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[Korts]

(4) Ren Hoek- Budja, Yosarian2, vollkan, SensFan

(2) FaerieLord- Goatrevolt, Adel
(1) SensFan- scotmany12
(1) crywolf- TDC
(1) Budja- Ren Hoek

not voting:

OhGodMyLife, FaerieLord, crywolf, curiouskarmadog

7 to lynch

Deadline for Day 1 is 6PM EST August 4.

[Adel]

Can you give an example of a post of mine that felt artificial?

I just skimmed your post in isolation, and I think it was the number of one-line posts. At the time I was skimming some of your posts in other games in isolation, and I got a "keeping a low profile" vibe from you in this game, like you were trying to stay just active enough to not be noticed as not being active.

[Adel]

Since when are quick lynches beneficial for the town?

when it grants a structural advantage to the town.

Also, for the record, can you please restate your case Adel?

with a confirmed CD, you are a role that is high risk (if you are scum) and low reward (if you are town) since what you add to the game (ability to replace CD) is redundant as we can elect a new CD.

You "acted" surprised when Seraphim was killed, and I do not believe that was an honest response. That Budja, a player who is clearly not paying attention to detail, made the same mistake does little to support your innocence in my mind, since I think you are more competent than he is.

Without overwhelming evidence of your innocence, I think you should die. This is early in the game, and you are too high risk and low reward for you to be left alive.

[Ren Hoek]

I need top be convinced that FL needs to die and die quickly.

I get the gist of the argument, but I'm not blown away by its strength. What shenanigans are you referring to?

[Adel]

when have you even been blown away by the strength of an argument on day 1?

later in the game with scot still alive a living FL-scum could appoint another player to be CD, and we would be stuck with that player as CD or we would have to choose to be without powerroles. With FL dead we will have an insurance policy on scot, so that we will be able to get another confirmed player to take his place should he die. FL-scum has the power to sabotage our ability to keep a confirmed player in the CD role, and our ability to keep a CD alive in this game.

[Adel]

... and it needs to be a quicklynch so that the scum team won't have a chance to discover the optimal tactic to use from this point to defend FL.

[Ren Hoek]

when have you even been blown away by the strength of an argument on day 1?

Never. But we are talking about knocking off the CEO in short order on Day 1. It better be good.

later in the game with scot still alive a living FL-scum could appoint another player to be CD, and we would be stuck with that player as CD or we would have to choose to be without powerroles. With FL dead we will have an insurance policy on scot, so that we will be able to get another confirmed player to take his place should he die. FL-scum has the power to sabotage our ability to keep a confirmed player in the CD role, and our ability to keep a CD alive in this game.

I see.

And what are the pros of leaving FL alive?

[Ren Hoek]

... and it needs to be a quicklynch so that the scum team won't have a chance to discover the optimal tactic to use from this point to defend FL.

Like, what are they going to do? I feel dense.

[Adel]

when have you even been blown away by the strength of an argument on day 1?

Never. But we are talking about knocking off the CEO in short order on Day 1. It better be good.

in order to assure the security of our confirmed CD, he needs to die. "CEO" is just a title, with a confirmed CD he has no positive value over any other role, only the liability of being scum and having a big negative impact on our ability to have power roles assigned by a person we trust.

... and it needs to be a quicklynch so that the scum team won't have a chance to discover the optimal tactic to use from this point to defend FL.

Like, what are they going to do? I feel dense.

I'm really not going to answer that, and I don't think that you are dense.

[Ren Hoek]

unvote, vote: FairieLord

[Adel]

awesome! We only need four more votes to get this!

[Ren Hoek]

I am keenly interested in Budja and vollkan's opinion on this.

[Adel]

I am keenly interested in OhGodMyLife's opinion upon all of this.

Getting the ball rolling on my new mini theme took up the majority of my MS time today. Sorry for the delay, I'll start in on this tomorrow.

[Ren Hoek]

I suspect the lurkerscum will lurk harder in order to avoid expressing an opinion.

We live in dangerous times.

[Goatrevolt]

I heard back from Korts and my result will show up as having targeted Scot.

It took a bit, but I understand what makes FL dangerous now (I should have been the first to notice this). His role is strictly a liability for us, and can potentially screw us over entirely if he's scum (which is probably the case).

[TDC]

tracker doesn't get results until end of day. Tracker should not claim until after he gets results.

What changed from this to your decision to reveal yourself?

Goat claimed role and target.

Uh, what?
He claimed

after

you posted your QT with Sens.

[TDC]

I see you've actually answered this.
Not particularly convinced of the case as such, but I understand the argument for getting him out of the way.

vote: FearieLord

[vollkan]

I'm annoyed that sens apparently has the time to constantly post in other games and other threads on the site but yet he can't answer a simple question of why he thinks I am scum. Him constantly ignoring that question which a few people have asked him is condemning.

I think that your attack on me was bullshit and opprtunistic.

