Mini 828 - ProzacMod 3 - Lost Mafia - Over

[Porochaz]

Drench is requesting replacement

[curiouskarmadog]

(got a busy week, look for a post on Friday)

in reference to this game..

Drench is getting a replacement?...interesting....will check to see if he is staying in other games.

[EmpTyger]

Reckoner:
Seems like VP just gave you your “actual case against which you can defend yourself”- you have a defense?
And, why the insistence on “actual cases”? When you first voted Jason, there was nothing of the sort, and most of your posts against him haven’t been with reasons.

---

VP:
I’m not really seeing what you see in Jason.

[83]: you originally said that this was Jason “just sheeping along”
[119]: this seems no different than Reckoner’s [229]: a call for his attacker to be more specific in their attack.
[176]: Jason defending himself, not “scumhunting”. The vote at the end seems tacked on to me.

---

Juls:

<snip>

Juls:
I’m paraphrasing, but you seem to be saying “either Zoneace is town or he’s pretending to be town; therefore he’s town”?

No, what I meant was that if he is scum, it is pretty risky to bring THAT much attention to yourself on D1. Basically what I am saying here is his "rage" seems authentic. <snip>

But that wasn’t what brought attention to Zoneace- it was his non-comments that did. He already had 3 players voting him at the time of his “rage”.
So, temporarily assuming Zoneace is antitown, and he’s gotten attention for an unrelated reason- how certain are you that he would or wouldn’t “rage”?

---

Zoneace:
Specifically, what has Reckoner done that’s “trying to appear town” but hasn’t been “being town”?

---

Jebus:
Still waiting on an answer to [187] whenever you decide to stop lurking.

[Juls]

But that wasn’t what brought attention to Zoneace- it was his non-comments that did. He already had 3 players voting him at the time of his “rage”.
So, temporarily assuming Zoneace is antitown, and he’s gotten attention for an unrelated reason- how certain are you that he would or wouldn’t “rage”?

Then maybe I am not understanding what you are asking? The comment you are paraphrasing is what my explanation is for. As far as Zoneace's behavior before that, I addressed it in my first game-related post:

ZoneAce's random vote/not commenting:

NOTHING major HAS HAPPENED yet this game. So I really don't get how Channel and Locke are acting as if we have had some major scum slips going on. @Locke: Channel has said he would have been content if Zone had said "nothing has happened". Would you have been content with that comment? Is your problem with the fact that his vote is random?

What exactly are you asking me? Or what do you want me to respond to?

[EmpTyger]

Juls:
The original comment that puzzled me was this:

<snip>
I LOL'd. I have been known to get too invested but I have to agree this reaction is just ludicris. Although I don't agree he should be lynched for it. ZONEACE, what has transpired is not worthy of this response. I have to say, that you are town or this is some pro-manufactured rage.

TL;DR
============
<snip>
~ZONEACE needs to calm down....Alot. But I think he is town at this point.
<snip>

You seem to say “either Zoneace is town or he’s pretending to be town; therefore he’s town”, which obviously doesn’t follow. You clarify in [214] that you thought Zoneace is town because he wouldn't want to call attention to himself if he were guilty. Except that at that time, he was already at the center of attention!

So, basically, I'm asking you to reconcile your analysis of Zoneace with that fact.

[xRECKONERx]

What is the scum motivation for trying to move the game forward out of the RVS? How exactly is this jumping the gun? What should jason have waited for to make his vote on zone appropriate in your eyes?

The reasoning wasn't solid, I'm saying. Scum motivation for trying to move the game out of RVS isn't there, but neither is any solid reasoning.

And in your unbearable back and forth with Zoneace, I got frustrated townie vibes from him, while I got the "calm and collected scum" vibe from you.

Not everyone plays as calm scum or acts like they have an aneurism when they are town...and since you don't believe in meta, this means a whole pile of squat.

Hey, guess what, you can get vibes from people without knowing their meta. I know, crazy, right? Because some Mafia players like myself don't have time to read through pages of old games just to memorize someone's playstyle.

Also, WTF.

A misreading of a mistake is somehow unconvincing as a scumtell.

I failed to see how that was a misreading of a mistake. I still don't get it, actually. And, furthermore, I believe the question I asked was "What the Fuck?". As in, "Want to explain this?".

tl,dr-Your reasons for voting Jason are heavily padded and it was a very opportunistic wagon to try and get on at that time.

Or, I agreed with the wagon and added some ADDITIONAL things that were bothering me re: Jason.

