Wheel of Time Mafia: Rip in the Pattern (GAME OVER)

[SpyreX]

Man ohh man I chose wrong playing as town.

I think I would have nailed the CHAOS win condition. For sho'.

[julienvonwolfe]

Sweet game. My first win, though I think I have to thank my scumbuddies for that.

[Sajin]

Question: Should I have actually got a guilty on spyrex if he did not have the town at heart?

I assumed he never would be able to channel because my research should of hit before the gentling occured (and yes my result was innocent even though I posted 1 guilty and used that as my excuse later on).

[MrBuddyLee]

Am I correct in thinking that I was an unnightkillable townie so long as I chose to sleep in the Stedding instead of in a normal location? Were there any non-OP killing methods besides Isacc's?

Also, am I correct in noting that I was never targeted for nightkill? Pooh. My strategy was to draw nightkills, but with all the Aes Sedai weirdos running around, I think I was last on the list. Plus, I had to blow my cover to bail out Macavity D5, after which I doubt scum would have targeted me for nightkill.

I suspected that no one would lie about their sleeping location, meaning my role was useless other than being able to find the sleeping location of nightkilled people if I got lucky.

[SpyreX]

At no point, due to my gentling, did I not have the town interests at heart.

Now, if I got to continue eventually I wouldn't have but I sure would have called shenanigans if I flipped a guilty.

[Sajin]

But spyrex: My dark research got an innocent on you and its a TWILIGHT ability. Gentling is a DAYBREAK. Explain that

[SpyreX]

I started out town.

I was gentled before anything happened.

Thus, I was always like I said 100% town.

[Sajin]

But did you have the town at heart?

[SpyreX]

Of course. I wasn't taken over by madness at any point so I won with the town.

Now, if I hadn't have been gentled or went all crazy with my secret votes that apparently would have changed (and been awesome)

[Sajin]

I am curious as to what Kinetic thought.

[Yosarian2]

For the most part, the detection ability that nearly every player had was borderline useless.

Not at all. For one thing, it made it impossible for the scum to lie about where they were. And there was a town role that could catch you if you told the truth about where you were. It also forced all black aes sedi to claim aes sedi, and there was a town role (that we had no way of knowing about ) that could catch you if you claimed aes sedi, so that was basically another cop. Plus it's kind of annoying that basically everyone in the game was an aes sedi, and we had no way of knowing that; it was basically just blind luck that the whole scum team wasn't caught in bad fake clams because of that.

I'm glad we managed to pull out a win, my team mates played really well. I'm especally glad of the way me and my team mates managed to make moretoriom look bad, and the pre-planned bus goat did on me (where he "nailed" me with a tracker claim proving I lied; he actually killed someone else that night who just happened to be in the same locaton I was at) worked well too. Still, even with the double kill, this game was weighed pretty heavily against the scum team; town had more then enough information to figure out almost everything, and by the end game, nearly the entire scum team was already lined up in to be lynched. If anything had gone even slightly wrong at any point, we would have been toast.

I disagree a bit here Yos.

You're looking at this from the perspective of knowing exactly what was there, and having no fog of war (and indeed, the scum knew a lot more about what was true and what wasn't).

However the town had a much greater Fog of War to deal with. Each of the Black was given the full Color Role PM, your PM was identical to the other player who had your color in the game.

Additionally the amount of Aes Sedai in the game worked toward your favor in many instances, and the nature of your kills (A MidDirected Kill and a Delayed Kill) put even more mis-information in the town's hands.

The amount of "good" information that town had to deal with was very small (really, the only "cop" in the game was TSS, Seteal and Sajin were supposed to duel with information and misinformation all game, and Sajin's worst case scenario was throwing misinformation on a location Seteal did a true information gathering on). And even TSS's role was intended to be not a "true" cop, as there were about 10 roles which he got a "Not tied to the Pattern" result which didn't rule them out as town.

Eh; with everyone's location going to be know, setael's ability was actually far more effective then a normal cop in the long run. She could catch scum, confirm lots of townies, or both at the same time, her claim was going to be mod-confimred by the information posted in the thread, and the information was going to be publically avalable even if she died without claiming. Sajin's ability was good for some short-term confusion, but in the long term, it doomed him; he had to claim it, because the detections forced us all to tell the truth, and once he did the town was eventually going to figure it out. Plus, since all scum had to claim aes sedi, TSS's abilily basically was another whole cop, so long as it he only targeted people who claimed aes sedi (which was inevitably going to be almost everyone.)

