Open 156 - Friends and Enemies - Game Over before 816

[Santos]

Unvote

I thought there was a cop in this game. Now I'm just not liking the use of meta DDD used to prove Raivann simply on a chance of 50/50, as it appears the meta is exemplary of a null-tell, IMO.

Vote Count #7

Debonair Danny DiPietro (3) - Toro, itacv2, Raivann
itacv2 (2) - ekiM, ZazieR
Santos (1) - Kise
Raivann (1) - Debonair Danny DiPietro
Sho Minamimoto (1) - muzzz

[ZazieR]

Weak case.
Meta argument isn't valid. Reason 3 wasn't present yet when voted. Leaving only #2. Yet, he made already one post after ekiM complained about Raivann's vote. He had no comment. In his next post, he votes.
So three questions:
-When did you check his meta?
-Why did you check his meta?
-Why didn't you comment on Raivann's vote earlier?

I'm also interested in hearing why you voted without giving your reasons and asking others to vote with you.

Meta is perfectly valid, Zaz. Now, we're not dealing with a large sample size here so it could be mere coincidence but so far the trend suggests more postings = town, less postings = scum. Furthermore, you question my third point and ask why I'd vote without giving reasons? Reactions, specifically Raviann's to verify or run counter to my opinion.

When? Would've been Monday of this week.
Why? I was compiling data for a project I'm doing relating to newbie games. Raivann's name came up as a statistical outlier in my data at which time I realized I was playing with him in this game and his behavior was quite different.
Why no comment? Between Raivann's vote on Exalt and my vote of him I posted once which was a joke "hi" to you. So essentially I did comment on Raivann's vote with my next serious post.

Meta is most of the time a valid argument, but in this case it isn''t. First of all, your sample is one. It would have meant that I was scum in my second game, which I wasn''t. One example doesn''t say much about it in the whole.
Secondly, it''s based upon activity. And activity has multiple factors that have an influence. Difference in allignment can be one, but isn''t the only one.

And you didn''t answer my third question. You only admitted that you first posted a random comment and after some time, a comment about the vote. Why didn''t you comment on the vote at the same time as the random comment?

[ZazieR]

@Zazie-
My vote on Exalt didn't really have any hard evidence just a feeling.

I didn't mean to claim anything except not scum.But I am Vanilla Townie

Did he say the bolded? If so, where? If not, why do you think this?
And why DDD/Toro?

No, because I wanted to OMGUS vote him.
And Toro just from a process of elimination.

Are you asking a bunch of questions to keep heat off you?

Feelings are caused by something in the posts of said player. Can you state what or at least which post(s)?
But you claimed. And my question was why you already claimed. Which is what you have avoided to answer. So please answer.

The OMGUS vote is noted. Not liking it one bit. Especially as you didn''t address his points, except for the meta point.
Can you also elaborate how the process of elimination regarding Toro went?


And no, I''m asking questions to get more information out of the players to see who is scummy. You are reaching here.
It''s also noted that you asked as you''ve played with me before.

[Alduskkel]

Kise has been prodded. My apologies for the lack of flavor in the last two vote counts.

[ZazieR]

@everyone else- I still think That DDD has a chance to be a big shot scum, lol, but he makes a point. I think we might want to test the case.
Why? If Raivann is lynched and he is town we might be short of one people but a nontalkative one, since he is counterproductive is not a big deal and might then watch the patterns of behavior , the bandwagoners and reactions to the lynch.

I wouldn't say counterproductive. I'm just having a little virus problem on home computer.
Instead of lynching me to see DDD's alignment, let's just lynch DDD.

Do you support a DDD lynch? If so, why?

[ZazieR]

Unvote

I thought there was a cop in this game. Now I'm just not liking the use of meta DDD used to prove Raivann simply on a chance of 50/50, as it appears the meta is exemplary of a null-tell, IMO.

Is that so?

Opinion of DDD's explanation?

I like it. It had logic and substantial evidence.

Why the change in your stance?

[Santos]

First, why are you not quoting me in chronological order? Are you trying to set something up on me?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Meta is most of the time a valid argument, but in this case it isn''t. First of all, your sample is one. It would have meant that I was scum in my second game, which I wasn''t. One example doesn''t say much about it in the whole.
Secondly, it''s based upon activity. And activity has multiple factors that have an influence. Difference in allignment can be one, but isn''t the only one.

Actually it takes into account both his completed games. As scum Raivann had ~40 posts in a 20 page game, as town Raivann had ~115 posts in the same time span. And while I agree that this analysis isn't the end all, be all, it's as credible as anything that's been presented this game.

And you didn''t answer my third question. You only admitted that you first posted a random comment and after some time, a comment about the vote. Why didn''t you comment on the vote at the same time as the random comment?

Don't remember, was probably because I didn't have the time and/or inclination at that point in the space/time continuum to seriously analyze the last two pages.

[muzzz]

@Santos: I expect you to answer Zazie's question regardless of her answer, so you might as well just do it now. The longer you wait, the less plausible it becomes.

