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[Ren Hoek]

I plead the fifth.

[Ren Hoek]

Now that you seem a little more calm, could you try to explain your reaction to pressure and your vote for Budja again? It really sounds like you were just saying "his vote for me was irrational because I'm town", and then when multiple people explaned to you that his vote for you was completly rational, your reaction was to basically flip out.

It appears that you want to put the pressure back on me. Is it because your scumbuddies are in danger?

There may be players that found Budja's vote rational but I seriously doubt that they have done due diligence and considered the pro-town aspects of my play. I did not say his vote was irrational because I'm town, rather, I found his vote to be half-baked because it was not based on a holistic analysis of my play. If Budja is scum, his play is actually very rational.

You misrepresented the reasons for attacking you, claiming people were attackign you just because you were "agressive", while at the same time you were attacking people simply for voting you (which actually does seem like you were attacking people for being agressive to me).

There are pro-town alternative explanations for my behavior. It find it unsettling that a wagon nearly led to my lynch over nothing. Agressive is nice, but reckless is potentially harmful.

You called FarieLord scum just because he pointed out that people were voting for you for a valid reason, while not even responding to all the people who were carefully explaining why they were voting for you.

I did respond. I found FL to be opportunistic.

Then you called me scum, claiming I was "looking foward to the nightkill" or something, and again it appears that it was only because I was attackign you.

I'm not very confident that you're town. I might call you scum again later.

Could you explain any of that, Ren? At this point, it's your reaction to pressure that really is making me keep my vote on you.

Enjoy your tunnel.

[Adel]

I plead the fifth.

which other alts have you used in the last 6 months?
By providing a full and accurate answer I can use your total site meta to determine your alignment with a much better chance of being correct.

[vollkan]

I have a strong reason to believe Ren Hoek is town. Everyone voting for him needs to explain what they think about the self-vote.

I think the fact that he put himself at lynch -1, and then the scum killed someone on his wagon, certanly does not make him look any better. Adel is probably right that the scum were hoping to get bus driven to a higher prirority target, but still.

Your language is murky here. Are you saying that the fact he self-voted and scum killed a wagoner is a scumtell?

Its funny you say that, since I don't think I have any votes on me at all

*blink* How on earth is that relevant?

This. And to those who are saying that what FL said doesn't make sense from a town mindset, how exactly does it make sense from a scum mindset? It's a null tell. That's it.

I explained this last page (though, I don't agree it can't possibly make sense from a town mindset; it just seems unlikely).

crywolf20084, vollkan, TDC and Budja (& Nuwen or replacements) are behind the curve on activity.

Please compare and contrast the cases against Ren, Sensfan, and FL, summarizing the strengths and weaknesses of the case against each, and please conclude by telling us who you think is scum.

Ren

• Overreaching on Scot
  
• The "the case against me is't logical" - smear discrediting
  
• WIFOMing about his actions
  
• The contradiction I pointed out in his statements about the CD

SensFan

• The points against SL are so solid...they don't need explanation
  
• His attack on FL regarding the "nothing to start off" point is absolute bollocks. It relies on a particular reading of what was said which is effectively invalidated by the context. Thus, it suggests looking for reasons to attack, rather than making a balanced judgment.
  
• The bit I quote above about him having no votes on him raises an entirely irrelevant point in seeking to discredit Ren's attack on him
  
• Accuses Ren of strawmanning and misrepresenting him - easy way to smear
  
• His total non sequitur about opportunism

FL

• As I said "if FL said she understood your plan, that entails that she understands that part of the rationale for the plan is that it allows for a situation where scum targeting a high profile target can have that target busdriven with a less high profile target. As such, it wouldn't make sense for her to appear so surprised by the death of Seraphim or, more accurately, for her to say that scum "chose" Seraphim (since, given the earlier statement, she should recognise the prospect of busdriving)"

Relative Evaluation:

For starters, I like the FL case least of all. Innocent misunderstanding is possible, but I can't see what the understanding would be then. More potently, I think, is Budja's point about the prospect of it simply being a failure to "join the dots". If anything, I would probably expect such a failure to come from town more than scum; town having less of a reason to be immediately thinking strategically about the result in terms of busdriving. Since, aside from that, FL hasn't leaped out at me as scummy, I don't think it is a strong case.

The Sens and Ren cases are similar and I frankly have trouble weighing them up. For what it's worth, the biggest single point on Ren, in my view, is the contradiction. The biggest on Sens is the FL attack.

[Goatrevolt]

I'm back. I'll catch up on everything tomorrow.

[Ren Hoek]

@ Adel - stop. You're just going to have to live without a meta.

