Webcomic Wars Mafia: D7- Be Thankful I'm Not The Author

[Vino]

Several things missing here - the reasons why Vino is scummy and comments about any other reasons brought up as to why Lamont was scummy come to mind.

Good to know I'm not the only one who thinks SensFan's lack of logic was scummy.

[roflcopter]

VOTE:Roflcopter

Even with the premise of Percy being possible scum (I still don't know which way to read him yet), I disapprove of setting up multiple lynches.

seriously? do you not understand the concept that i would only chain lynch if the first lynch hits scum? this isn't some kind of if x is town we should lynch y deal.

updating my scum and town lists:

scum

percy
if percy -> korlash
if percy -> rice (unwillingness to commit to a view of percy, blatant chainsaw defense)
vino (seperate from percy)

town

santos
tarhalindur
fishy
serialclergyman

i still owe my own analysis of percy. i'll get to it eventually.

[Tarhalindur]

Several things missing here - the reasons why Vino is scummy and comments about any other reasons brought up as to why Lamont was scummy come to mind.

Good to know I'm not the only one who thinks SensFan's lack of logic was scummy.

First thought when I saw this post: "You're scum, and probably distancing from your partner SensFan".

See, if you thought that SensFan's lack of logic D1 was scummy, why did you never do anything (other than vote) to try to get him lynched? Why not push for his lynch today? Also, where did you actually SAY that you thought SensFan's lack of logic D1 was scummy? I don't remember you doing so, and without that this post is just AGLEED.

So, I looked back through your posts:

You did vote for SensFan D1, but your stated reason is that he should have "known better" than to jump on a "random" D1 bandwagon? Why should he have known better? (Perhaps because he's your scumbuddy and you didn't think it was bussing time?)

Immediately thereafter, he characterizes his vote as "because I want to". Uh, wait... were you or were you not voting him because you thought he was scum?

Your remaining posts concerning SensFan consist of one post accepting his explanation for his vote and three/four posts asking for explanation/advice from SensFan (about random stage tells, explanation of/complaining about the Sucks For Us! tell, and a request for SensFan's thoughts*). In the meantime, you've been attacking Percy or defending yourself.

* - Specific wording:

SensFan,

Don't you have any thoughts on the current situation? Or are you going to spat with Santos more?

Nope, I don't see any pursuit of a SensFan case from you at all. Moreover, as I noted in my case on SensFan, his behavior towards you has been a strong distancing tell.

Vote: SensFan
MFoS: Vino

Percy still needs to answer my question, and the lurkers still need to post.

[Tarhalindur]

Full set of players that have not posted in the last 72 hours and are not V/LA: Tzeentch (still V/LA?), Sironigous (has not posted since D1), Mufasa (has not posted since D1), Santos (barely), SensFan

Mod: Please prod all of these.

Also, note to self: ZazieR needs to start posting NOW or else. She's damn readable, but I need a fair number of posts to do so.

[Percy]

I've just set up my first ever large theme, and I've been a bit busy. I will have a detailed post in 24 hours. Apologies.

[Vino]

I don't think I took SensFan as being quite as scummy as you make me out to have taken him. Even so, the fact that he voted with no logic is exactly why I voted him and I've said so before:

Anyhow to say I was so scummy with no reason so early in the game didn't make sense so I voted you.

...which hmm seems to be exactly the same reason why you say that post is scummy.

Several things missing here - the reasons why Vino is scummy and comments about any other reasons brought up as to why Lamont was scummy come to mind.

You don't see pursuit of a case from me because I didn't feel strongly enough about it to make a case. It's odd to me that you're trying to frame me as caring more about a case against SensFan than I actually do. To put it in context, I've called SensFan scummy about as much as I've called Korlash scummy, but you have no issue with what I've said about Korlash. That's not to say I don't think SensFan is scummy though, honestly I hadn't thought about him much because he hadn't posted, and your post did provoke some thought on the matter, so I look forward to his reply.

[Percy]

Found time.

Elan being the only cop would be unlikely.

Why?

if you're going to shorten my name, please use

hasd

Noted.

Not to mention,

I didn't jump on the wagon without saying anything.

Please look at the post I voted LC. I explained why. Are you just throwing things trying to make them stick?

See, your votepost said this:

Makes a lot more sense than that breadcrumb

...which implied to me that you thought that qwints' claim was a counterclaim, without reference to the fact that there might be more than one or that qwints may have been insane. Your explanation in 520 actually talks about how you arrived at your conclusions and what you were planning, which your votepost did not.

