Newbie 816 - Game over!

[zwetschenwasser]

im, the problem is not your experience, it's just the way you're coming across in your posts. I'm starting to find you genuinely scummy as you continue to insist that your "teaching points" were helpful and lucid, and now are acting sarcastically and defensively when more people point out the same thing.

[imkingdavid]

Ok, sorry for the sarcasm. It's not helping me at all, nor is it helping us as a town. I'll try and calm down. It's just that I tried to post my opinion on the game and Adel attacked me for it. Despite my explanation of my opinion, he continued in a very "I'm right because I have more experience and am an IC, etc." attitude that got me aggravated, and my increasingly emotional/sarcastic responses probably did nothing to help the situation. And of course, our argument distracted and detracted from the rest of the players' ability to look for scum, as well as allowed the scum to potentially be sitting back and laughing while we attack each other, which is never good.

Anyway, what was your aim from your post when you said, "as you continue to insist that your "teaching points" were helpful and lucid". I cannot see any purpose for that line except to elicit an emotional response from me, which you would have then tacked on to your case against me.
In response to that line, all I will say is that my intention behind my teaching points was to do just that: teach and try to give newbie players 1) a way to play 2) a reason behind playing that way. I was not trying to necessarily force my opinion on anyone, and as I have said numerously, I would have been more than willing to rethink my opinion if someone provided a solid counter-argument.

For the record, it was not my intention through my posts to come across as arrogant or haughty, but it seems that multiple people think that I have.
However, it probably turned to sound more like arrogance after Adel continued badgering me about my opinion without providing any counter evidence.

In any case, I'm going on V/LA in a few hours and when I'll get back, I'll try to be a bit more toned down and hold me temper. Sorry for getting this off on the wrong foot; that was not my intention at all.

Even though you are convinced I am scum, I encourage you (while not necessarily stopping looking at me) to look at others as well and make a decision then.

[Manzcar]

Princess, welcome to the game.

Princess said

Can I ask everyone what is your experience of mafia? I would just like to see how new people really are.

Before coming to this site I played some with friends on another site. They were nothing as serious or hard-core as what is played here. They were mostly just joke around games, which didn’t serve me well at the start of my first game here. I have completed one newbie game (802) and have currently replaced into 3 other newbie games (809, 814, 816). I am still learning a lot, but I like it.


@HFitz you said a few days ago that you were wading through the thread again. What are your thoughts on possible suspects? You seem to be lurking and I am unsure about you right now. You stated that you were going to make an effort to be more vocal, but have not.

V/LA Friday August 7th through Sunday August 9th

I will have my I-Phone with me so I will be able to contribute but I will be busy so it will be sporadic at best.

[ElectricBadger]

If you were to find me just arrogant, who would you see as scum? If you find me scum (since Adel seemed to have wanted it this way) who would you think might be my partner?

After arguing that we shouldn't be looking for such a thing, I find this an interesting question. Asking it seems to invalidate your previous assertions. Did you have some other purpose in posting it?

Ok, sorry for the sarcasm. It's not helping me at all, nor is it helping us as a town. I'll try and calm down. It's just that I tried to post my opinion on the game and Adel attacked me for it.

This is to be expected, I think, when making broad and controversial statements. Surely you expected some response? I don't agree with Adel's opinions entirely either, but it was unsurprising that someone stepped up to confront you. I'm personally unsure whether that was your intent.

im, the problem is not your experience, it's just the way you're coming across in your posts. I'm starting to find you genuinely scummy

Agreed. The barrage of instructions of how to play are taking on a leading tone which I dislike, and which would provide a good cover for mafia. Of deeper concern to me, though, is that while he's talked a lot there's almost no attempt to scum hunt spread through it; just opinion and arguing with Adel until he launched a set of flailing questions, none of which were particularly insightful.

I cannot really defend pancakes actions as they didn't really post much apart from no lynch and have come to the conclusion that they must have been new and realised that this wasn't for them, so instead of defending their vote they decided just to leave.

Reasonable, and my read as well. I don't think No Lynches are a scum tell in the RVS of newbie games; it's just when they persist in them for no reason that I find it scummy. IMO, you're beginning on a pretty blank slate.

As for experience, I've played a couple games elsewhere and I'm running one on another site, which is very casual, and this is my 3rd game here.

[zwetschenwasser]

I agree with Badger.

[imkingdavid]

If you were to find me just arrogant, who would you see as scum? If you find me scum (since Adel seemed to have wanted it this way) who would you think might be my partner?

After arguing that we shouldn't be looking for such a thing, I find this an interesting question. Asking it seems to invalidate your previous assertions. Did you have some other purpose in posting it?

