Mafia 96 - Murder in Emerald City (Game Over!)

[SerialClergyman]

Sorry, simulposted you.

Well - your post saying you made it 'more clear' was actually a change in stance - you originally said he had read the first post, now you're amending that to say he hasn't.

And while I can handle people being right about things more than I can, it's the amount that I find scummy. You didn't include Zazie because he said it after the flip, but it reads like it was a read he made before the flip. In fairness though he isn't claiming MafiaMann as town, so fair enough there.

[Xylthixlm]

Spy claims to have just nailed every major issue for the first couple of days on a re-read that couldn't have been thorough

There were only two major issues for the first couple of days? Really? You're stretching. He didn't take any position at all on MafiaMann, for example.

[SerialClergyman]

I think that's a fair rule to apply to people like Empking or whatever who contribute zero to the game, but Mastin seemed to be pointing out tells and attacking people, (despite doing so in a clusterfuck of crap) and that seemed to be a poor choice of lynch target round 1.

[Xylthixlm]

Whether he read the first post before reading is almost irrelevant - all his points save Mastin and ckool

were

made with the benefit of hindsight, and clearly indicate it.

Don't worry Namttam, I haven't forgotten you.

[SerialClergyman]

There were only two major issues for the first couple of days? Really? You're stretching. He didn't take any position at all on MafiaMann, for example.

This is a fair point.

[Xylthixlm]

I think that's a fair rule to apply to people like Empking or whatever who contribute zero to the game, but Mastin seemed to be pointing out tells and attacking people, (despite doing so in a clusterfuck of crap) and that seemed to be a poor choice of lynch target round 1.

Mastin is

never

a poor choice of lynch target.

[Xylthixlm]

Which is to say, if I have no clue at all about Mastin's alignment, I will still believe that lynching him raises the town's odds of winning.

[iamausername]

-=Vote Count #50=-

Namttam (5) - SerialClergyman, Kmd4390, SpyreX, Xylthixlm, Kublai Khan
Xylthixlm (5) - roflcopter, Lowell, curiouskarmadog, Namttam, Wickedestjr
Hayker (1) - molestargazer
Lowell (1) - Hayker

Not Voting (1) - Faraday

7 to lynch.

[Wickedestjr]

I agree that Spyre getting everything right is scummy. I would have gotten two or three of those assumptions right. He got all six right. He might as well tell us who the rest of the scum are. It also seems too good to be true.

I know, if me and hayker weren't masons, then we'd be screwed.

Xyl, I think you should claim if you haven't yet.

[Xylthixlm]

I would have gotten two or three of those assumptions right. He got all

six

two

right.

Fixed.

[Wickedestjr]

Voting Records (thought it might help)

Achilles/SpyreX

- /Namttam

BloodCovenent/Lowell

- /hayker, mastin, MafiaMann, Xylthixlm, hayker, hayker, Xylthixlm

cateraction/curiouskarmadog

- /Mastin, Mufasa, ckool5000, Mastin, Xylthixlm.

ckool5000

- Kublai Khan, Mastin, Mufasa, MafiaMann, Mastin

dvdkid13/Kmd4390

- /roflcopter, MafiaMann, roflcopter, Mastin, roflcopter, Wickedestjr, Namttam.

Empking's Alt

- Mastin, fallen angel, Kublai Khan, MafiaMann, Kublai Khan

fallen angel/Xylthixlm

- Johnny Rotten, ckool5000/hayker, Mastin, ckool5000, Mastin, Wickedestjr, Lowell, Namttam

Faraday

- hayker, MafiaMann, hayker, hayker

Hayker

- Johnny Rotten, roflcopter, MafiaMann, roflcopter, ckool5000, roflcopter, Lowell