So despite the fact that others have also said you took fl out of context, that you ignored ren hoek, and that you took forever to explain why you think i'm scum, everything I have said is bullshit and opportunistic? I guess that makes CKD opportunistic in pursuing a bullshit case too right? I guess everyone that says you misrepped fl is opportunistic then too right? Seriously, the best you can do is that my attack on you is bullshit and opportunistic, despite me being right. Seriously, come on, there is no way you can be town and respond that way.

This is what I meant by his reliance on smear. "Bullshit" and "opportunism" are words of the same nature as "strawman" and "misrepresent"; they are used as a substitute for "I don't agree with you [reasons for disagreement omitted, of course]" so as to make accuser/s look scummy.

I would mention that the fact that Sensfan did not try to get the tracker role for himself is probably a point in his favor.

Yeah, but if that exchange was posted and Sens had tried to argue for why he should get tracker, I daresay most of us would see that as a scumtell, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if Sens-scum would be thinking of that danger.

So you think I'm scum with Ren and FL and...budja?

As Adel said, this is a rhetorical trick and doesn't in any way discredit suspicions. I'm interested as to why you'd ask it, though.

I always thought the case on FL was not that strong and easily explained by poor reading.

Again, I am still baffled as to what was so poor about the FL case

Since when are quick lynches beneficial for the town?

when it grants a structural advantage to the town.

Also, for the record, can you please restate your case Adel?

with a confirmed CD, you are a role that is high risk (if you are scum) and low reward (if you are town) since what you add to the game (ability to replace CD) is redundant as we can elect a new CD.

You "acted" surprised when Seraphim was killed, and I do not believe that was an honest response. That Budja, a player who is clearly not paying attention to detail, made the same mistake does little to support your innocence in my mind, since I think you are more competent than he is.

Without overwhelming evidence of your innocence, I think you should die. This is early in the game, and you are too high risk and low reward for you to be left alive.

What do you think about the point I made two posts ago. I'll quote the relevant part now:

FL

As I said "if FL said she understood your [Adel's] plan, that entails that she understands that part of the rationale for the plan is that it allows for a situation where scum targeting a high profile target can have that target busdriven with a less high profile target. As such, it wouldn't make sense for her to appear so surprised by the death of Seraphim or, more accurately, for her to say that scum "chose" Seraphim (since, given the earlier statement, she should recognise the prospect of busdriving)"

Relative Evaluation:

For starters, I like the FL case least of all. Innocent misunderstanding is possible, but I can't see what the understanding would be then. More potently, I think, is Budja's point about the prospect of it simply being a failure to "join the dots". If anything, I would probably expect such a failure to come from town more than scum; town having less of a reason to be immediately thinking strategically about the result in terms of busdriving. Since, aside from that, FL hasn't leaped out at me as scummy, I don't think it is a strong case.

[Goatrevolt]

Vollkan: You're baffled at why Budja calls the FL case poor, but you also called it weak. What gives?

[Goatrevolt]

Also, you failed entirely to comment on Adel's plan to quicklynch FL. Thoughts?

[vollkan]

Vollkan: You're baffled at why Budja calls the FL case poor, but you also called it weak. What gives?

It seems I got it confused with the Sens defence. If you recall, in my last post I had this exchange with Sens:

I'd go with Volkan's list, except he appears to not really care about looking at the attack in detail, given he missed the relevence about me not having any votes, and threw some general nondescript about how certain words I used are "an easy way to smear", without saying why they were bad in this case.

What was the relevance of you not having votes on you? I really don't see what the link is here. You having no votes on you has no bearing on whether or not voting someone else to L-1 is chicken
[/quote]

Sens had said that my argument against him was basically missing a lot of detail when, to me, it seemed pretty straightforward. I had in my mind that "case has been called weak, but I don't think it is" but wrongly applied that thought.

Also, you failed entirely to comment on Adel's plan to quicklynch FL. Thoughts?

That's the reason I asked Adel about my thoughts on the FL case at the end. To be clear, if it wasn't from my quoted thoughts, I just can't see what is so damning about the reaction to Seraph's death. Adel's point about high-risk is a legitimate one, but I don't think the case against FL is enough to justify a lynch.

[curiouskarmadog]

when have you even been blown away by the strength of an argument on day 1?

later in the game with scot still alive a living FL-scum could appoint another player to be CD, and we would be stuck with that player as CD or we would have to choose to be without powerroles. With FL dead we will have an insurance policy on scot, so that we will be able to get another confirmed player to take his place should he die. FL-scum has the power to sabotage our ability to keep a confirmed player in the CD role, and our ability to keep a CD alive in this game.

Dammit, I got a question about this theory that might be important, but dont know how to ask it without helping FL-scum.....

this theory seems flawed to me.

[Adel]

That's the reason I asked Adel about my thoughts on the FL case at the end. To be clear, if it wasn't from my quoted thoughts, I just can't see what is so damning about the reaction to Seraph's death. Adel's point about high-risk is a legitimate one, but I don't think the case against FL is enough to justify a lynch.

huh, you didn't seem to have that problem earlier:

why do you think that vollkan wasn't the kill choice for the scum?

