Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia. Game over!

[Vi]

If Ectomancer were not the Godfather...

At the time I would have killed B&B on autopilot, confirmed Townie and so forth.

With what I know now... I guess it would have had to have been Elmo, as it wouldn't have implicated Troll and it wouldn't have put ME into Prime Suspectville considering B&B's high opinion of Elmo.

If Troll were not sharp enough to think of B&B as not an automatic kill, B&B would have been the best kill by far.

[Zorblag]

Yeah, if Ectomancer no had been the godfather then any scum other than BridgesAndBaloons would be wise to leave BridgesAndBaloons and Troll in the game. Troll would have had a very hard time lynching others at that point (though Troll would have tried to get a conversation going before any votes to try to verify the assumptions Troll would have been working with.)

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[DrippingGoofball]

Who is scum?

Vi or Ectomancer?

Well it was both...

[Zorblag]

*grins* Troll tried to tell you it no was Troll. Of course Troll tried to tell you it was DrippingGoofball as well. The moral probably be to listen to Troll about half the time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Elmo]

I thought Troll was somewhere between minorly scummy and okayish through the game, better as it went on. And, irritatingly, I thought he was pretty townish circa day 4. I just can't see any reason to vote Vi instead. Still can't. I figured that if it was Vi, there was no way we'd win and we might as well get it over with, because we'd need the time in the more likely case of TrollScum. (I dislike the fact 3p LyLo is deadlined for 9 days, fwiw.) It's possible that's defeatist, but I can't really see why it's incorrect.

Vi: I don't get what you mean by "all the wrong places at all the right times".. I also thought I was pretty crappy day 1, I don't know what you mean by 'dangerous'. I 'unno, first lost game in a long time where I can't point to anything specific I feel I did wrong.

Thanks for modding, caf. I'm sorry I had the drama that I did, thanks for putting up with that.

[Zorblag]

So out of curiosity, was there anything Troll could have done in days four or five to change Elmo's mind about the vote (taking into account Vi's play being what it was)?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Vi]

@Elmo: As to the first part: Basically, I could have pinned you down under a giant wall of circumstantial evidence if it came down to it.

As to the second part: One of the few points that stuck out to me from D1 was

Elmo's statement calling both SpyreX and Artem Town is interesting, because with that he has effectively written off half the player list as notScum. This is not a move I would expect from scum at all because of how much it shortens Elmo's list of desired mis/lynches.

You should have kept this sort of thing up.

I'm really starting to feel like I'm pouring salt into wounds. I should probably stop posting ITT.

[Vi]

Also, thank you for the nomination.

[Elmo]

I doubt it. But then I never thought you were hugely scummy. I've been real ill for about 10 days now, so it's possible I'm not thinking it through as well as I could be. But that's life... I just don't, objectively, see how anyone is not voting Troll in that spot. I mean, no-one came up with the idea of it being a bus at any point. That might've helped from someone, but it's still hella unlikely, as far as I can see.

[Elmo]

As to the first part: Basically, I could have pinned you down under a giant wall of circumstantial evidence if it came down to it.

Like.. what?

I don't see what you quoted there as at all helpful. How would doing stuff like that help at all?

Personally, I'm not feeling like it's rubbing anything in, I'm just curious to see how I coulda improved. If anything, I'd prefer you kept posting.

[Zorblag]

Oh yeah, one more thing about Elmo in day one. Him came up with scum and town lists that included neither of Adel nor Ectomancer. Troll thought that was pretty unlikely to be something that scum would try to pull that early. Had there been more discussion in the final day Troll would have brought that up.

Anyhow, if there was nothing Troll could have done to look townier than Vi to Elmo the last couple days of the game then Troll no can have any regrets in particular about that part of Troll's end game play. Well played Vi be all Troll can say.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Vi]

I had the wallpost ready, but I closed that tab after caf locked the topic. Basically, waffling aboot in the background as long as possible, blatantly or quasi-defending Adel throughout D2 with objections that still mystify me, making your suspicion of Adel look like appeasement to me and s-lully, only hammering Ectomancer when you saw that nobody else was going to do anything, labeling Ectomancer as vagueTown or vagueScum in your D1/D2 vote counts when you hadn't actually said anything substantial about him (Cat Mafia 4 lyfe yo), etc.

