Mini 817: Chosen (Game Over!)

[Papa Zito]

I'll re-read the case against Rai, but my top suspect is still MM.

You willing to switch at deadline?

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, Zorblag. Maybe my lack of experience in a mountainous setup is coloring my perspective but I'm not seeing the Chosen mechanic as particularly important. My opinion is that we've already squeezed all the blood from that stone with the lists you requested and it's time to move on.

Mitey, I think you owe us some analysis of the game. Top 3 suspects?

[Zorblag]

Special Ed, there is certainly a benefit to using a random order, some sort of popcorn system or a voting system to determine how lists like the one I was asking for are given but they all cut down on the speed with which the information gets out there and I didn't want to tie up the game like that. As it was, I think that people made their lists after I asked for them with their next couple posts in all cases. I don't get the impression that anyone was stalling. Although scum might have held out on posting theirs till towards the end simply by not posting at all, all that I was looking for for immediate use was a general shape of who people thought would be excluded as the chosen and I got that.

Beyond that we will be able to look at when people gave their lists and who is on them when we learn alignments. If it turns out that scum held out till the end then we'll know they were more likely to have been trying to blend in. If they went early then we'll know that they couldn't have been doing that.

If everyone who's not voting for Raivann could currently make their strongest case for anyone else they choose that would be great. We don't want to be risking going to deadline without a lynch so if we're going to shift our attention we should start doing that as soon as possible.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Papa Zito, it looks like we are going to disagree here and so be it. The chosen mechanic adds an entire new path by which the town can win and has the potential to break this game open for us. In any case, for now we've got someone who you find suspicious and I find both suspicious and unlikely to be the chosen. I suspect that the difference in philosophy doesn't have to complicate things at this time.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[MiteyMouse]

Yeah Zorblag...I seem to have become a bit tunnel visioned.

My vote for Papa is due to both him cuddling and the idea that he is less likely to be the chosen. More than that it is the idea that you he and Zorblag are switching codes back and forth about Herodotus.

I agree that the chosen is important and it would be better to keep them alive at this point. I'm willing to go along with the lynching of one of us with the higher amount of exclusions. I do think that this should be a secondary considereation though and that Scum hunting should come first. Which is kind of funny coming from me I know.

I'm going to be doing a better read but, it may not be until tomorrow after work. As, I said, I think that I have gotten tunnelled and want to look at the thread with fresh eyes tomorrow.

Now as a personal aside. The Deadline is the start of my Birthda...it would make me sad if I was to die on my Birthday...hehehe!

[Special Ed]

My vote for Papa is due to both him cuddling and the idea that he is less likely to be the chosen. More than that it is the idea that you he and Zorblag are switching codes back and forth about Herodotus.

Do you not think it was possible that Zorb was passing a message about Papa to Herod?

Can anyone give me isight into why sometimes the quote button works and sometimes it doesn't?

[Special Ed]

I think I'm harboring a suspicion of Mitey. It might be just the difference in play though between here and other sites. But her style is remarkably different. Or maybe as she gains experience she's learning that she doesn't have to post all the time and respond to everything.

Still, the jumping to a quick vote for the 'passing a code' which I'll agree may be plausible, but still isn't strong, coupled with a real lack of insight and ivestigation from her is unusual.

[Herodotus]

Do you not think it was possible that Zorb was passing a message about Papa to Herod?

Can anyone give me isight into why sometimes the quote button works and sometimes it doesn't?

I too was wondering why MM wasn't examining that scenario.

Maybe your login session is expired? I've seen the same thing happen on rare occasions. There is a thread here about it. I'm not sure whether it will give you a solution, but you could post there if it doesn't.

[MiteyMouse]

My vote for Papa is due to both him cuddling and the idea that he is less likely to be the chosen. More than that it is the idea that you he and Zorblag are switching codes back and forth about Herodotus.

Do you not think it was possible that Zorb was passing a message about Papa to Herod?

Oh dear...you are welcomed to mock me but, that did not occur to me...

Yeah...fresh eyes are necessary.

And Ed...I told you way back when that my play style here is quite different than when you usually see of me.

[Zorblag]

Special Ed, your description of what you're expecting from Mitey Mouse is surprising to me based on the two games I've played with her here (Newbie Game 749 and Newbie Game 791.) Could you link me any games where she did post all the time and respond to everything?

As for the communication tell that she's using against me, the context is as follows (and I discussed it a bit earlier): I replaced into NG 749 to a scummy looking partner. I needed to try to figure out whether he wanted me to bus him so I put up a PBPA which found him scummy and then asked if he and MiteyMouse had any previous experience when I already knew they were in an ongoing game together. The only communication that was supposed to happen there was that he could lie to me if he wanted me to bus him and then later claim that because the game was ongoing it wasn't really a lie. It was taking advantage of a marginal case about experience that people have and an ongoing game. It turns out that he didn't even notice that from his end. He was just trying to give me as many reasons to bus him as he could as that was his plan from before I had replaced in.