Johnny Rotten/VP Baltar

- Mastin/MafiaMann, Mastin, MafiaMann, Mufasa, MafiaMann, ckool, Mastin

Kise

- Johnny Rotten

Kublai Khan

- Mastin, Lowell, ckool5000, Mastin, roflcopter, hayker, Namttam

MafiaMann

- hayker, Mastin

Mufasa

- Johnny Rotten, Mastin, MafiaMann

Namttam

- hayker, Johnny Rotten, VP Baltar, Kublai Khan, VP Baltar, Xylthixlm

Redith/molestargazer

- /Mufasa, Lowell, hayker

Reveillark/SerialClergyman

- Johnny Rotten/ VP Baltar, Achilles, MafiaMann, ckool5000, Mastin, Namttam

roflcopter

- Mastin, hayker, Mastin, MafiaMann, hayker, Mastin, ckool5000, Mastin, Kmd4390, hayker, Xylthixlm

Wickedestjr

- Empking's Alt, dvdkid13, Mastin, MafiaMann, Empking's Alt, Mastin, Xylthixlm, Namttam, Xylthixlm

ZazieR

- Kublai Khan

[Wickedestjr]

Sorry I didn't post my opinions. That post took me like an hour, and my eyes really hurt, and I have to let somebody else on this computer. I will post my opinions next time I get the chance.

[SpyreX]

God I started actually working on a long post detailing this but:

1.) Lets say I decided to lie about it - what good does that actually serve?
2.) I find the issues I mentioned to a.) not be inclusive of everything going on and b.) not be 100% right
3.) This is very, very bothersome when we have dual wagons pushing to lynch and is suspect thusly.

[SerialClergyman]

1) Note you didn't say 'as scum' at the end of that question. I'm not really sure is the answer. I imagine you could use it to give further weight to the rest of your claims.. I read the game brilliantly so far, so listen to me now. It's not hugely powerful, but I could turn that question on you and say assume truth - what good does it do then for you as town?
2) I think the issues you mentioned before being called on it were most of the major issues from the early part of the game and were all 100% right.
3) Sorry, what? What does the fact we have competing wagons have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that we have to ignore anything we might find suspicious that comes from anyone other than the two major wagons?

[Wickedestjr]

I added more information to the table. I will comment on it after lunch.

Player/Replacement

- Who they voted - Number of distinct players voted for - number of votes given
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Achilles/SpyreX