[Exalt]

Meta is most of the time a valid argument, but in this case it isn''t. First of all, your sample is one. It would have meant that I was scum in my second game, which I wasn''t. One example doesn''t say much about it in the whole.
Secondly, it''s based upon activity. And activity has multiple factors that have an influence. Difference in allignment can be one, but isn''t the only one.

Actually it takes into account both his completed games. As scum Raivann had ~40 posts in a 20 page game, as town Raivann had ~115 posts in the same time span. And while I agree that this analysis isn't the end all, be all, it's as credible as anything that's been presented this game.

I can agree, but I can also disagree. I am usually a postaholic, and I always attack lurkers, but this game I basically am one to a large extent. I'm in 5 games, and I have summer college finals coming up in a week, so I haven't been as active as I should be.

Basically, if you were to meta me right now, you would see that I usually post nonstop and chime in quite a bit. I haven't done that in all 5 of my games right now, so in essence everyone could say I'm scum because I am not playing like I usually do.

See the point?

I think if we are going to lynch raiv it should be for his post content not his quantity of posts. He has enough scummy things that he has said and backed out of to make a weak case at least without using a one game meta.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Two things Exalt. First if you're a "postaholic" in general then lurking isn't a tell either way in meta terms. It indicates that you're not playing in your usual fashion as either scum or town and thus isn't a tell in either direction.

Second, that's where Raivann's response or lack thereof comes in. Raivann had the opportunity to explain his change in behavior if there is in fact a legitimate reason. He could've easily mentioned whether he's been busy in IRL or intentionally shifting strategy or some other point. Instead he chose to ignore the points presented and come back with a weak OMGUS vote.

[Sho Minamimoto]

No hard evidence, just a hunch.
My explanation was trying too hard, should have said to appear townie.
You also seem overly worried about my vote on you.

I'm sorry for saying I agree w/you ekiM.
It won't happen again.

I don't see how one vote would make me overly worried, but its whatever you wanna think I guess. I didn't realize me asking you a question to get you to produce some type of content other than a quick vote was showing I am worried. Maybe YOU are the one trying too hard to look town now

I would like to note that the above is one of those overwhelmingly beautiful moments (outside of mathematics of course) where Exalt looks like a half decent player.

Are you trying to get on my good side Sho? Why do you go out of your way to try to butter me up at this point? Is it because you are being honest/sarcastic or is it because you are trying to avoid further attention from me?

Honesty. That, and when you make a post that is actually worth reading, I want people to read it. I somewhat skim over your posts looking for thing I find interesting. If I do, I reread it, and then consider how awesome it is. My above quoted paragraph=zetta awesome.


Hm... Raivann has been kind of quiet since gaining the spotlight in terms of discussion. Odds he is scum is slightly increasing. Also, I think that while the meta isn't the "end all be all," I do agree with DDD that the analysis cannot be simply tossed aside. Mostly because a Raivann defense or a forced participation would increase our ability to win, just because activity is good for town.

[ZazieR]

First, why are you not quoting me in chronological order? Are you trying to set something up on me?

I didn't put it in chronical order, because I was responding to your newest post.
So no, I'm not setting you up. The reaching is noted.
But your answer is?

[ZazieR]

Meta is most of the time a valid argument, but in this case it isn''t. First of all, your sample is one. It would have meant that I was scum in my second game, which I wasn''t. One example doesn''t say much about it in the whole.
Secondly, it''s based upon activity. And activity has multiple factors that have an influence. Difference in allignment can be one, but isn''t the only one.

Actually it takes into account both his completed games. As scum Raivann had ~40 posts in a 20 page game, as town Raivann had ~115 posts in the same time span. And while I agree that this analysis isn't the end all, be all, it's as credible as anything that's been presented this game.

Question regarding the meta argument. How come you didn't look for other games in which Raivann played to see if your meta argument was the case in other games?

[ZazieR]

Raivann

Two questions:
-Who is your top suspect and why?
-If you had to compare the way you play here with one of your newbie games, which playstyle would be more similar with the one you use here and why?

[Exalt]

Second, that's where Raivann's response or lack thereof comes in. Raivann had the opportunity to explain his change in behavior if there is in fact a legitimate reason. He could've easily mentioned whether he's been busy in IRL or intentionally shifting strategy or some other point. Instead he chose to ignore the points presented and come back with a weak OMGUS vote.

I agree with this part. Raivann has not responded much at all, or provided any real content OR answers to any of the questioned posted to him. This does bother me somewhat.

I am willing to give him time to get things answered, but I do think he SHOULD answer them.

Also

ZazieR:

You tend to post a LOT of questions to a LOT of different players, which is good and fine, except that it kind of draws away from focusing on any one person to scum hunt, and it also makes it harder to find things to ask you. You post almost exclusively questions instead of content on other people's answers in a lot of ways. I'm kind of wondering what the deal is with this. It does look like you are trying VERY hard to scum hunt (or look that way), but I'm not sure what you are receiving out of it.