[ZONEACE]

---

Zoneace:
Specifically, what has Reckoner done that’s “trying to appear town” but hasn’t been “being town”?

---

What i mean is that a townie doesn't have to ACT a certain way to be a townie, but scum have to pretend to be town and Reckoner's actions came across as false to me, like he was trying to do things to look like he was helping but wasn't.

The best example was his bringing up (i think) CDB's wiki entry. It made it look like he was doing something and being helpful, but in reality accomplished nothing.

[xRECKONERx]

ZONEACE, I misread the post which prompted me to bring up CDB's wiki entry.

[Porochaz]

Santos has replaced Drench

[ZONEACE]

ZONEACE, I misread the post which prompted me to bring up CDB's wiki entry.

so?

[jasonT1981]

Finally caught up... Am responding to each post as I read them so If it seems I am mirroring anyones thoughts sorry, these are mine at the time of reading them

I'm still dubious about Jason moving his vote only after I prompted him but Reckoner is not doing himself any favours. 183 seems implausible to me; surely he would have read back and looked at what was said when people jumped on him for the role post? Not only that, but if he didn't really buy into it, why is he trying to excuse himself now? There's not much to say about 189, it's another worthless post.

Unvote; Vote: Reckoner

While I can understand your concerns about me here, I will admit I only picked up on Reckoner fully when you asked me what I thought, I went back over his posts and relized how scummy he actually was. His jump on my bandwagon did already have my attention... but what I posted really made me think... wow scummy.

every vote is on the current bandwagon (only when it is hot) spouting out what other's have said. every vote leaves himself open to jump back to the previous has needed. His net gets wider and wider....

I think this is the scum....trying to jump on the wagons in the middle to avoid notice.

unvote, vote locke

This is a very interesting point about Locke

They are all scummy, for reasons I quite clearly explained. I indicated my doubts about Reckoner even when I put my vote on Jason. It's not as though I suddenly just changed my mind and went for him to get on the wagon. Reckoner's last post made it sound as though he's not even taking things seriously; I think it warranted extra pressure.

Seems quite opertunistic really to me.

Speculating over whether I'd take less blame or avoid notice for getting on bandwagons after they've started is pretty pointless. Zoneace, Jason and Reckoner have all done things I considered scummy, so I voted for them. I even continued to push Jason about his vote on Zoneace after others had stopped because I still don't like the tentative way he voted for him and I didn't want Jason to fade into the background because Reckoner was acting so scummy.

I already gave my reasons for my vote on Zoneace... why continue to push when it was made clear?

How did I know there was going to be a Reckoner wagon? That was before he put his vote on Jason and got called out on it; the Reckoner wagon didn't even exist.

I think it was probably sensible for Zoneace to step away from the game for a bit, although having read some meta it seems that his response to the votes was fairly typical of him anyway. I think it's a little convenient that he disappeared just as more votes started to get put on Jason and attention shifted away from him. It makes him a little more scummy in my eyes. I'd like to see some examples of what he thinks is Reckoner trying to appear town instead of just being town.

Indeed, how did you know? But yes, it was sensible for ZA to step away I believe, we all have blow ups from time to time and it would have made matters worse if he did not take time to calm down.

I don't think it is convient he disappeared though.. he needed to cool down, would you rather he continued to post in the mood he was in (No offence ZA)

Votecount 4, Page 9

xRECKONERx - 4 - ChannelDelibird, VP Baltar, Jason,

Locke Lamora

Jason - 3 - Juls, Jebus, xReckonerx
LockeLamora - 2 - Drench, curiouskarmadog
Jebus - 1 - canadianbovine


Not Voting:
Emptyger, ZONEACE

I do not know why, I am getting the feeling of bussing his partner... at this point I am thinking a Locke/Reckoner scum partnership.

I think it was probably sensible for Zoneace to step away from the game for a bit, although having read some meta it seems that his response to the votes was fairly typical of him anyway. I think it's a little convenient that he disappeared just as more votes started to get put on Jason and attention shifted away from him. It makes him a little more scummy in my eyes.

So wait, It's sensible but scummy? So, I did what was best for the town, but clearly that makes me scum????

Could you TRY A LITTLE HARD TO HAVE IT BOTH WAYS?! Why don't you just set it up so that you look good no matter which way you vote EVERYONE, set up a little thing like you just set up with me, so that no matter what happens, you don't look bad.

I agree, it cant be both scummy, yet sensible.. it is one or the other and I think this is a feebale attempt to start shifting attention

So, I'm scum for... voting jason, despite posting a case when asked to, and misreading a quote by Baltar?