Standard scumplay is reactionary. Calling half the game Town is NOT reactionary. Hence I saw that line as pro-Town. Proactiveness is an excellent crowd pleaser and a moderately strong Town-tell (but don't tell anyone).

I noticed that in your second post of the game you said you were sick. How long have you been ill, Elmo?
Also and off the wall, I like Sinfest's art style so you win points for your avvy ^.^

[Elmo]

(shrug) I guess it's more to do with my view on bussing than anything. I used to have an extreme viewpoint to the extent I'd never give anyone town credit for getting scum lynched. I guess it's possible I swung back too far the other way, but it's a pretty ballsy place to bus. I guess you can make the argument that voting Troll here wins more games over the long run, but it seems kind of a cop-out to me.

I dunno which points you thought I waffled in the background. On Adel, I was pretty careful not to directly defend him, except in I think one place very early on. Don't suppose it'll come as any surprise that I didn't think his play was at all scummy, and hence you bussing was pretty much entirely out of the blue. I gave what I thought was a pretty clear reason for suspecting Adel.. I figure I said I would go equally between Troll and Ecto quite clearly (heh), I don't think letting B&B post his thoughts like I did should be a big deal. Ecto was absent and did very little day 1, a bit more day 2, I think, I'da thought not having a strong read on him would be understandable.

I 'unno, I don't think any of that is objectively bad. I could be wrong, I think you're the only one who perceived my stance on Adel as defending him, and I'd definitely think Troll would understand my viewpoint there. Some things get more airtime than they objectively deserve, but none of that looks particularly worrying to me; I guess that's expected otherwise I wouldn't have allowed it in the first place, tho. (shrug)

[Herodotus]

I was following the game every few days after I died. Congrats to the scumteam. Vi probably would have had me fooled from day 2 until the endgame.

[Ectomancer]

Thanks for the thoughts Zorblag. As real life would have it, crisis (that Im deciding to turn into opportunity) has postponed my school until January. Going to take the time to have a larger nest egg saved up beforehand. I may join a game or find a partner(s) for a Hydra in the next couple weeks and get a single game going. It would be fun with any of the players from this game.

Thanks to Adel for muddying the waters.
Thanks to Vi for looking townie.
Thanks to Zorblag for giving me a good "buddy".
Thanks to Elmo for picking the wrong scum.
Thanks to Porkens for claiming early.
Thanks to Spring for posting all 3 scum in 1 post and replacing out.
Thanks to Spyrex for killing town with his 1-shot
Thanks to Hero for obligingly going down day 1
Thanks to Tajo for getting it wrong but playing hard anyhow.
Thanks to Artem for blocking the Vig bullet
Thanks to Korts for trying.
Thanks to DGB for helping misdirect the town.
Thanks to Gurgi for helping to lend moral support to a SpringLully lynch
Thanks to Bab for replacing into many pages and for helping to sully Troll's reputation when it needed it.
Thanks of course to our wonderful mod caf19.

But seriously, thank you all for the game.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

DGB:

All the players in this game love you and want you to stay. Don't retire!

[populartajo]

GG scum, really killing me night 1 was a sad day for me. After Hero dying, I had Adel pegged as obvscum. Ecto became scummier as the game progressed. But congrats Vi in going into my scumdar as late as this last day.

Also, Elmo, I had memories of NG499, you play an awesome early game, but then you decrease your play in late stages. Im not sure if I had voted Troll that fast but I know you are sick, so take care buddy.

I just wish no one would retire, woul love to play once again with you all. That means DGB and Adel. I already miss you.

Thx caf for modding this. GG all.

[BridgesAndBaloons]

So I think this setup was balanced, but I do not like the deadline style.

Mod

, i would love for you to rethink the method of your deadlines. 9 days for a LYLO last day is very not fun. If they had wanted to discuss and think first (if I was alive, definitely) 9 days is not nearly enough.

I'm of the oppinion that deadlines are there to help the game when it's on low activity or when the day has been too long. The deadlines shouldn't really be a major part of the game. Your deadlines were. Especially the last deadlines really impacted the game and made us rush to finish.

Do you have any thoughts on scum or town play? Individual MVPs? Funny endgame remarks?