Taking this and thinking that I'm somehow using the same format of question to pass information in this game or set up a code assumes that I don't learn that it doesn't work for communication even in an ideal situation when the recipient isn't expecting it, that my partners here would be more sophisticated than a long time, subtle player in Albert B. Rampage and that I've got some information that I want to know or think I can pass on by getting a yes or no answer to a question that I would know would be no this time if I had looked it up prior to asking (and there's no way that town or scum should have motivation to say they've got experience with another player when they don't.)

If people want to respect my ability to deceive to the degree that they'd be willing to go for all of that then I don't know what I'm going to be able to say to help myself here.

As for the quote button, Herodotus's answer is as good as anything I could give. I always quote by hand so it doesn't come up for me.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Special Ed]

Special Ed, your description of what you're expecting from Mitey Mouse is surprising to me based on the two games I've played with her here (Newbie Game 749 and Newbie Game 791.) Could you link me any games where she did post all the time and respond to everything?

If you go to her wiki (not on this site, the one devoted to the sites I frequent), and focus on the Facebook games, especially Hamlet, Superhero, and Labyrinth. You'll see she posts frequently and takes a leading role.

I do have to warn you the Facebook games are set up oddly. There is one huge discussion board with threads for each Day and each Night of all the games jumbled together.

As I checked, I realized that she's not as outspoken or as frequent on the other sites idlemafia, giraffe. I may have been colored by the fact that I notice her more when she's outspoken. (She was Scum in our most recently complete game, The Princess Bride.

I suppose maybe it's a gameplay issue. The games on Facebook are of poor quality played by people who have no real inclination to play seriously or improve their games. The other sites are filled with veterans and people who play seriously.

(As an aside, I encourage you to check on the games on those sites. I think you'll find it different. The strategies seem to be different and the games seem a little more friendly. The NIghts especially when we have a thread to mostly fluff in)

[Special Ed]

As for the quote button, Herodotus's answer is as good as anything I could give. I always quote by hand so it doesn't come up for me.

I figured it out. It doesn't let me quote when I'm not logged in

I guess I didn't figure that my cookies weren't keeping me logged in

[Zorblag]

What is MiteyMouse's username for the facebook games? Is it still MiteyMouse? I'm looking through the Superhero game and not finding her at all thus far.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Special Ed]

What is MiteyMouse's username for the facebook games? Is it still MiteyMouse? I'm looking through the Superhero game and not finding her at all thus far.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

oh, sorry, It's Mandi. I hope she doesn't mind me giving that information up, but I suppose she references it enough on the mafia sites that it's OK. I'm Andy if that interests you at all. and my wiki is here

[Zorblag]

Yeah, I figured out based on some things said in another game and the general speech patterns (and the avatar) that it must be Mandi. Thus far I'm on day two of Superheroes and I don't see the play you describe at all. I need to finish the game and take a look at one of the ones you listed where she's town though.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

Hmm, I've now read through both Hamlet and Superheroes (well, skimmed and looked at what MiteyMouse contributed anyhow.) I think that there is a difference in contribution in those games from what I've seen here but that it seems to be in the end game. For both games (one as scum and one as town) the contribution the first couple days was much more in line with what I've seen here. Any leading of the town in both cases came towards the latter half of the games and I would not describe early game posting in either case as frequent or addressing everything that came up.

I wonder if Special Ed would care to comment on that?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Special Ed]

Hmm, I've now read through both Hamlet and Superheroes (well, skimmed and looked at what MiteyMouse contributed anyhow.) I think that there is a difference in contribution in those games from what I've seen here but that it seems to be in the end game. For both games (one as scum and one as town) the contribution the first couple days was much more in line with what I've seen here. Any leading of the town in both cases came towards the latter half of the games and I would not describe early game posting in either case as frequent or addressing everything that came up.

I wonder if Special Ed would care to comment on that?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I'd love to. Your opinion varies greatly from mine. She's a leader on facebook and a person people turn to. She involves herself in most discussions of strategy and often pushes people to follow her strategy. In the most recent completed game, Labyrinth (I didn't play) She came up with a tactic to try to form a committee of most trusted people to lead the Town and lynch from the others. As I recall, she was eventually lynched but flipped Town.

I do have to admit though, that she is quieter on the sites with the more experienced players.

you skimmed the facebook games? Isn't that annoying? so many pages and no search function.

[Zorblag]

Yes, it was annoying which is why I only did it for two games; one scum and one town.

I didn't look at Labyrinth but what you're describing there does not sound like what I saw in the other two games. I think it was Superheroes where she largely lurked through the first 4 or 5 days and was only active in the 6th (and was then lynched right away in the 7th.) Hamlet she did start to take a more active role in the 3rd or 4th day but that seemed to be because she was a vig that got cop information from someone else or some such crazy dynamic. She was almost obligated to help direct the town with that role. The first couple days she wasn't any more active than she has been here so far as I saw.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Special Ed]

Yes, it was annoying which is why I only did it for two games; one scum and one town.