Yeah. Wagon reeks of scum. Time to sniff him out. Oh, wait, hello Jason. Already found him.

Already responded to this I believe, but anyway... you didnt present a case, you hoped on the wagon then when pressured gave regurgated reasoning for it.

So. That's me at L-2, for anyone not keeping track. Can we find a better wagon please?

I'll be back from V/LA tomorrow and be able to give this game more attention.

Really, this makes it sound like we are still in the RVS wagons, the wagon is on you because of scummy behaviour and as I see it right now... is 5 votes on a scummy person.. and not jjust a wagon. but actual reasoning for votes.

You admit he is deserving of the vote... yet then question me for voting? if he was not deserving of the vote by all means you have every right to question me about 'hopping on the wagon' but when you say it is deserving, makes me wonder why you would then question someone voting him... if it really is as you say 'deserving'

Just because he is deserving of a vote doesn't mean that you aren't being opportunistic in jumping on the wagon. What do you think of other people? Most wagons are "deserving" on some level. What I have a problem with is that you are 5th on the wagon. If you made your case on him in post 176 as you say, why didn't you vote him then?

If I had just voted I could see it as opertunistic yes, but I did give reasons in post 176 i believe after being asked my opinion on Reckoner. I did vote him..i think I pointed this out to you before.

I'm sorry,my mistake. In my most recent post I had confused your vote and ZoneAce's recent vote as you can see by my "5th on the wagon" comment. My only valid point then from my post 221 is the first few sentences "Just because he is deserving of a vote doesn't mean that you aren't being opportunistic in jumping on the wagon. What do you think of other people? Most wagons are "deserving" on some level. " I would still like your answer to that. (Note to self, don't post before drinking caffeinated beverage)

Its ok, we all make mistakes but right now I am thinking about Locke also being possible scum. Zoneace despite his blowup is probably a fustrated town member annoyed at the wagon. It makes no sense for scum to blow up like that for 3 votes.

Jason:
Then how certain are you about Reckoner?

fairly confident we will get scum based on his behaviour.

Really? I’ve been seeing Jason trying to blend in and avoid his own lynch, but I don’t really see him trying to hunt. Where are you seeing that type of behavior?

I've made several attempts. my post on Zoneace and Reckoner are evidenence of this I believe.

I'm good with my vote. It'd be nice to have an actual case against which I can defend myself instead of just "Reckoner's play is scummy" followed by votes.

there always was an 'actual' case you just ignored it.

I described my thoughts on LL at the bottom of the last page.

(despite giving my reasons a few posts later)

I like how you think this isn't significant.

just how he thought there was no significant case on him either in my last quoted post.

As I said before, I questioned Reckoner a long time before I put my vote on him about his strange defence of Zoneace. What exactly about my Reckoner vote made you think I was bussing? What were your specific reasons for voting Reckoner?

I really have got a strong sense of bussing myself actually when it came to you LL.

Drench is requesting replacement

Suckage.

What is the scum motivation for trying to move the game forward out of the RVS? How exactly is this jumping the gun? What should jason have waited for to make his vote on zone appropriate in your eyes?

The reasoning wasn't solid, I'm saying. Scum motivation for trying to move the game out of RVS isn't there, but neither is any solid reasoning.

but it was making solid discussion no?

Right, in conclusion

I would like to see more from ZoneAce
Recknoer is my number one suspect for scum hence my vote.
Locke is my no2 suspect and I heavily believe him to be bussing at this point.

[VP Baltar]

Emptyger, who do you think is scum and why? You've been playing this background investigator role for far too long now.

[xRECKONERx]

"So?"

So, my post wasn't just trying to appear town. If he had actually said "I'm very good with my role" like I thought he said, then my method of investigating would have been perfectly applicable.

It really makes no sense to say you're voting me primarily because of that slip up.

[jasonT1981]

"So?"

So, my post wasn't just trying to appear town. If he had actually said "I'm very good with my role" like I thought he said, then my method of investigating would have been perfectly applicable.

It really makes no sense to say you're voting me primarily because of that slip up.

Who are you talking to?

[xRECKONERx]

ZONEACE, I misread the post which prompted me to bring up CDB's wiki entry.

so?

[Santos]

confirmed

Please give me time to catch up.