[Vi]

I actually disagree. Deadlines are necessary to prod people along when the game slows down like it did after D2, and it's just easier to always have them there instead of imposing them subjectively. 9 days for LyLo is plenty as long as people can post every day. As for deadlines not being a major part of the game... well, take a look at a certain ongoing game~

Likewise I disagree with the game being balanced for reasons I mentioned in the QT.

[Zorblag]

Troll just remembered a dream Troll had sometime during day two. It involved the players in this game though instead of playing mafia we were playing Illumianti (the Steve Jackson game; it must have been with the Y2K expansion.) Troll no remembers that much of it now but Adel (who was a tall red-haired guy with a goatee in his early twenties for some reason) was sitting to Troll's right. Him was meticulously keeping track of all the cards people were drawing. Troll tried to explain that this didn't make any sense or help him unless him could somehow keep track of the special cards people got but that him no would know what them were. Him said that him knew that and yet that it still had value. On Troll's next turn Troll (who was playing the some crazy combination of the Network and the Church of the SubGenius) drew the first two special cards that had come up during the game and all of a sudden Troll saw what it was Adel was up to. After Troll woke up Troll no could figure out what Troll's realization was.

Also, in that dream the rest of you were pretty bad at building up your power structures in Illuminati.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Elmo]

I dreamed that someone asked me who we were lynching, that I replied DGB, then I saw the lynch scene:

DrippingGoofBall

,

Vanilla Townie

, Lynched Day 3, and I said "Yeah, I know she's town. Wait, what?" and woke up. That was what prompted my last minute reread / kerfuffle. I think on some level I knew she'd come up town, but wasn't willing to stick my neck out. (In retrospect, considering I woulda hopped onto TrollTown.. I 'unno, Ecto was always higher on my list than Troll, though.)

Also, Elmo, I had memories of NG499, you play an awesome early game, but then you decrease your play in late stages. Im not sure if I had voted Troll that fast but I know you are sick, so take care buddy.

Yea, I dunno why I do that but I've noticed it happen a couple times, mostly when I get what I feel is a good thing going, but then I can get discouraged if it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. I especially hate having to repeat myself or feeling like people aren't listening. Here specifically, I put a load of time & energy into trying to save Artem & SpyreX, and then got a bit put out when Artem turned up dead and SpyreX immediately claimed. I don't fully understand it, though. Then we had the Adel thing, which annoyed me because I couldn't reasonably take a stance either way; it still mystifies me why Adel would play like that, but whatever. Why'd you think Adel was obvScum? (Also, ta, I'm mostly better now. )

I still have no idea why my D1 play was perceived as good. I don't think anything I did made the town more likely to win.. actually thought D2 was probably better. I'm really curious about this

Think the balance favours town a bit, but I could see an argument that it's balanced 'cuz vig and RB are quite high variance. Guess it depends if you think the average vig helps the town out. I do gotta say we got the absolute minimum out of the power roles here, and it was good for ~3 confirmed innocents. But yea, I hate cops, a lot.

[Elmo]

As to the first part: Basically, I could have pinned you down under a giant wall of circumstantial evidence if it came down to it.

Thinking about it, part of this may have been simply because I thought you were town and wasn't playing with that endgame in mind. I dunno though, it's weird - I figured me vs. Troll with you town was close to even. Troll shoulda been picking up on that stuff, right?.. Troll?

Also, Vi: if it wasn't pre-planned, why'd you bus Adel? Just because that's what you'd have done as town and it was too hard (unnatural) to come up with a viewpoint that didn't go there, or what? Unless it was specifically done to make you look town (which I would applaud), I don't get it - it looks like Stoofer's Syndrome or so.

[Vi]

That's pretty much it. What Adel was pushing was basically insane, and I'm still not sure how so many people bought the pushes on SpyreX/Porkens/s-lully. Plus I felt someone would catch me if I started going along with things that didn't make sense to me (SpyreX: "Hey Vi you know you're better than this").

With that said, I have no problem lynching bad logicians of any alignment (see Day 3).

[Adel]

what the hell ever dude. I think you should be thankful that I recognized that that you were going to be relentless about busing me & I adopted to your less than optimal tactic. You are welcome, and I hope you get that scummy so that you can experience the joy of being everyone's policy lynch.

[Adel]

btw, after I was hammered I almost posted "by lynching me you will only make me stronger"