You'll note that I specified that I was only doing this because popular opinion was for it, and I figured they would do it anyway, so I might as well get their thoughts on the matter. I still don't think that it helps town. Although neither does their tunneling me.

Ok, sorry for the sarcasm. It's not helping me at all, nor is it helping us as a town. I'll try and calm down. It's just that I tried to post my opinion on the game and Adel attacked me for it.

This is to be expected, I think, when making broad and controversial statements. Surely you expected some response? I don't agree with Adel's opinions entirely either, but it was unsurprising that someone stepped up to confront you. I'm personally unsure whether that was your intent.

It wasn't that I was not suspecting some response, it's that I wasn't expecting Adel to tunnel me continuously after I had already provided reasoning. I gave my opinion and my reasoning and he continued showing me just how stupid my opinion must be (even though it still makes perfect sense in my head). Just for the record, we've been going on like this for numerous pages, but no one has actually countered my opinion, other than saying that I am arrogant. If you don't agree with me, that's fine, but don't personally attack me. Attack my idea. That's perfectly fine.

im, the problem is not your experience, it's just the way you're coming across in your posts. I'm starting to find you genuinely scummy

Agreed. The barrage of instructions of how to play are taking on a leading tone which I dislike, and which would provide a good cover for mafia. Of deeper concern to me, though, is that while he's talked a lot there's almost no attempt to scum hunt spread through it; just opinion and arguing with Adel until he launched a set of flailing questions, none of which were particularly insightful.

I haven't had much of a chance to scum hunt recently because:
1) V/LA (previous and upcoming)
2) Adel, zwet and princess continuing to tunnel me
3) Real life stuff

[imkingdavid]

btw, I'm leaving, so I'll see you guys when I get back. Happy scumhunting.

[ElectricBadger]

You'll note that I specified that I was only doing this because popular opinion was for it, and I figured they would do it anyway, so I might as well get their thoughts on the matter. I still don't think that it helps town. Although neither does their tunneling me.

I'm understanding that you're doing something you believe is anti-town because others are pressuring you: is that interpretation correct?

Just for the record, we've been going on like this for numerous pages, but no one has actually countered my opinion

Ignoring any potential evidence or lead is unproductive, and thus anti-town. All evidence must be considered in proper perspective, however, and with correct logic, which sounds like the specific problem your previous game had. At a guess, the scum in that game ensured that happened; which is why it's important for all townies to consider everything critically.

I haven't had much of a chance to scum hunt recently because:
1) V/LA (previous and upcoming)
2) Adel, zwet and princess continuing to tunnel me
3) Real life stuff

Judging by the overall quantity of your posting, I disagree. You are merely sidetracked; the question is whether it's intentional or not.

I agree with Badger.

Regarding what?

[dramonic]

Vote: IKD

baaaaaacktracking on his own opinion and doing stuff he himself deems anti-town.

[zwetschenwasser]

IKD, you can't say that just because right now we are suspicious of you that we're tunneling, per ce, as tunneling is usually considered scummy. Can you give us a list of suspicions?

[purple princess]

So now we get down to it. If I had an IC/SE tag, would my "arrogance" turn into being helpful? Where do you draw the line? Are you saying that everyone should try to be the least helpful they can when they don't have an IC/SE tag? I can do that if you like.

No I would still think you are arrogant even with an IC/SE tag, from peoples replies from my question so far I see that no one is completley new, so your teaching points didn't really help anyone apart from me thinking you may be scum.

In any case, I'm going on V/LA in a few hours and when I'll get back, I'll try to be a bit more toned down and hold me temper.

Great maybe we can get on with finding scum then!

Still no word from havingfitz

vote havingfitz

I would like to hear what he has to say on this game. I consider his lack of envolvement in this game a bit scummy, sure he has posted enough not to look like he is lurking, but he says nothing in his posts that contribute anything to the game, and this makes me very suspiscious of him.

[havingfitz]

OK...still wouldn't know what a good scumtell would be if someone posted one in bold red letters...but as there hasn't been a lot to work on in this game, and several players have already bailed/been replaced, I agree with the train of thought that a no-lynch is a wasted opportunity and gives mafia a free pass to get rid of one of us. So intially I view NL support as a tell. Which is why I currently have my vote on pancakes. Along those lines...anyone opposed to a NL is a bit un-scummy IMO [EB, Dramonic, Adel...etc]. For now. That said...I would assume someone experienced at Mafia...and being scum...would know to not raise red flags and would avoid supporting a NL. Pancakes was very new to the site (but new to mafia???) so perhaps he was going for the easy NL option. Kulko had joined very recently as well and intially went for NL but changed his mind after some pressure. I've learned that being the vote to get someone too close to a lynch is a bad thing (even if I honestly am suspicious of the person I'm voting for vice a random vote). TF appeared to be a bit peculiar and voting to have pancakes at L-1 after I was scolded for it seems a bit fishy. So pancakes and TF are my two main suspicions for now (or whomever they were replaced by).