@ vollkan

Limiting your analysis to 3 players (suggested by another player, Adel) doesn't sit well with me. Are you unable or unwilling to think for yourself and put pressure on players that have gotten away with lurking or flying under the radar, for instance? Adel himself isn't worthy of being looked at? What about Budja?

[Yosarian2]

I have a strong reason to believe Ren Hoek is town. Everyone voting for him needs to explain what they think about the self-vote.

I think the fact that he put himself at lynch -1, and then the scum killed someone on his wagon, certanly does not make him look any better. Adel is probably right that the scum were hoping to get bus driven to a higher prirority target, but still.

Your language is murky here. Are you saying that the fact he self-voted and scum killed a wagoner is a scumtell?

I think that if he was at lynch -1 and pro-town, scum would have had more reason to kill someone not on his wagon, since that would have lead to a "free lynch" for them. It's not conclusive, because scum might really have thought the bus driver would target sereph since he hadn't said anything, or something like that, but it certanly makes him look worse in my opinion.

[Yosarian2]

There may be players that found Budja's vote rational but I seriously doubt that they have done due diligence and considered the pro-town aspects of my play. I did not say his vote was irrational because I'm town, rather, I found his vote to be half-baked because it was not based on a holistic analysis of my play. If Budja is scum, his play is actually very rational.

Eh. Considering the very limited amount of information we had at the time, I think Budja's vote had more basis then anything anyone else was doing. It really looked like good, logical, pro-town scumhunting to me, albiet scumhunting with very limited information; he came to a logical conclusion that your actions in regards to scot made sense from a scum perspective, while seeming kind of a reach from a town perspective. That seems like just the kind of good, agressive play you were just saying was good, and yet you were voting him for it.

You misrepresented the reasons for attacking you, claiming people were attackign you just because you were "agressive", while at the same time you were attacking people simply for voting you (which actually does seem like you were attacking people for being agressive to me).

There are pro-town alternative explanations for my behavior. It find it unsettling that a wagon nearly led to my lynch over nothing. Agressive is nice, but reckless is potentially harmful.

I don't think the wagon would have gone nearly as far if it wasn't for your OMGUS looking reaction to having two votes on you.

You called FarieLord scum just because he pointed out that people were voting for you for a valid reason, while not even responding to all the people who were carefully explaining why they were voting for you.

I did respond. I found FL to be opportunistic.

You responded once, to the initial allegations; then several people pointed out that your response really wasn't correct and the inital allegations were logical. You didn't respond to any of that, except emotionally.

Could you explain any of that, Ren? At this point, it's your reaction to pressure that really is making me keep my vote on you.

Enjoy your tunnel.

Heh. I'm not tunneling; I'm also looking at Sensfan, I commented on the FL attack, and I also mentioned that I'm having second thoughts on you because I kind of like your sensfan attack. I just also wanted to explain exactally why I am keeping my vote on you, especlly since Budja's initial logic is now a fairly small part of the reason.

[SensFan]

Can someone sum up why so many people see me as scummy all of a sudden? Cause I'm really not getting it.

I'd go with Volkan's list, except he appears to not really care about looking at the attack in detail, given he missed the relevence about me not having any votes, and threw some general nondescript about how certain words I used are "an easy way to smear", without saying why they were bad in this case.

[Yosarian2]

Well, Sensfan, your attack against FL looked like you were misrepresenting him.

More to the point was your odd reluctance to answer the question Ren posed, which was "why do you think the case against FL was so solid?"

In these two posts, it looks like you choice to verbally fence with Ren rather then actualy just answer the question, and I don't understand why a pro-town person would resist explaining their case on someone.

...but instead of asking me to explain the points more clearly, he asked me to tell him why they were good.

What's the diff? You're the one that called them very solid. What's wrong with asking you to explain that?

You never said you didn't understand the points raised, you said you didn't think they were solid. If you understand the points being raised against FL, and you don't think they're worth much, how can I possibly convince you otherwise?

Also, I notice that you failed to respond to all the other points I raised, about how you strawmanned and misrepresented me.

If you understand the points being raised against FL, and you don't think they're worth much, how can I possibly convince you otherwise?

Maybe they seem weak because I don't understand them. Why don't you try? Unless you don't really think the case is "very solid" and you are merely being opportunistic scum.

Are you seriously saying that your stance is 'I don't know if I understand the points'?

Either you understand them and think they're weak, in which case you can't expect me to tell you why I think they're strong.
Or you don't understand them, in which case you can't call me scummy for understanding them and being suspicious of FL because of it.

You need to pick one of the two and stick to it. So which one is it?

[Adel]

@ Adel - stop. You're just going to have to live without a meta.

you have two prods. I suspect that your other alts were busy posting while you were neglecting this game.