I am honestly not sure why they chose seraphim considering he is the weakest link (in my opinion) from that list.

(Also, still V/LA. Have unexpected internet access for the next few hours)

he refers to "that list" which I assume references

I think the optimal scum kill choice was a member of the accounts team

• vollkan - Head of Account Services
  crywolf20084 - Account Executive
  Ren Hoek - Account Executive
  Nuwen - Account Executive
  curiouskarmadog - Account Executive
  Seraphim - Account Executive

I think that they tried to pick who the most likely target for the bussdriver switch would be. Thankfully, the odds were against them. The tracker is alive. You are welcome.

which you will note came before FL posted:

why do you think that vollkan wasn't the kill choice for the scum?

I am honestly not sure why they chose seraphim considering he is the weakest link (in my opinion) from that list.

(Also, still V/LA. Have unexpected internet access for the next few hours)

which is a wold apart from

A player who had not yet linked the two together upon seeing the kill.

.. I'd already connected the majority of the dots for FL, and yet he still posted

I am honestly not sure why they chose seraphim considering he is the weakest link (in my opinion) from that list.

I don't buy it.

Better point.

then you lurked for three days, and posted your

Relative Evaluation:

For starters, I like the FL case least of all. Innocent misunderstanding is possible, but I can't see what the understanding would be then. More potently, I think, is Budja's point about the prospect of it simply being a failure to "join the dots". If anything, I would probably expect such a failure to come from town more than scum; town having less of a reason to be immediately thinking strategically about the result in terms of busdriving. Since, aside from that, FL hasn't leaped out at me as scummy, I don't think it is a strong case.

The Sens and Ren cases are similar and I frankly have trouble weighing them up. For what it's worth, the biggest single point on Ren, in my view, is the contradiction. The biggest on Sens is the FL attack.

which offers no real opinion (rare for volkan-town) on the difference between Sensfan and Ren. You dismiss the very case against FL you had agreed with three days before.

and then you lurk for another three days, and then make a single post:

@ vollkan

Limiting your analysis to 3 players (suggested by another player, Adel) doesn't sit well with me. Are you unable or unwilling to think for yourself and put pressure on players that have gotten away with lurking or flying under the radar, for instance? Adel himself isn't worthy of being looked at? What about Budja?

I think you are beating up on this unreasonably. Sure, that post only dealt with three people, but nothing I have said in any way implied that I am somehow limiting my analysis to those three.

I'd go with Volkan's list, except he appears to not really care about looking at the attack in detail, given he missed the relevence about me not having any votes, and threw some general nondescript about how certain words I used are "an easy way to smear", without saying why they were bad in this case.

What was the relevance of you not having votes on you? I really don't see what the link is here. You having no votes on you has no bearing on whether or not voting someone else to L-1 is chicken

To elaborate on the smearing thing. I think that certain words - "wifom", "strawman", "misrepresent" as obvious examples - have a tendency to be overused and overstretched as a means of turning misunderstanding into a pseudo-scumtell. I don't see any strawman in the "i don't have any votes thing", because I'm still confused as to what sensible meaning can come from it. As for the misrepresenting thing, it's not at all unreasonable that Ren would see your response of "Awesome, thanks for letting me know" as showing some eagerness. Maybe you didn't mean it that way. But that doesn't make it a "misrepresentation". Just to be clear, the words I've identified are often entirely appropriate in this game, but they are also very often misused.

and then you lurk for another three days, apparently missing when I posted:

Since when are quick lynches beneficial for the town?

when it grants a structural advantage to the town.

Also, for the record, can you please restate your case Adel?

with a confirmed CD, you are a role that is high risk (if you are scum) and low reward (if you are town) since what you add to the game (ability to replace CD) is redundant as we can elect a new CD.

You "acted" surprised when Seraphim was killed, and I do not believe that was an honest response. That Budja, a player who is clearly not paying attention to detail, made the same mistake does little to support your innocence in my mind, since I think you are more competent than he is.

Without overwhelming evidence of your innocence, I think you should die. This is early in the game, and you are too high risk and low reward for you to be left alive.

where I summarized why I think FL should be the lynch, and QUICKLY!

now you have forgotten why you agreed with me?

[Adel]

Adel's point about high-risk is a legitimate one, but I don't think the case against FL is enough to justify a lynch.

it is day 1, you are not presenting a clear alternative case, and this is definitely a time sensitive thing I am trying to pull off. The faster we lynch FL the better.

WE NEED MORE VOTES ON FL AND QUICKLY!

[Adel]

@ckd i dont think that he understands that he is actually going to get lynched quickly, and using his one-shot prematurity will out him as scum, so he is going to be cautious about using it. Also, he has a real life, and I don't think he is staying on top of this game right now. We do have a chance to quicklynch him without him using his oneshot, if we can get four more votes before he figures out that it is either use it or lose it time.