The Manor: Chzo Mafia (Game Over!)

[hohum]

Zaz's vote is very telling. Couple of pages ago she was advocating a stepho lynch. Now there's an active wagon and in the middle of the discussion she totally refocuses on Naomi.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok so I think we can narrow Set's lie down to the part where she says "the best we can get is a draw". This would indicate she is scum trying to get confirmed town status & doc protection.

The fact she couldn't give them away is irrelevant.

[ZazieR]

Zaz's vote is very telling. Couple of pages ago she was advocating a stepho lynch. Now there's an active wagon and in the middle of the discussion she totally refocuses on Naomi.

I was voting Naomi before the Setael discussion.
Setael is at L-1. And as I just showed, I don't think there are powerroles.

[Stephoscope]

Xtoxm was SK. He's an independant role, so he doesn't care who dies as long as it isn't him. I've seen enough reasons why you are lying and I've pointed them out.
As for Pablo, it doesn't prove anything.

Nothing is "proven" in mafia until someone flips, but explain to me how I'm lying when I clearly tried to save Naomi after trying to have her lynched the day before, and there's been no counterclaim and it's absurd to think there'd be a Chzo game without Trilby. Explain how I cleared Pablo and then he flipped Innocent, just like I said he was, after his having hinted nothing of the sort. Explain how there has been no Janine counterclaim and no cop counterclaim (other than Naomi's, whose roleclaim is legitimate) and every damned thing shows that I'm telling the truth, and yet you continue to harp on PM stuff that the mod has no obligation to keep consistent, and misrepresentations of what I have said. It is really becoming tiresome. I am going to investigate someone tonight, and if I'm still alive tomorrow, I'll report the results and I have 100% confidence that I'll be exactly right. How many more times will I need to do this for you to believe me? Seriously? Do you know what the chances are that I would guess right three, four times in a row?

Rules don't lie. Meaning that the win con for town is to kill every Evil player. Not to kill every Evil player and to burn down the house. It also doesn't make sense to get a draw if we don't burn down the house or a loss.
Reasons have been stated why she's very likely lying. You haven't commented on any of them. You are basing this all on one rule, while another rule states that she's lying.

The rules didn't say anything about the win condition not changing, they didn't say anything about blood that would kill you if you drank it, they didn't say anything about a shotgun that it wasn't smart to use, and yet they DID say this would be a different type of game. I am not "basing this all on one rule", I am basing it on me thinking Setael is town and Pablo's request for protection and the fact that I can investigate Setael tonight if it will make everyone feel better.

[Amished]

Zaz: It doesn't say fellow humans, it says I win with the humans (threats to the humans have been eliminated.) Also, 13 further solidifies my stance that humans/innocents can be used interchangeably. This *should* help to clear stepho (and therefore Naomi) in your eyes, but you vote for Naomi (who's NK-immune) anyways.

@hohum: Happy scumday! And I agree that Zaz's vote is extremely odd and at this point in time I wouldn't doubt set and zaz being scum together.

@Lamont: That and I don't think that the best we can do is get a draw as the game with the manor setting the house on fire didn't do a damn thing as the three parts of John Defoe were still intact and the manor was still around in the last game. Burning the house down should do absolutely nothing at all.

@Steph: I'm willing to lynch Zaz right now, but if we lynch Set (which I'm also willing to do) would you investigate her? This would help clear up a lot of things for me, and probably for the whole town. You'll get one of my protections.

[Stephoscope]

Also, for those interested, rule 13 is a nice rule:

13. There will be crazy shit, descriptions of unpleasant actions, and things you may well not understand at all in this game. It is not intended to be particularly fair, nice, or easy for

the town/innocents

. You may be required to actually think, instead of playing follow the *insert role/s here* Get used to it. ithurtsithurtsirthurts

I just love the bolded. Don't you guys agree, Naomi, Stepho and Amished? Shall we also look at rule 3?:

3.

Innocents

win if they destroy all Evil players. The Evil characters win when they have a majority, and are deemed powerful enough to over-power any and all remaining factions.

Vote Naomi

Just to make this perfectly clear in case some bandwagon might start up, Naomi is Trilby. She claimed it, I investigated her, her claim is legitimate. There has been no Trilby counterclaim, and it's absurd to think there'd be a Chzo game without Trilby, who is, you know, the protagonist of the whole thing. Please do not vote for Naomi. Thank you.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Rule 3 has been slightly edited to make it's meaning more clearer. Please check the OP.

[Stephoscope]

@Steph: I'm willing to lynch Zaz right now, but if we lynch Set (which I'm also willing to do) would you investigate her? This would help clear up a lot of things for me, and probably for the whole town. You'll get one of my protections.

I would prefer to lynch dramonic, because I think he's the most likely to be scum. I'm not crazy about a Zazier lynch, because while it's possible that she's scum, I think it's more likely that she's just insane. I absolutely do not want to lynch Setael, I think it's a far better idea to lynch someone else and then let me investigate her.