I didn't look at Labyrinth but what you're describing there does not sound like what I saw in the other two games. I think it was Superheroes where she largely lurked through the first 4 or 5 days and was only active in the 6th (and was then lynched right away in the 7th.) Hamlet she did start to take a more active role in the 3rd or 4th day but that seemed to be because she was a vig that got cop information from someone else or some such crazy dynamic. She was almost obligated to help direct the town with that role. The first couple days she wasn't any more active than she has been here so far as I saw.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

Well, our opinions vary. In any case, It's not enough to lead me to vote for her, as I've seen this less active style of play from her as both Scum and Town as well.

[TDC]

Okay, so the synposis of the past page is that MM plays slightly differently on facebook.

I still agree with the Troll that given how little information we have, not lynching the Chosen is much easier (both by pure chance and through deduction) than lynching scum.
And provides much more information if it fails.

[hohum]

I don't think there's been any changes in the vote count since the last time I checked; however, I don't know for sure. I'll go back and reread the topic later, when I'm not drunk. Either way, this post is reserved for a vote count. Thanks!

[BloodCovenent]

Raivann

:

Zorblag

,

afatchic

,

Nuwen

,

Papa Zito

(random as he doesn't know the players in the game)

Did anyone else notice that Rai excluded himself?

I'll re-read the case against Rai, but my top suspect is still MM.

You willing to switch at deadline?

Yea, lynches are always important.

Regarding PZ's thoughts on playing the game like any regular newbie game, isn't a bad idea, but Having Zorb's thoughts, and his worrying about the Chosen is also good. The hard part is finding the balance, because if we can't kill scum, then we can't win. That's why worrying just about the chosen one isn't enough in itself. It almost feels that we haven't done that much scum hunting, due to this whole "chosen" idea looming over our heads. But, anyways, more scum hunting to come day 2.

Also, can anyone show me, post a link, or summarize what the case against Rai is? I looked back to where he was replaced and I couldn't find it. I remember some remotely scummy things that Nuwen posted, early day 1, but i wasn't sure if they had relevance to the case against Rai.

[TDC]

Raivann

:

Zorblag

,

afatchic

,

Nuwen

,

Papa Zito

(random as he doesn't know the players in the game)

Did anyone else notice that Rai excluded himself?

Which tells you what?

[BloodCovenent]

Raivann

:

Zorblag

,

afatchic

,

Nuwen

,

Papa Zito

(random as he doesn't know the players in the game)

Did anyone else notice that Rai excluded himself?

Which tells you what?

o.o Frankly, i'm not sure what to think of it. Looks like he just randomly wrote the names down without giving it much thought, without realizing that he put himself down.

[Zorblag]

Regarding PZ's thoughts on playing the game like any regular newbie game, isn't a bad idea, but Having Zorb's thoughts, and his worrying about the Chosen is also good. The hard part is finding the balance,

because if we can't kill scum, then we can't win. That's why worrying just about the chosen one isn't enough in itself.

It almost feels that we haven't done that much scum hunting, due to this whole "chosen" idea looming over our heads. But, anyways, more scum hunting to come day 2.

No, in this game we

can

win if we don't kill the scum. That's why the chosen dynamic is such a big deal. So long as we never lynch the chosen one we win at the end whether we've caught scum or not. Scum hunting is still good but avoiding lynching the chosen is equally good in this game and I'm pretty sure doing the latter helps do the former anyhow in the.

Both TDC and Raivann listed themself among those they might exclude. TDC also gave more than just 4 options and gave reasoning for his choices. I don't think that it particularly benefits someone to list themself so I didn't bring it up earlier.

As for why I'm voting for Raivann, here's what I initially would have said:

Troll knows that Nuwen has taken the time to look at Archon’s previous games as she identifies his voting patterns at the start of games despite only having been in one game with him (Mini 734 where he replaced after she was killed.) In this particular game the mafia would have had a strong reason to take a look at other games people have played in when deciding who to exclude from being the chosen. Further, Archon’s play in Troll’s experience be that of scum bait and him be a likely candidate not to be exluded as the chosen should him be town. Votes for him at the start of the game will inherently be suspicious to Troll.

Past then Raivann has kept his vote on Herodotus after the discussion that there's been about the chosen, the list he gave had the issues I brought up, I think it's pretty unlikely Raivann is the chosen and others I agree with suspect Raivann for other reasons. It's enough for me to put my vote there.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

EBWOP:

... and others I

agree with

think are likely to be town suspect Raivann for other reasons. It's enough for me to put my vote there.

I'm not sold on all of their reasons but I don't have to be. They can give them again if they want.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh