference in reasoning between when I voted for GOTOR and why atma did; mine was a clear policy vote because GOTOR didn’t seem interested in participating at all and I voted him with the message “either post or get replaced, please.”

Atma seemingly used hit vote on GOTOR as a legitimate post for lurking, which I’ve never bought into. So I kept watch. Here’s what came after:

why would you not want to lynch gotor13 just cause he might be replaced? fact of the matter is, you base your vote off how someone is currently, not a future possibility. its just not logical to think like that.

I understand what are you saying but consider this: lurking is sometimes considered to be scummy, so what if GOTOR was lurking but covering it by saying he was busy and away etc.? that was my point. but it was made sort of a moot point when mr. moderator just told us he is going to be replaced soon. eh.

Later he admitted that he didn’t know GOTOR was just inactive and vanished out of nowhere and unvoted him. But his reasons for voting him seemed really scummy-opportunistic, as he fruitfully attacked a lurker and tried to use it as a legitimate case.

What really got me was this post though:

First of all,

Unvote GOTOR13/Manzcar

Now that he has been replaced, no reason for my vote to be on him at the moment.

Atma why do you want to lynch a lurker? Do you think this is pro town? Who is your top suspect and why?

As I tried to explain in a previous post, it wasn't so much the fact that he was lurking, but more the fact that he dropped by to say he was around and almost immediately turned around and said he was leaving, without providing even a single tiny snippet of content. To me, it just seemed like he was trying to lay low and not draw any attention to himself. That being said, as his replacement, you are seeming much more pro-town, so perhaps it is good he was replaced.

And yes, I consider voting someone I find to be suspicious pro-town.

As for my suspects, I just did a quick reread of the topic to try to gather my opinions again. Most people seem to be agreeing that itavc is being scummy, and I think I will have to agree as well. Manzcar and Sudai's posts highlighted this fact quite well. As I went back through the topic and reread itavc's posts, each subsequent post seems to get more and more scummy. He started by casting suspicion on me and legomaniac but soon jumped ship and OMGUS voted sam.

To me, it seems as we grow suspicious of itavc, it is shaking his confidence. His posts are overflowing with emotion and he is making threats and such. If you were really town, what would you have to be so afraid of? But he hasn't said anything in a bit, so I want to see his response to some of these newer posts before I vote him.

As for secondary suspicions, I think most we can all agree that legomaniac jumping votes all over is scummy, but I'm not sure whether to think of that as bad play or him being scum yet. I want to see him post some real content soon as well, cause he hasn't really said much of anything of interest.

I also slightly fos Vaya, as I said earlier for reasons I posted in post 124. But this could also be me over-analyzing things, so I'm not too worried about it yet.


IN SUMMARY:
itavc seems scummy, mostly because of his OMGUS vote on sam, and at this current moment I would be in favor of his lynch. I would also be okay with a legomaniac lynch.

Itavc, legomaniac, and evil sonidow all really need to make some new posts with some good content IMO. We hardly even know anything about Evil Sonidow, so I'm interested in seeing how he reacts.



Also, one more thing. Correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't it be advantageous for us to lynch on day 1? If so, the deadline is this saturday and so personally, I would like to get alot of this stuff that is hanging around all sorted out by then.
[/b]

You reread a thread and don’t come up with anything other than generalized observations? Recaps of what’s happened? No top scum suspects, nothing you find at all? This is a classic example of “talking a lot but saying nothing.”

I haven’t been able to get as good of a read on his day two posts since I’ve been busy/away/catching up the majority of today, but I’ve noticed quite a bit of words that don’t wrap around a particular point, as if he’s talking in order to contribute or make it seem like he’s not lurking. Here’s a quick example:

Alright, I understand your point a little better now Vaya. From your point of view, it does make sense to lynch your suspect for the other scum, Sam. However, unfortunately, for the rest of us, we should be a little hesitant due to the fact that you could be lying, leading to a near instant town loss. You give us reasons why you would not fake cop, and while I am inclined to believe you are the real cop, it may not be best to follow you necessarily.

Here's what it comes down to I think. If we want to play it safe, to make absolutely sure we won't lose anytime soon, then we want to lynch lego today to see if he is scum and Vaya is really cop. There is a slight chance I suppose that Vaya could be lego's mafia buddy, but it seems very dangerous for Vaya to claim cop with the potential of there being a real cop.

I don’t really like how he’s taking one sentence and turning it into three; it’s like he’s trying to bullshit his way through a college research paper. Except with this I feel he’s trying to bullshit the town into thinking he’s town.


quote tag fixed

[sam.samhorn]

MOD: Can you please fix that last atma quote? I made this in word and forgot to clear the formatting before I posted.

[sam.samhorn]

Once again, I think we should revisit the case against me tomorrow, since it's virtually guaranteed at this point that lego is scum and talking about me tomorrow is probably going to take up the majority of the day.

I just realized something big as I was typing up that last post. I think I discovered who the scum pair are.

I agree with Meji, but keeping my vote for the sake of random voting!!! If Sam has anything to say, it would be appreciated, so we can tell whose scum and who isn't.

Finger of Suspiscion: sam.samhorn

At this point in the game, all he ever did was go around, agreeing with what everyone else says and voting with them. He never had any problem before with changing his random vote. But for some reason, when it came to samhorn, lego suddenly decides he doesn't want to jump around with his vote anymore. This is because he didn't want to place a vote on his scumbuddy.