[Locke Lamora]

So Jason attempts to follow CDB with the bussing suspicion. Interesting. Couple of points I'd like to make about that post:

Speculating over whether I'd take less blame or avoid notice for getting on bandwagons after they've started is pretty pointless. Zoneace, Jason and Reckoner have all done things I considered scummy, so I voted for them. I even continued to push Jason about his vote on Zoneace after others had stopped because I still don't like the tentative way he voted for him and I didn't want Jason to fade into the background because Reckoner was acting so scummy.

I already gave my reasons for my vote on Zoneace... why continue to push when it was made clear?

Because you'd said earlier that you would shift your vote as soon as you found someone more scummy than Zoneace. Your posts indicated to me that you thought Reckoner was scummier yet you hadn't voted for him. I thought it was appropriate to press you as to why.

How did I know there was going to be a Reckoner wagon? That was before he put his vote on Jason and got called out on it; the Reckoner wagon didn't even exist.

I think it was probably sensible for Zoneace to step away from the game for a bit, although having read some meta it seems that his response to the votes was fairly typical of him anyway. I think it's a little convenient that he disappeared just as more votes started to get put on Jason and attention shifted away from him. It makes him a little more scummy in my eyes. I'd like to see some examples of what he thinks is Reckoner trying to appear town instead of just being town.

Indeed, how did you know? But yes, it was sensible for ZA to step away I believe, we all have blow ups from time to time and it would have made matters worse if he did not take time to calm down.

I don't think it is convient he disappeared though.. he needed to cool down, would you rather he continued to post in the mood he was in (No offence ZA)

First of all, I don't even know what you're trying to say at the start. I assume that's supposed to be a joke, unless you think I have a crystal ball. As for Zoneace stepping away, reread it and look at when he disappeared. Had he stepped away several posts earlier, when it was already obvious it was getting overly heated, I would have thought it was a townie. However, he posts about his last scum games, then CDB unvotes Zoneace and Juls votes for you, with Drench also throwing in a FOS. That's why I thought it was convenient; the pressure had shifted to you so he slipped away.

As to the overall suspicion, it's not a case if you just keep saying 'I get the feeling of bussing' without outlining your reasons, other than a bolded vote showing I voted for Reckoner. I'm not going to bother getting into WIFOM-y arguments about whether scum would or would not bus in this situation, so I think it's pretty pointless to address your comments on the subject. CDB explained his theory on it already if you want to copy his reasoning.

CDB: same question as I asked you yesterday before you disappeared.

[ChannelDelibird]

I don't appreciate you using the word "disappeared", LL, which insinuates I am tactically lurking. Not interested in being slandered.

So what about Drench's comment here:

jason is pinging the scumdar.

FoS: Jason

.

No reasons until the next page after being prompted by other players. This is actually almost exactly what Reckoner does, just with a FOS instead of a vote.

You're right, this comment is scummy. I should have picked him up on it. I suspect the FoS, rather than a vote, is what made me miss it.

[Locke Lamora]

I just found it interesting that we were going back and forth fairly regularly, then when I made what I thought (and you have now agreed) is a good point, you didn't respond. What do you think of Jason saying I'm bussing without actually giving much in the way of reasoning?

For those wondering about Drench (CB mentioned it), he's just requested replacement in another game I'm in.

[ChannelDelibird]

It is weird that he says "don't know why, but I get the feeling he's bussing his partner". Could well be newbscum trying to look fashionable by rolling with the Lockebus theory. Makes me a little more reluctant on said theory. At this stage I think I'd still rather lynch Reckoner, but it's the first thing I've seen from Jason that seems noteworthily scummy to me.

[ChannelDelibird]

I just found it interesting that we were going back and forth fairly regularly, then when I made what I thought (and you have now agreed) is a good point, you didn't respond.

I left for lunch. (My last post yesterday was at 12:11pm, Dutch time)

[Porochaz]

xRECKONERx - 5 - ChannelDelibird, VP Baltar, Jason, Locke Lamora, ZONEACE
Jason - 3 - Juls, Jebus, xReckonerx
LockeLamora - 2 - Santos, curiouskarmadog
Jebus - 1 - canadianbovine


Not Voting:
Emptyger

Deadline August 21st 3pm

Noone has requested a prod.

Question posted.

[Porochaz]

Canadianbovine and Jebus have been prodded

[jasonT1981]

When I said about suspecting him off bussing... it is because I suspect Both Locke and Reckoner to be the scum team... therefor I get the feeling LL is bussing his partner.

[Locke Lamora]

So you think I'm bussing because you think I'm scum and you think Reckoner's scum, not because you've seen evidence of bussing like that in CDB's argument?