1) If Lamont_Cranston had flipped scum, who would you have thought his scum partners were? (Yes, this is a counterfactual question. I have my reasons for asking - I can explain after you answer the question.)

Santos, Head_Honcho, and Vino.
Santos for his "I get a town read but I might like to lynch him because he's distracting". But his willingness to claim to 'clear' L_C would still be an issue.
Head_Honcho for his lack of action against the wagon (specifically 285), as I outlined in 384.
Vino due to L_C's early defense of him.

Possibly also Fishythefish, due to 144.

2) Who do you currently think is scum, and why? Please be specific here.

In no specific order,

Mufasa

- active lurking, participating in the L_C wagon in the most scummy way.

Santos

- most of what I said from my first post is still valid. I've addressed other scummy things he's done (such as answering for Empking) as they have arrived.

Vino

- his attitude yesterday pinged my scumdar. He was very nonchalant about his scummy attitude, appeared to be distancing from SensFan, and his insistence on a scum presence in his early wagon (which speaks to nerves). Today, he's done "this sucks" and his attitude towards my wagon is suspicious (hence my FoS).

roflcopter

- I had a townish read of rofl yesterday, and whilst there may be a substantial OMGUS factor, I'm beginning to feel like rofl is waiting to make his 'case' against me because his objective is not to discover whether I'm town, but to make sure I get lynched. He's waiting to see what happens with my wagon before he commits.

SensFan

- Your analysis of SensFan is persuasive, and I had already detected interesting interaction between him and two of my other suspects (being Santos and Vino).

Head_Honcho

- his attitude towards L_C's wagon still bothers me, but my scum read has been decreased dramatically due to L_C's flip.

Scummiest are Sens, Santos and Vino.

[Tarhalindur]

Hmm.

Percy:

Follow-up question (multi-part): What was your opinion on the_silent_speaker at the end of Day 1 (before he was death revealed as scum)? Did you think he was scum? If so, what kind of scum, and who would you have suspceted his partners were had he flipped scum? If no, why not?

Vino:

Either you're misunderstanding me or I wasn't clear when I was making my case (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not strawmanning) - the thing I find scummiest about you is that you DIDN'T find SensFan all that scummy (scummy enough to vote, but not scummy enough to try to convince other players to lynch him), which is a CLASSIC scum distancing tell; moreover, some of SensFan's play (jumping onto the early bandwagon on you and ignoring your Sucks For Us! at the beginning of today while pursuing Santos for same) also reads like early distancing.

[Vino]

Hmm indeed.

What was your opinion on the_silent_speaker at the end of Day 1 (before he was death revealed as scum)?

He was what revealed as what? Looked like vanilla townie to me. I thought we don't have any flipped scum yet. Perhaps I read wrong?

the thing I find scummiest about you is that you DIDN'T find SensFan all that scummy (scummy enough to vote, but not scummy enough to try to convince other players to lynch him), which is a CLASSIC scum distancing tell;

I see. I must say then, that is exactly what happened, and if you want to take it as a scum tell then I can't stop you. I thought he was scummy enough to vote, but I was fairly unpopular at the time (arguably still so) and I felt that the Lamont issue was more important, so I didn't make any case. Anyways, it was an early game vote, I didn't have much to go on at the time, there's not much of a case that could have been made other than what I said, perhaps you're reading into this too much?

Also I'm certainly not responsible for SensFan's behavior, however it reflects on me.

[Riceballtail]

roflcopter

- I had a townish read of rofl yesterday, and whilst there may be a substantial OMGUS factor, I'm beginning to feel like rofl is waiting to make his 'case' against me because his objective is not to discover whether I'm town, but to make sure I get lynched. He's waiting to see what happens with my wagon before he commits.

What's funny about that is how it's exactly what he's accused me of.

[Percy]

Follow-up question (multi-part): What was your opinion on the_silent_speaker at the end of Day 1 (before he was death revealed as scum)? Did you think he was scum? If so, what kind of scum, and who would you have suspceted his partners were had he flipped scum? If no, why not?

(TSS flipped town...?)
(However, I will ignore the parenthetical remark and answer the question anyway.)

I had a bit of a strange read of TSS from early on. His Day 1 play was almost entirely devoted to pushing and defending his theory; SensFan was at the centre of a townie-lynching conspiracy, and only he could see it. It reeked of distancing to me, and I wanted to investigate his claims further. In particular, I wanted to see more of his interplay with SensFan and roflcopter, especially SensFan. If he had flipped scum, I would have had either of those in mind when it came to scumpartners.