If we hadn't won RIGHT when we did, and if things hadn't gone JUST right for us all game, we'd have had almost no chance at all, really. Nearly the entire scumgroup had already been caught due to no fault of their own but due to pro-town role information; Goat was the only one who hadn't, and if he kept killing, that was going to be just a matter of time anyway. There were some things that would delay the town from solving the situation, but they were only short term. If the town had had any more chances, any more days, or if a scum had been killed by the SK early on, or if one scum had made one more tiny mistake and gotten lynched a day earlier or anything, scum would have had absolutly no chance at all.

Honestly, the town has so much information, and the scum had almost none. We didn't even know who our scum partners were, which was a bit part of the reason Flay got lynched. We didn't have enough infromation to know what lie or what truth we would randomally get smited for saying.

All that being said, it was a neat game, Kinetic. I do like complicated games, and I'm impressed you managed to keep everything streight with so many different power roles and interactions without any major modding errors; I'm not sure I would have been able to do that on my own, that was some high quality modding there. Also, while it was heavily imbalanced in favor of the town, at least the game wasn't completly broken, which is already an achievement in a game this complicated.

[Sajin]

I agree that seteals ability could of been game breaking used every day and us not catching it till day 3-4. I am glad I got Seteal to believe I was town and that she was naive.

If it had been used before in other locations I would of had to play very differently to put a stop to it early.


Then again the setup was balanced around more kills or a conversion happening. I think if we would of actually gotten use out of our forsaken rather then them basically being goons we would of not been so desperate for a misslynch or 2.

With more kills, that means less investigations, which means more informational roles could be fine.

[Kinetic]

For the most part, the detection ability that nearly every player had was borderline useless.

Not at all. For one thing, it made it impossible for the scum to lie about where they were. And there was a town role that could catch you if you told the truth about where you were. It also forced all black aes sedi to claim aes sedi, and there was a town role (that we had no way of knowing about ) that could catch you if you claimed aes sedi, so that was basically another cop. Plus it's kind of annoying that basically everyone in the game was an aes sedi, and we had no way of knowing that; it was basically just blind luck that the whole scum team wasn't caught in bad fake clams because of that.

I'm glad we managed to pull out a win, my team mates played really well. I'm especally glad of the way me and my team mates managed to make moretoriom look bad, and the pre-planned bus goat did on me (where he "nailed" me with a tracker claim proving I lied; he actually killed someone else that night who just happened to be in the same locaton I was at) worked well too. Still, even with the double kill, this game was weighed pretty heavily against the scum team; town had more then enough information to figure out almost everything, and by the end game, nearly the entire scum team was already lined up in to be lynched. If anything had gone even slightly wrong at any point, we would have been toast.

I disagree a bit here Yos.

You're looking at this from the perspective of knowing exactly what was there, and having no fog of war (and indeed, the scum knew a lot more about what was true and what wasn't).

However the town had a much greater Fog of War to deal with. Each of the Black was given the full Color Role PM, your PM was identical to the other player who had your color in the game.

Additionally the amount of Aes Sedai in the game worked toward your favor in many instances, and the nature of your kills (A MidDirected Kill and a Delayed Kill) put even more mis-information in the town's hands.

The amount of "good" information that town had to deal with was very small (really, the only "cop" in the game was TSS, Seteal and Sajin were supposed to duel with information and misinformation all game, and Sajin's worst case scenario was throwing misinformation on a location Seteal did a true information gathering on). And even TSS's role was intended to be not a "true" cop, as there were about 10 roles which he got a "Not tied to the Pattern" result which didn't rule them out as town.

Eh; with everyone's location going to be know, setael's ability was actually far more effective then a normal cop in the long run. She could catch scum, confirm lots of townies, or both at the same time, her claim was going to be mod-confimred by the information posted in the thread, and the information was going to be publically avalable even if she died without claiming. Sajin's ability was good for some short-term confusion, but in the long term, it doomed him; he had to claim it, because the detections forced us all to tell the truth, and once he did the town was eventually going to figure it out. Plus, since all scum had to claim aes sedi, TSS's abilily basically was another whole cop, so long as it he only targeted people who claimed aes sedi (which was inevitably going to be almost everyone.)

Seteal's ability was a little more powerful than I intended, I will admit that much. I intended Sajin's to counter balance, and it did, but it wasn't perfect.

As for TSS, I maintain that while it was strong it wasn't imbalanced, and he was the only true "cop" like role.