If everyone is convinced that Zazier and Setael need our scrutiny, then please, let's lynch Zazier and leave Setael for tomorrow. But the ideal situation, at least for me, would be to lynch dramonic, then let me investigate some unnamed person, hopefully catch scum, and then let them squirm for a while tomorrow.

[Stephoscope]

Hmm. I'll admit that on the surface the win condition, which the mod has specifically addressed, seems pretty clear--but is there a chance that burning down the house is absolutely necessary to destroy all Evil characters?

Pablo was a CONFIRMED TOWNIE, and he requested protection when he got those matches. Setael is doing the same thing, and claiming the reason. We really need to be careful here.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Lamont: That and I don't think that the best we can do is get a draw as the game with the manor setting the house on fire didn't do a damn thing as the three parts of John Defoe were still intact and the manor was still around in the last game. Burning the house down should do absolutely nothing at all.

Well I'm willing to admit that the matches are required for the town to win since this is a game about the manor. I think that the fact they can't be given away indicates they are definitely useful in some way.

I have to interpret Set's claim as an attempt to become confirmed town as scum because it definitely does not make sense that SHE has to live for the town to win. It is Set's fault that it does not make sense. Set is right that she needs to be voted.

[Lamont_Cranston]

. Innocents win if they destroy all Evil

characters

. The Evil characters win when they have a majority, and are deemed powerful enough to over-power any and all remaining factions.

I don't see where this helps Set's case at all. However I can see where the matches are necessary to destroy say the "last evil character" but for Set to say SHE has to live for this to occur is so over the top scummy and its her fault for being lynched here.

[ZazieR]

Xtoxm was SK. He's an independant role, so he doesn't care who dies as long as it isn't him. I've seen enough reasons why you are lying and I've pointed them out.
As for Pablo, it doesn't prove anything.

Nothing is "proven" in mafia until someone flips, but explain to me how I'm lying when I clearly tried to save Naomi after trying to have her lynched the day before, and there's been no counterclaim and it's absurd to think there'd be a Chzo game without Trilby. Explain how I cleared Pablo and then he flipped Innocent, just like I said he was, after his having hinted nothing of the sort. Explain how there has been no Janine counterclaim and no cop counterclaim (other than Naomi's, whose roleclaim is legitimate) and every damned thing shows that I'm telling the truth, and yet you continue to harp on PM stuff that the mod has no obligation to keep consistent, and misrepresentations of what I have said. It is really becoming tiresome. I am going to investigate someone tonight, and if I'm still alive tomorrow, I'll report the results and I have 100% confidence that I'll be exactly right. How many more times will I need to do this for you to believe me? Seriously? Do you know what the chances are that I would guess right three, four times in a row?

Check your scum QT and you'll find all the answers for you there
It's not hard to fake claim and adapt the way you play to it if scum know that there are only Innocents. This also gives you the chance to have every 'investigation' correct.

Rules don't lie. Meaning that the win con for town is to kill every Evil player. Not to kill every Evil player and to burn down the house. It also doesn't make sense to get a draw if we don't burn down the house or a loss.
Reasons have been stated why she's very likely lying. You haven't commented on any of them. You are basing this all on one rule, while another rule states that she's lying.

The rules didn't say anything about the win condition not changing, they didn't say anything about blood that would kill you if you drank it, they didn't say anything about a shotgun that it wasn't smart to use, and yet they DID say this would be a different type of game. I am not "basing this all on one rule", I am basing it on me thinking Setael is town and Pablo's request for protection and the fact that I can investigate Setael tonight if it will make everyone feel better.

All those things are based upon game mechanics. Those have nothing to do with win conditions. Invalid comparison.
Logic shows Setael is lying. We don't know why Pablo requested doc protection as the matches can do something different than what Setael is claiming. And you are very likely lying about your role.

(Will post more when I get back)

[Stephoscope]

.for Set to say SHE has to live for this to occur is so over the top scummy

I do acknowledge this, but Pablo wanted to live too and he's confirmed...

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Zazier:

Is it OK that Stepho investigates you tonight because I don't like how you have been PM rolefishing. I don't think you actually believe there are no power roles. I think you have been actively probing through everyone's role PM and testing for reactions to determine who is a vanilla and who isn't. I've been watching this with disgust and horror and Amished's post has finally given me the courage to say something about it. We can resolve this issue right here and now tonight.

[Stephoscope]

Check your scum QT and you'll find all the answers for you there
It's not hard to fake claim and adapt the way you play to it if scum know that there are only Innocents. This also gives you the chance to have every 'investigation' correct.

Luckily, there are several of us who know that there aren't "only Innocents". Sorry you supposedly didn't get a sweet role. Maybe next time.

All those things are based upon game mechanics. Those have nothing to do with win conditions. Invalid comparison.
Logic shows Setael is lying. We don't know why Pablo requested doc protection as the matches can do something different than what Setael is claiming. And you are very likely lying about your role.