[purple princess]

If you were to find me just arrogant, who would you see as scum? If you find me scum (since Adel seemed to have wanted it this way) who would you think might be my partner?

I don't see why you are asking this, when you were very adamant not to answer this when adel asked you the same sort of question?

So that is why you at least wait until the first scum is gone to look for links between two people. In my last game, town lost because they focussed on who might be linked.

And I don't see why we are trying to look for partners at this point. As I showed in my second post, there is very little chance of being correct until we lynch one scum.

I mean... I've repeatedly stated that it DOES NOT help town IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM to attempt to pair people. Did you miss my post? If you saw it, what are your thoughts about it?

So, pairing people up as scum didn't work in favour of town in your last game, so why are you asking me then?

I'm sorry, I know I have just voted for havingfitz for lack of posts but I feel ikd is far more scummy at this point, not sure what the vote count is at the moment so will wait before I think about changing my vote, I guess I will have to wait a while for a reply from ikd aswel

[ElectricBadger]

I'm growing more inclined towards IKD as well, but I want to hear from TF's replacement before moving ahead with anything.

[zwetschenwasser]

Votecount please

[dramonic]

I'm still 100% supporting a Tfrench lynch

[zwetschenwasser]

no

[dramonic]

I mean if the case pops up, I think his reputting at l-1 was scummy as hell.

[ElectricBadger]

I mean if the case pops up, I think his reputting at l-1 was scummy as hell.

Are you willing to lynch him based on that alone, or do you have other reasons? Do you see any reason a townie would have done that?

[dramonic]

Do I even need other reasons? We had just told pancake it was scummy and anti-town.

[Manzcar]

HFitz - There is no other evidence that can support a vote on pancakes / princess other than his no lynch vote. He had three posts two of which were his no lynch vote. I just don't see the logic in you wanting to keep your vote on pancakes / princess. would you feel comfortable lynching princess on pancakes no lynch vote?

[purple princess]

That said...I would assume someone experienced at Mafia...and being scum...would know to not raise red flags and would avoid supporting a NL. Pancakes was very new to the site (but new to mafia???)

Well I agree NL is a very newbie move, but you question that pankcakes may not have been new to the game mafia in general, what about yourself? you keep reiterating that you are new, are you using the fact you are new not to make any valuable comments on this game as it may make you look like scum?

@ havinfitz If you are as newas you say you are, I would like to know if you have found ikd's teaching points usefull to yourself? Do you think he has added some valualble points to this game?

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

4 Days to Deadline

Vote Count

purple princess - 2 (havingfitz, tfrench)

dramonic - 1 (zwetschenwasser)
Manzcar - 1 (ElectricBadger)
imkingdavid - 1 (dramonic)
havingfitz - 1 (purple princess)

No Lynch - 1 (Manzcar)

Not Voting - 2 (Cirdua, imkingdavid)

5 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Tuesday, August 11 (Eastern, GMT - 4).

[Manzcar]

Mod i unvoted in post 151

[havingfitz]

OK…lots more digesting of information.



After further review…I have backed off my suspicions of pancakes. While I think his/her desire for NL was as good a tell as any that early in the game…apparently as was my putting him at L-1…I think TF’s peculiar play and subsequent placing of pancakes at L-1 after I was denounced for it is very suspicious. I am looking forward to see how TF’s replacement acts and am leaning towards TF now. I also think Adel //now Zw// is suspicious due to 1.) his/her IMO hasty suspicions of me (based on very few posts and what was for me at the time the unknown sin of putting someone at L-1

), 2) creating several scum pair combos placing suspicion on 3 people and deflecting from himself along with his confusing questions asked of IKD, 3) his subsequent conduct with IKD to include voting him (which I now understand is part of the game and geared towards getting a reaction [or lynch]). Last…I think EB is just slightly fishy due to the voting he has been involved in that has already been detailed by others…though I need to look over his votes/posts more closely to feel better about my suspicions towards him.

@ Manzcar – no…for reasons mentioned earlier in this post.

@ PP – This is the first time I have ever played mafia. My only exposure to the game has been an obsessed 13 yr old son who can not get enough of it and tries to discuss his mafia games in detail...though until I signed on here I wasn't the most attentive listener I signed up in here at his request to give the game a try and while I had hoped to play in a game with him, much to his frustration we weren’t allowed to be in the same game. In hindsight that is probably best. And to answer your question about IKD...I am finding his 'teachings' good food for thought. Several people have given 'lessons' throughout the posts and I for one appreciate all of them...but IKD has been a little more vocal...not that I find that a bad thing.

Unvote

for now