If we hadn't won RIGHT when we did, and if things hadn't gone JUST right for us all game, we'd have had almost no chance at all, really. Nearly the entire scumgroup had already been caught due to no fault of their own but due to pro-town role information; Goat was the only one who hadn't, and if he kept killing, that was going to be just a matter of time anyway. There were some things that would delay the town from solving the situation, but they were only short term. If the town had had any more chances, any more days, or if a scum had been killed by the SK early on, or if one scum had made one more tiny mistake and gotten lynched a day earlier or anything, scum would have had absolutly no chance at all.

I dispute this, because the scum lost two of their most powerful roles VERY early and with a little luck still pulled off the win. If Flay or Fabian survived a little longer it would have been a much different game and maybe balanced a little to far for scum.

Scum HAD to be kept a little off balance because of that in the early game.

Honestly, the town has so much information, and the scum had almost none. We didn't even know who our scum partners were, which was a bit part of the reason Flay got lynched. We didn't have enough infromation to know what lie or what truth we would randomally get smited for saying.

The forsaken had to be hidden from the Black or else a Black Ajeh could just tell their Forsaken who the other one was. The Forsaken could ONLY win through their Survivor Win Condition while the other was alive 9and ironically, since they both died, they both "won"), so it was a necessity to keep the Forsaken hidden. Flay could have told you immediately who he was and not risked the Bus you place on him, that was his call.

As for lying, I could have been a little more clear on what I expected (and would have punished) for lying, but I was trying to keep it vague because in truth I didn't want it to be a MAJOR part of the game.

All that being said, it was a neat game, Kinetic. I do like complicated games, and I'm impressed you managed to keep everything streight with so many different power roles and interactions without any major modding errors; I'm not sure I would have been able to do that on my own, that was some high quality modding there. Also, while it was heavily imbalanced in favor of the town, at least the game wasn't completly broken, which is already an achievement in a game this complicated.

Ty, it was tough sometimes I'll have to get all the targets out eventually, they're all in spreadsheets.

It was killer keeping them all together and even I missed a detect here and there (which I tried to fix as soon as I found them).

[Yosarian2]

As for lying, I could have been a little more clear on what I expected (and would have punished) for lying, but I was trying to keep it vague because in truth I didn't want it to be a MAJOR part of the game.

Eh, I didn't mean that. I meant that, for example, if we lied about our location, we'd have gotten caught and lynched because of all the detection roles, and we didn't know that at the start of the game. If we lied about having the one power, we'd have gotten lynched, and we didn't know that. If we'd admitted we had the one power but lied about being aes sedi (like that "village wisdom" claim from early in the game), we'd have gotten lynched for flavor reasons once there was a mass claim (since every pro-town role with the one power was aes sedi), and again, we had no way of knowing that. And yet, we could also get lynched for telling the truth about our location (Because of Sajin), or for telling the truth and claiming aes sedi (because of TSS). Basically, there were a lot of little ways we could have screwed ourselves over when it came to claiming, and we didn't have enough information to avoid any of them, except through blind luck.

[Yosarian2]

Ty, it was tough sometimes I'll have to get all the targets out eventually, they're all in spreadsheets.

It was killer keeping them all together and even I missed a detect here and there (which I tried to fix as soon as I found them).

(nods) Yeah; I've never modded a game with night actions anywhere near this complicated, but still I know just how easy it is to make a modding error even in a normal game. The fact that you never made any crucial, game-changing mod errors (like, say, letting a kill go through that should have been role-blocked, or something) is a pretty big accomplishment in a game like this.

[Slicey]

I'm glad I died when I did because I had no idea what the fuck was going on. I'm still confused on exactly how many scum groups there actually were. >_> Maybe once I read all the role PM's I'll understand, but really, I don't have any idea who killed who and how. >____>

BTW, I think props should go to me for catching Flay and JVW. >_> I called him scum from the very beginning.

Thanks Kinetic for modding an awesome and confusing as hell game. I actually started reading the WoT books because of this. ^_^ I just finished Eye of the World.

[Kinetic]

There was technically one scum group, but the Forsaken in that group has competing win conditions, therefore there was sort of two mafias that shared members.

Then there was a SK, and a couple neutral/chaos roles.

[Slicey]

BTW, I was yelling at Kinetic the entire game to modkill/warn Benmage because he was being such a huge prick. Thanks to him town won the game IMHO.