Care to give a top 2 scumdar analysis? You ask questions of everyone, so I would just like to know if you are getting any answers to help you find scum or if you are just asking questions to look like you are town.

[Exalt]

ZazieR: Maybe to help clarify the reasoning for the question further... you seem to be all over the place with EVERYONE, and so I would really like to know if this is helping you at all with a suspect list and if you have been able to narrow anything down. At some point, you will need to make a singular case on someone and take a stance.

[ZazieR]

ZazieR:

You tend to post a LOT of questions to a LOT of different players, which is good and fine, except that it kind of draws away from focusing on any one person to scum hunt, and it also makes it harder to find things to ask you. You post almost exclusively questions instead of content on other people's answers in a lot of ways. I'm kind of wondering what the deal is with this. It does look like you are trying VERY hard to scum hunt (or look that way), but I'm not sure what you are receiving out of it.

Care to give a top 2 scumdar analysis? You ask questions of everyone, so I would just like to know if you are getting any answers to help you find scum or if you are just asking questions to look like you are town.

I ask questions when I want to know somebody stance, like those when I first joined the game, or to see why somebody is behaving like this, which is what I'm doing now. When I don't respond to an answer, then it means that I'm satisfied with it.
At this moment, I have four suspects: itacv2, Raivann, Santos and DDD in that order.
I barely ask itacv2 questions as I have already explained why he's suspicious. Raivann and Santos are avoiding to answer. If they had answered their questions before, I could have shown why I'm suspicious of them.
In other words, I'm asking questions to look for scum.

[ZazieR]

ZazieR: Maybe to help clarify the reasoning for the question further... you seem to be all over the place with EVERYONE, and so I would really like to know if this is helping you at all with a suspect list and if you have been able to narrow anything down. At some point, you will need to make a singular case on someone and take a stance.

I have made a case. See itacv2.
Outside him, I'm asking three other players questions. 1/3 of the game, which is not everybody. And with the questions I have asked, I'm narrowing down my suspect list.

[Raivann]

Raivann

Two questions:
-Who is your top suspect and why?
-If you had to compare the way you play here with one of your newbie games, which playstyle would be more similar with the one you use here and why?

I've still got many suspects
DDD for still bringing up my post count, I said I had computer virus(fixed now btw).

Santos for not voting anyone and just hoping town mislynches on its own

Zazie Im suspicious of too many questions like your trying to 'appear' townie

I was agreeing with your case on itacv2, I'll reread him.

muzzz- Don't have a read on yet

I am getting townie vibes off Exalt & ekiM

As far as my playstyle goes it's a work in progress, I tunneled way too much on one player my last game. The game I played with you I was scum and it was my first game ever, I was just trying not to screw it up.
This game I'm trying to narrow down whose scum, getting there.
So to answer the question it's neither.

And I'd rather not lynch DDD yet, my suspect list is too high still.

[ZazieR]

And the questions of post 177 and 179 got ignored.

[ekiM]

itacv2's latest post cements my vote for him. I'd like everyone to comment on posts 145 and 160.

---

Exalt, I still don't get you re: Sho.

Nobody

said we should ignore him if he does scummy things. We've said that posting "in character" is not scummy.

Also, no vote? Who are your suspects right now?

[Exalt]

---

Exalt, I still don't get you re: Sho.

Nobody

said we should ignore him if he does scummy things. We've said that posting "in character" is not scummy.

Ummm, no... quite a few of you said Sho was not scummy because his play style, and I disagreed. I'll have to go back and find the quotes, but I can find quite a few to support that.

As far as you, why do you continue to bring up Sho even still? I have explained my stance on it and why I changed for the past 3 pages. If you cant figure it out by now then vote me or get over it. I'm honestly tired of talking about his "play style" still with you, but you won't stop bringing it up. Scum buddy much?

[ekiM]

I was responding to your post 174, silly bear.

And, look:

I understand what zetta is, but used in the context you put it in does not work unless you are going for the slang term, which is the same as "uber, or super". Saying something is "zeta cool" is the same as saying something is "hella cool". We might understand the meaning, but it doesn't mean it is grammatically correct used in that fashion. Calling someone else dumb because you choose to not be grammatically correct is the same as trying to factor hectopascals.

For everyone else, I saw this in another game I'm in, and

Sho is contriving his wording and playstyle

based on some type of anime character with the same name. The link can be found here http://twewy.wikia.com/wiki/Sho_Minamimoto

I hope he doesn't continue to do it all game, because I think it will become quite annoying later on.

If Sho keeps it up I would vote him simply because acting like that is pretty annoying

, and it is more detrimental than actually productive to town in terms of analyzing and scum hunting. If I decided to speak a very unknown foreign language in the game, you would probably vote me off too, because you would know that I could speak English and so speaking the foreign language would only be to be unhelpful to town and piss everyone else off. Being detrimental on purpose can only be viewed as scummy, no matter how you look at it. It is that simple.

You were talking about

the style in which he posts

. It is not scummy to say "zetta" instead of "hella". Period.

[ekiM]

Exalt, why are you not voting? Who are your suspects right now?