- /Namttam - 1 - 1

BloodCovenent/Lowell

- /hayker,

mastin

,

MafiaMann,

Xylthixlm, hayker, hayker, Xylthixlm - 4 - 7

cateraction/curiouskarmadog

- /

Mastin

,

Mufasa, ckool5000,

Mastin

, Xylthixlm - 4 - 5

ckool5000

- Kublai Khan,

Mastin,

Mufasa, MafiaMann,

Mastin

- 4 - 5

dvdkid13/Kmd4390

- /roflcopter,

MafiaMann,

roflcopter,

Mastin,

roflcopter, Wickedestjr, Namttam - 5 - 7

Empking's Alt

-

Mastin,

fallen angel, Kublai Khan,

MafiaMann,

Kublai Khan - 4 - 5

fallen angel/Xylthixlm

-

Johnny Rotten,

ckool5000

/hayker,

Mastin,

ckool5000,

Mastin,

Wickedestjr, Lowell, Namttam - 2/6 - 2/7

Faraday

- hayker,

MafiaMann,

hayker, hayker - 2 - 4

Hayker

-

Johnny Rotten,

roflcopter,

MafiaMann,

roflcopter,

ckool5000,

roflcopter, Lowell - 5 - 7

Johnny Rotten/VP Baltar

-

Mastin

/

MafiaMann

,

Mastin,

MafiaMann, Mufasa, MafiaMann, ckool,

Mastin

- 1/4 - 1/7

Kise

- Johnny Rotten

- 1 - 1

Kublai Khan

-

Mastin,

Lowell,

ckool5000,

Mastin,

roflcopter, hayker, Namttam - 6 - 7

MafiaMann

- hayker,

Mastin

- 2 - 2

Mastin

- Kublai Khan,

VP Baltar

Mufasa

-

Johnny Rotten,

Mastin,

MafiaMann

- 3 - 3

Namttam

- hayker,

Johnny Rotten, VP Baltar

, Kublai Khan,

VP Baltar,

Xylthixlm - 5 - 6

Redith/molestargazer

- /

Mufasa,

Lowell, hayker - 3 - 3

Reveillark/SerialClergyman

-

Johnny Rotten/ VP Baltar

, Achilles,

MafiaMann, ckool5000,

Mastin,

Namttam - 1/6 - 1/6

roflcopter

-

Mastin

, hayker,

Mastin

,

MafiaMann,

hayker,

Mastin,

ckool5000,

Mastin,

Kmd4390, hayker, Xylthixlm - 6 - 11

Wickedestjr

-

Empking's Alt

, dvdkid13,

Mastin,

MafiaMann, Empking's Alt,

Mastin,

Xylthixlm, Namttam, Xylthixlm - 7 - 9

ZazieR

- Kublai Khan - 1 - 1

[molestargazer]

Many apologies again, things have been pretty hectic recently.
Just reached my apology post at 1802, here's as good a time as any to post a quick summary of what I think so far (Starting from around P67/68).

I'm not sure I like how Kmd thought Xyl was scum until he made a mistake, then he's town.
I'm getting a gut feeling that Rofl is pretty pro-town from his posts.

I think that Wicked's balls-up in terms of "Read" and "result" isn't anything to look into. He got an innocent read, which has been stated several times by him. People still pushing it (Xyl, 1676) after this point could be classed as rolefishing?
SerialClergyMan makes a good point on Kmd's backtracking in regards to the testlynch thing.

@SpyreX

- Could you please explain what in particular it was about Rofl and Kmd that gave you a "Megatown" vibe?

@Kmd

- Could you please explain what it was in the VC analysis that led you to believe Nam's scum?

Really don't like Nam's "defence". Other than that, at the time of reading, I hadn't seen much of a case on Nam.
Despite the fact I don't like SpyreX's Para1 analysis in why Nam is scummy because of being annoyed by Mastin yet still thinking Pro-Town (I'll go into a bit more depth on this if you like), I think the end result is a strong case. I would probably be happy to vote right now.

I don't like Wicked's jumping about on the wagons and general cock-up regarding Nam/Xyl switching their votes to each other to prevent their lynch.

[molestargazer]

I don't like Namttam's WIFOMmy defence in 1812.
I don't like how Hayker thinks that a Lowell case is one more worth pursuing at this point in the game instead of a Nam or Xyl. Yes, it could be significant. But I'd like your opinions on the current cases and why you don't think they're that good.

@SpyreX

- How can WIFOM be used 'correctly'? An example please?

[curiouskarmadog]

Anyone on the fence between myself and Xyl, check out his voting record. Xyl has been hesitant to make any sort of case when voting. (Easiest way is to sort for vote in iso and look for the bold.) Voted for Hayker, Mastin, ckool, Mastin, Wickedestjr, Lowell and me.

why does that make Xyl scum? is he the only one here that has done that?

unvote

for now.

[iamausername]

-=Lowell and roflcopter have been prodded=-

[Wickedestjr]

I think the scum are amongst these seven;
SpyreX
Lowell
curiouskarmadog
Kmd4390
Xylthixlm
Faraday
Namttam

To be honest, the voting records I posted haven't really pointed anything out to me. Hopefully someone can make something of it though. I will continue to analyze it.

Player/how many times they were voted for


Mastin - 23
Hayker - 14
MafiaMann - 13
Xylthixlm - 7
ckool5000 - 7
roflcopter - 7
Johnny Rotten - 6
Kublai Khan - 6
Namttam - 6
VP Baltar - 5
Lowell - 4
Mufasa - 4
Empking's Alt - 2
Wickedestjr - 2
molestargazer- 1
Achilles - 1
dvdkid13 - 1
Kmd4390 - 1
fallen angel - 1

In a few minutes I'm going to post who has voted for the people at the top of the list. Those are probably the people that are going with the flow.

[Lowell]

prod received. nothing has changed from my last post.