I thought the scum was JVW, Yos, Benmage and Mort. So I got two out of four. >_> Goat did a real good job this game, I think he should be MVP. Sajin did great as well.

[Kinetic]

Ty, it was tough sometimes I'll have to get all the targets out eventually, they're all in spreadsheets.

It was killer keeping them all together and even I missed a detect here and there (which I tried to fix as soon as I found them).

(nods) Yeah; I've never modded a game with night actions anywhere near this complicated, but still I know just how easy it is to make a modding error even in a normal game. The fact that you never made any crucial, game-changing mod errors (like, say, letting a kill go through that should have been role-blocked, or something) is a pretty big accomplishment in a game like this.

Well there were a few reasons for the complicated night action set up (and why lynch reveals were delayed until after actions finished), and most of that was due to Balefire, since Balefire used correctly could stop a lynch.

Additionally, Twilight actions were all "set up" actions. Roleblocks, Motivations, Sajin's Dark Research, all things where I'd need to send a response pretty quickly so I could get an additional response before the night ended.

[MacavityLock]

Could Balefire Unlynch someone? For example, let's say I hammered Sajin on Day 1. On Night 2, I get Balefired. Would that have brought Sajin back from the dead, since I never existed to hammer him originally?

Or, re-reading, I guess it doesn't go back that far. But what if I never voted on Day 2 and my last vote was the Day 1 hammer? Or if I was prevented from voting by the White Ajah ability?

[Setael]

Some cop! Slept through the first night and then "distracted" by a hooker. (Curious what kind of hooker an Aes Sedai would go for) and then when I finally get a result Sajin is all up in my business. I had no way of knowing which note was mine.

I guess I can see where my role could have been useful, but it sure didn't work out that way. It was certainly not Sajin that convinced me I was naive, nor was I even convinced of that. All I was convinced of was that the 2 contradicting notes didn't make sense. I did not consider the possibility (because imo it rendered my role useless) that scum would receive a pm with the notice when I did not, let alone be able to change it before it was posted.

This game made me realize I have to quit mafia, which I'm bummed about. Getting speed lynched while V/LA over July 4th weekend after replacing into a game that took me WAY too long to read made me rethink how I'm spending my time. Goodbye forever, scummers!

It was a fun game (especially while faraday was alive). I don't know how you find the time, kinetic. GG all.

[Kinetic]

Could Balefire Unlynch someone? For example, let's say I hammered Sajin on Day 1. On Night 2, I get Balefired. Would that have brought Sajin back from the dead, since I never existed to hammer him originally?

Or, re-reading, I guess it doesn't go back that far. But what if I never voted on Day 2 and my last vote was the Day 1 hammer? Or if I was prevented from voting by the White Ajah ability?

No, it would have only taken the last vote of the previous day. So no double back lynchs, once the lynch was revealed it was permanent.

[Yosarian2]

This game made me realize I have to quit mafia, which I'm bummed about. Getting speed lynched while V/LA over July 4th weekend after replacing into a game that took me WAY too long to read made me rethink how I'm spending my time. Goodbye forever, scummers!

Sorry to hear that, Setael.

I'm sure that must really suck. 's certanly not how it usually goes, though.

Anyway, I think that has more to do with how people having to be replaced in games, and the effects of that, sucks, rather then mafia itself.

[Sajin]

Some cop! Slept through the first night and then "distracted" by a hooker. (Curious what kind of hooker an Aes Sedai would go for) and then when I finally get a result Sajin is all up in my business. I had no way of knowing which note was mine.

I guess I can see where my role could have been useful, but it sure didn't work out that way. It was certainly not Sajin that convinced me I was naive, nor was I even convinced of that. All I was convinced of was that the 2 contradicting notes didn't make sense. I did not consider the possibility (because imo it rendered my role useless) that scum would receive a pm with the notice when I did not, let alone be able to change it before it was posted.

This game made me realize I have to quit mafia, which I'm bummed about. Getting speed lynched while V/LA over July 4th weekend after replacing into a game that took me WAY too long to read made me rethink how I'm spending my time. Goodbye forever, scummers!

It was a fun game (especially while faraday was alive). I don't know how you find the time, kinetic. GG all.

><

GL to you! Sorry about the QL over the holiday.

[Slicey]

BTW, I was yelling at Kinetic the entire game to modkill/warn Benmage because he was being such a huge prick. Thanks to him town won the game IMHO.

durr that should be lost the game. >_>

So Kinetic, Fabian and Flay were a sorta separate scum team?