[Adel]

unvote, vote: crywolf20084

she has plenty of time to make plenty of tother post: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... ywolf20084
lurker-scum in this game

[Yosarian2]

unvote, vote: crywolf20084

she has plenty of time to make plenty of tother post: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... ywolf20084
lurker-scum in this game

She's also been on scumchat a lot, which dosn't help her case.

[Ren Hoek]

Crywolf, the phone's for you.

unvote, vote: crywolf

[crywolf20084]

Jump down my throat all you want. I don't want to read this tonight. I'm too mentally exhausted.

[scotmany12]

Jump down my throat all you want. I don't want to read this tonight. I'm too mentally exhausted.

Didn't you say yesterday you were going to post today?

[Adel]

meeting Yhtill in the mountains tomorrow.

V/LA for 86 hours from this post.

[SensFan]

Well, Sensfan, your attack against FL looked like you were misrepresenting him.

More to the point was your odd reluctance to answer the question Ren posed, which was "why do you think the case against FL was so solid?"

In these two posts, it looks like you choice to verbally fence with Ren rather then actualy just answer the question, and I don't understand why a pro-town person would resist explaining their case on someone.

Well, I still don't see why/where I misrepresented FL at all, and am getting frustrated that so many people seem to think I did.

As it pertains to Ren's questions, the case was very clear in the thread, explained by both Adel and I. Had Ren asked me to explain the case again for him, I would gladly have done so, but he was saying "I understand the case, think its weak, but will vote you unless you can tell me why its strong", which is a clear no-win situation for me.

[curiouskarmadog]

still waiting on these answers.

Yes, I'm very happy with my vote on Ren right now, though I think scot and FL are also likely Scum.

why?..do you think they are all scum together? Why is scot scum?

Ren wraps up his post by calling me opportunistic, despite the fact that (if memory serves), I was the first person to go after FL.

so? What does being the first person to attack have to do with being opportunistic? Your inital attack of FL was a stretch...and fucking huge stretch. you dropped your vote when a bigger wagon arises, and only pick up the attack on FL when Adel does (which I think is another stretch). Now you are trying to paint scot as scum too…..wonder if him voting you has anything to do with it.

[scotmany12]

Well, Sensfan, your attack against FL looked like you were misrepresenting him.

More to the point was your odd reluctance to answer the question Ren posed, which was "why do you think the case against FL was so solid?"

In these two posts, it looks like you choice to verbally fence with Ren rather then actualy just answer the question, and I don't understand why a pro-town person would resist explaining their case on someone.

Well, I still don't see why/where I misrepresented FL at all, and am getting frustrated that so many people seem to think I did.

As it pertains to Ren's questions, the case was very clear in the thread, explained by both Adel and I. Had Ren asked me to explain the case again for him, I would gladly have done so, but he was saying "I understand the case, think its weak, but will vote you unless you can tell me why its strong", which is a clear no-win situation for me.

Then you are being extremely stubborn. He never said he wish the game was starting from scratch, something which you said here:

The fact remains that, if you think the game is stalled, I can't possibly understand why Town would think 'Wow, this game is stalled. I wish we were also starting from scratch, rather than being able to use whatever information was gained from the first phase of Day 1'.

And FL never said he wished the game started from scratch. He said he wished there was a random voting stage. No where does that say "I wish we could start from scratch rather than have these 11 pages to talk about."

And don't couple yourself with Adel. You haven't explained anything sufficiently. Saying it was a no-win situation for you is bullshit. Someone's job as town is to catch scum. If you think you caught scum, you need to convince other people that said person is scum. If someone asks you why the points against someone should be considered strong, you need to do your best to convince that person. You are more concerned about how people perceive you rather than catching scum, which you have shown with your "no-win situation." That's not a pro-town attitude.

[SensFan]

ckd, I've answered those questions.

[Budja]

Sens, it should be very clear to you where you are been accused of misrepping FL.
Look at Yosarian's post 355. You have clearly taken FL out of context, will you accept this and does it affect your opinion of FL?

[Yosarian2]

As it pertains to Ren's questions, the case was very clear in the thread, explained by both Adel and I. Had Ren asked me to explain the case again for him, I would gladly have done so, but he was saying "I understand the case, think its weak, but will vote you unless you can tell me why its strong", which is a clear no-win situation for me.

How is it a no-win situation for you?

If you had just answered the question and explained again exactally what the entire case was against FL and why you thought it was strong, then it may have convinced people you were right, it probably would have gotten more discussion going about the other details of your case, it may have gotten a response from FL, and it would have made it easier for people to see where you are coming from. If you are pro-town, and you think FL is likely scum, then those would all be good things.

[curiouskarmadog]

ckd, I've answered those questions.

ok, please provide the post number...I seemed to have missed it.

[Korts]

OhGodMyLife replaces Nuwen effective immediately.

Vote count and activity check coming up shortly.