[Wickedestjr]

roflcopter and VP Baltar were on most of the biggest bandwagons, but considering they started most of the bandwagons, I think it is safe to say that they are innocent, or at least rofl, because we already know VP is. Apart from them the two people who were on most of the big bandwagons were Xylthixlm and Lowell. The two of them have been going with the flow most of the time so I think the two of them are most likely to be scum.

[Faraday]

Hmm w/ 13 alive poe is probably as helpful as anything.

Rofl, the masons, Kublai are all obv town in my eyes. I think it's highly likely at this stage the 4th neighbour is a scum, due to the lack of a claim.

This leaves 8 people. (when I take myself out)

Spyrex's catching up post was fine to me. I don't see it as a tell either way, he eventually did post his thoughts on the current situation.

I find Xyl neutral-ish, but Fallen Angel was quite scummy as his predecessor. And was my second suspect for quite a while.
Nam hasn't really caught my attention with much of anything the whole game tbh.

I think both have a fairly good chance of being scum actually.

Mole's timing of the claim was fairly good, and he went about it in a 'townie' way I thought.

Need to read back over the last few pages a bit more, sorta skimmed them, but those are my general thoughts atm.

[Lowell]

mod

, apologies, but I'll be on vacation for the next two weeks or so. I will hopefully find internet for at least some of that time, but either way I'd prefer not to be replaced.

[SpyreX]

1) Note you didn't say 'as scum' at the end of that question. I'm not really sure is the answer. I imagine you could use it to give further weight to the rest of your claims.. I read the game brilliantly so far, so listen to me now. It's not hugely powerful, but I could turn that question on you and say assume truth - what good does it do then for you as town?
2) I think the issues you mentioned before being called on it were most of the major issues from the early part of the game and were all 100% right.
3) Sorry, what? What does the fact we have competing wagons have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that we have to ignore anything we might find suspicious that comes from anyone other than the two major wagons?

1.) Because I wanted the answer as both sides. You're saying I'm lying and I'm asking that even if that WERE true what machinations does it serve. Being able to retroactively read a game doesn't mean anything unless once I'm in and moving I can put together a case that makes sense.
2.) If those are the only major issues than sure. However, see 1. Additionally I never said MafiaMann was super-town. He wasn't. HOWEVER, when you watch 5 people jump ship without even pretending to explain why in rapid succession you

should

get a lot less comfortable with the lynch.
3.) Ignore no. However I brought this up because I thought you were one of the non-voters and was going to go onto a tirade about derailing wagons but that doesn't appear to be the case so keep on keepin' on.

@SpyreX - Could you please explain what in particular it was about Rofl and Kmd that gave you a "Megatown" vibe?

Well, you have rofl who shotgunned down Mastin and didn't let go - which as a RB makes minimal sense for a bus. Then the miller discussion - and, really, the ebb and flow of posting makes sense with how the game has went.

KMD, on the other hand this game manages to have pretty much entirely different reads on me with this game but does back him up. Further, the shoot me or him with rofl only would be a net scum gain IF rofl was scum. All other scenarios would be a disaster for KMD-scum and Rofl-town. (Note: this means that if I am turbo wrong and BOTH KMD and ROFL are scum then kudos. )

@SpyreX - How can WIFOM be used 'correctly'? An example please?

Check out Kirby Mafia (from my wiki)for a great end-game example but I will try to summarize:

5-man game - we have one player who due to the game is all but confirmed town (KMD). We have another that is fairly confirmed(Bio). Leaving three of us left.

Somehow, Bio managed to not claim during the massclaim shenanigai. Now, instead of claiming and moving ahead he actively opts not to to give the scum the worst kind of WIFOM - do they kill the confirmed town (KMD) risking leaving a PR alive at 3-way lylo or do they try and shut down the "possible" PR knowing that if they are wrong and he is just a vanilla they have just put the game into KMD's hands.

Now, thats the kind of WIFOM I like. Not a subset of "I did this scummy thing and am retroactively defending myself via WIFOM".