Any comments that are directed at lego's actions I can't comment on because I'm not lego. I'll just skip those points in your accusations.

You are scummy. I will vote you once GOTOR posts something or he gets replaced.

I think I realize what he might have been doing with this post. If samhorn provided reasons that he thought itacv2 was scummy, he probably would have just argued the points instead of getting so upset about the reasonless accusations. I think he purposely accuses itacv2 of being scummy without explaining why in order to get a bad reaction out of him and make him look scummy to everyone else. He was probably trying to help his scumbuddy out by getting one of his attackers lynched.

That's a fair point, but wrong; throughout my mafia career, I've always made posts, as town or scum, that make blanket statements "X is scummy," "Y is town," before ever explaining the reasoning behind it. Also, don't forget that you agreed yourself Vaya that itacv2 was scummy with that post.

To be fair I was trying to get itacv2 lynched actively but that's because I thought he was scum. Truthfully, I haven't had a good enough read on legomaniac all game and it wasn't until this cop claim that won me over.

I've also realized that all game, samhorn seems to have completely neglected to comment on lego's scummy-looking behavior, or say anything to or about lego for that matter. It's as if he's trying to distance himself from lego.

Something else that I now realize is really odd is his declaration that he figured out who both of the mafia are, itacv2 and atma. I would think that when making such a claim, part of you're reasoning would include their interactions with each other. But when itacv2 flipped town, this didn't seem to affect his belief that atma is scum at all. It seems to me that he must have already known itacv2 was town.

No, I never use interactions between players when building a case on someone, because there are so many ways scum could out-WIFOM town with this that it's ridiculous. I thought atma was scum and I thought itacv2 was scum, that's about it. Don't know what else I'm supposed to say here.

Finally, I've noticed at Day 2, everyone except samhorn has been attacking lego or talking about how scummy he is. I could be wrong, but I don't get the feeling that any of you guys are scum busing your fellow scum, especially atma, who samhorn is accusing of being scum. In fact, samhorn seems to be lurking Day 2. He may simply not be here, but maybe he's been put into a tough spot with everyone suspicious off his scumbuddy and asking for his opinion on things.

Simply because we know lego's scum and we can lynch him any time knowing this, I think we should lynch samhorn first just to be safe.

I didn't get a good read off of lego, simply because he could be confused town just as easily as he could be scum, so I didn't say anything on it. I haven't had a good enough read on him to say anything either way.

Earlier during Day 2 though you can be assured that I was busy/gone and wasn't checking the thread though.

[Vaya]

Any comments that are directed at lego's actions I can't comment on because I'm not lego. I'll just skip those points in your accusations

Fair enough, I can't expect you to address such points. But the fact still remains that lego contradicted his usual behavior to avoid voting for you, and that's still a point against you, whether you can be expected to argue it or not.

That's a fair point, but wrong; throughout my mafia career, I've always made posts, as town or scum, that make blanket statements "X is scummy," "Y is town," before ever explaining the reasoning behind it. Also, don't forget that you agreed yourself Vaya that itacv2 was scummy with that post.

To be fair I was trying to get itacv2 lynched actively but that's because I thought he was scum. Truthfully, I haven't had a good enough read on legomaniac all game and it wasn't until this cop claim that won me over.

If you say that's how you usually play, I guess I'll trust you on that one. Still, it's odd that trying to get itacv2 lynched is just about the only action you've taken in this game thus far, and its an action that really benefited scum(particularly lego). Your accusations probably caused lego's lynch to be delayed a day, by taking pressure away from him and putting it on his attacker.

You say that you thought itacv2 was scum, based off of what? Going by what you said earlier(post 202), at the point you first said he was scummy, all that he said that bothered you was that he was willing to back down if given a good reason. I get why you thought it was scummy, but I don't see why it was more worth commenting on than lego's behavior. I don't see why you would just give lego the benefit of the doubt that his scummy behavior may have been the result of being an inexperienced, confused townie and that it wasn't worth commenting on, but you immediately go after itacv2 for his single comment.

No, I never use interactions between players when building a case on someone, because there are so many ways scum could out-WIFOM town with this that it's ridiculous. I thought atma was scum and I thought itacv2 was scum, that's about it. Don't know what else I'm supposed to say here.

Again, fair enough. I don't have much problem with this answer.

I didn't get a good read off of lego, simply because he could be confused town just as easily as he could be scum, so I didn't say anything on it. I haven't had a good enough read on him to say anything either way.

This really bothers me. You're the IC of this game, isn't it your job here to help out newbies? If you thought lego might have simply been a confused townie, why didn't you say anything to him about how scummy he was making himself look?

I find it suspicious that, with as much attention as he's been getting, you didn't find anything about him worth commenting on at all.

[hasdgfas]

I say anyway a lot when I wake up apparently. Forgot to do this bit:

@Mod: Can we get prods on inactives?

Nobody is in prod range, but if you wish someone specific prodded, let me know.

[Sudai]

@Mod: My bad. I have a poor judge of real life time. I don't go back to Uni till Sept 10th so I'm still in "What day is it?" mode.

This debate is an interesting read. I'm currently feeling more on Vaya's side, but that's mostly because this is a case I had brewing in my mind as well. I'm still not close to 100% either way though. If Sam can really defend himself, that's one thing, but it's going to be hard to in my eyes.