(Will post more when I get back)

Now, I certainly know you need to be careful about trusting anyone in mafia, but is there ANYONE you think ISN'T lying? Because the guy you seemed to like most of all flipped scum, and the conspiracy that would have to be pulled off for all the claimed power roles to actually be scum, which you seem to believe, boggles the mind. And keep in mind that I know with 100% certainty that both Naomi and I are town, and I would be absolutely shocked if Amished's claim isn't legitimate.

[Lamont_Cranston]

.for Set to say SHE has to live for this to occur is so over the top scummy

I do acknowledge this, but Pablo wanted to live too and he's confirmed...

I can see where Pablo would ask for protection because the matches are connected to the wincon and he bluffed by saying they were useless. I then can see where Set saw this and decided to augment it to her advantage and say SHE was required to have the matches for the town to win.

I'm going to come out and say it. The only way she is not scum is if she has clearly misunderstood how the matches work and in that case its HER FAULT. She needs to be lynched now either way.

[Setael]

My guess is the house itself is considered a character. The first pm I got basically said that it deserves to be burnt down.

It is possible that if I'm killed someone else could pick up the matches. I was specifically told that they are not transferable and that my "task" now is to survive to end game with the matches. I can't see any way to interpret that but the way I did. It's possible though that if I die someone else could pick them up and it would then be their "task" to survive to endgame with them.

[hohum]

didn't the mod say something about items being dropped going poof at the end of each day? Why would the matches be the exception to that rule?

Also that basically gives you a free pass to endgame. You need to be compelling with your arguments to avoid a lynch at this point.

[Setael]

I'm waiting to hear back from the mod. It wouldn't be an issue of them being dropped, but rather someone taking them from my corpse. I think it's a definite possibility and would appreciate not being hammered until I get an answer. If someone can take them once I'm dead it's not nearly as big of a deal if I die.

If this is the case though, I don't understand why I would be til that my task is to keep mysel alive until endgame. I also don't understand why I wasn't told that until I asked for clarification. If it's a matte of the town winning or not, you'd think he'd have mentioned it initially.

I'm not saying any of it makes that much sense. How am I supposed to make these great, logical arguments to save myself when I don't think it's reasonable any more than anyone else does. The smartest thing would be to investigate me tonight. Have we been playing smart? No. (Day 1 and Day 2 no lynch... Impressive.) Do I think I can convince this town (and the scum who are thrilled
to support this wagon) not to lynch me when reason and mafia custom is against me? Nope.

In case someone quick hammers I think zazier and dramonic are scum and possibly Tajo. I gave you a post # Tajo (you in iso). You said I was obv town and didn't say why, though I assumed it was because I was trying to get people to stop claiming Innocent.

[hohum]

I don't think anyone is going to quick hammer. If they do, they need to be lynched themselves. I don't have an issue leaving you at L-1 for now.

Back to your claim: if your PM actually says that you need to survive with the matches until end game then why would you need clarification from the mod?

Knowing the way people conduct themselves on MS why would you make such an absurd-sounding claim if it were indeed true? Wouldn't it have been better to silently stay in the background? Giving off too much information is a bad thing and nobody is EVER going to give you a free pass to endgame around here.

[dramonic]

Unvote

The fact that KoC changed "player" for "character" is making me rather uneasy and very unsure about Set's lie... I'd be more confortable with Stepho investigating Set before we lynch.

Also, why do you want to lynch me stepho?

[Lamont_Cranston]

I do have something I need to post. I received a couple pms from the mod after asking for clarification. The matches are not transferable. I have to keep them and

I must be alive at end game for a town win.

If I'm not alive at endgame the best the town can get is a draw

.

The mod also confirmed that the scum do not need the matches to win.

This seems pretty messed up to me but I guess it's evened out since we have a multiple protect doc. I thought about not sharing these pms since it paints a NK target on my forehead but I don't think we can risk me being NKd anyway for whatever reason, not having shared this info with the town.

So yeah. Doc, you need to protect me tonight.

My guess is the house itself is considered a character. The first pm I got basically said that it deserves to be burnt down.

It is possible that if I'm killed someone else could pick up the matches. I was specifically told that they are not transferable and that my "task" now is to survive to end game with the matches. I can't see any way to interpret that but the way I did.

It's possible though that if I die someone else could pick them up and it would then be their "task" to survive to endgame with them

.

HANG HER HIGH!

[Lamont_Cranston]

Unvote

The fact that KoC changed "player" for "character" is making me rather uneasy and very unsure about Set's lie... I'd be more confortable with Stepho investigating Set before we lynch.

Also, why do you want to lynch me stepho?

You're falling for it. There is no connection between the house being a character and her saying SHE has to live. Don't fall for it.

[Setael]

Got a response. KoC might be a bastard mod, but at least he's prompt.

If I am killed the matches will be destroyed. So there Lamont, I did interpret it right. If I am lynched, the best the town can get is a draw. If you don't like it, take it up with the mod. You'll probably get the response I got for complaining that one of our power roles had never played mafia before in her life, which was basically 'too bad. I'm intentionally screwing with you. Deal with it.'

[ZazieR]

Wrong. If the house must be destroyed to win, we lose.
It says ALL Evil characters. So if the house is one, we can't destroy all.