I was also very interested in TSS's attitude towards "possible multiple scum factions". It worked very effectively for me in Suzumiya Haruhi (even though I was in Mafia Beta) as a scumtell, but I wanted to hear more from him before I brought it up. If the night results revealed some information about possible multiple scum groups, I would have been asking a lot of questions.

[hasdgfas]

Ok, looking back a bit....

Lynch Percy.
If he flips town, lynch me next, I'll self-vote.
If he flips scum - lynch Korlash.

If you are town, why on earth would you suggest that you self-vote?
If you are town, the only person you know is town is yourself(barring strange roles and such).
Therefore, you are going to want to not be lynched, and you especially don't want to push a lynch on someone you know is town(yourself).
So again I ask. If you are town, what is the town reason for this statement?

I see Percy asked you this, but you have just ignored it. Please answer now.


Looking back even further....

Threatening to replace out of the game because someone is making you cry? In my book that's called "pulling a farside22," except that it wouldn't be a town tell this time.

First off, no explanation as to why it isn't a town tell. Second off, he's missing the entirety of the issue here, that it's not a game-related issue. Seems like trying to throw anything at SensFan.
I'm going to look at Vino to see if this is consistent with what he's been doing all game.

ok, so Vino(putting this in quote tags, read the summary if you don't need to read the whole thing:

He starts by asking a really weird question about whether this is a day start game or not. To begin with, it said in the flavor post that it's Day, second, it just feels like you want it to be night, which I don't see a town reason for.
He continues by being extremely nonchalant about being voted or even finding scum(!). I missed this the first couple times I looked at this post. I'll quote it so you can all see it.

At this point, I'm not worried about bandwagons or actually being able to find any scum. It's all finger pointing and there's way too little information to assert any scum as having been found. I love how people make such a big deal about the smallest things early in the game.

Look at that closely. Not only is he seemingly unconcerned about being voted(a common tactic by scum so they can seem town), he says that he's not worried about finding scum now, which can also be read as "let's not bother looking for scum now" which is anti-town at the very least, and at most, extremely scummy. He then dismisses the attacks on him as unfounded because there isn't enough information.

He then attacks SensFan, who's not even on his wagon for being on his wagon. weird attack count: 1
More nonchalantness about being voted, then a bunch of theory, which doesn't help the game at all.

calling me out on a defense of sens. weird attack count: 2

Another interesting thing I've noticed right around here.
Vino says he can never glean anything from early pages, and yet then he comes out with a good old conspiracy theory about how fishy and one of the other people on his early wagon are scum.
I thought you couldn't get good information from the early pages, Vino? Change your mind that quickly?

blatant misrep of rofl. weird attack count: 3


we saw the "this sucks"

NK speculation.

the attack on sens that I mentioned before this isoread. weird attack count: 4

follows the town's leaning in thinking Percy is now acting strange.

Then "I can see Percy being town, but I can also see him being scum, so even though I don't really know what I think, I'm going to vote him"

"Hey, Tar agrees with me about Sens. Remember how I said that?"

so, summarizing Vino.
He has a lot of weird attacks on people, which feel like him trying to make anything stick that he can on certain people.
He stated that he doesn't think there's much to be gleaned from the early pages, but he has this weird conspiracy theory about the early wagon on him and how people are scum because of it. He even stated that he wasn't worried about finding scum in the early pages, yet he tries to find scum based on the early pages. Contradiction?
He was

way

too nonchalant about being bandwagoned, but he still tried to find scum from it. Why were you so unworried about your wagon early if you thought there was scum on it? What took so long?


Anyway, I think I'm going to do a D2 reread, looking closely at things like the Percy case/wagon to try to figure out what's going on, as I don't fully understand it.

[SerialClergyman]

If Percy turns out to be innocent - I fully expect to be lynched. I've pushed his case very hard and if he's innocent then I look really bad - I understand and accept that.

I offered the deal to show just how sure I am about Percy being scum. I am very confident Percy will flip scum and I'm prepared to put my money where my mouth is.

Your summary of the motivation as town doesn't include a townie who is close to sure he's found scum and is doing literally almost everything he can think of to try to get people to see it how he sees it. I've been frustrated by what I feel is an apathetic town.

Your summary (and also that of a few others, I think Sajin was one) fails to describe how my action makes sense as scum. If Percy is town, I die, which is a lot worse as scum than it is as town. If he's scum, I'm going ridiculously out of my way to bus him or there's multiple scumgroups and he's from another group and there's some ridiculous play being made where I hunt scum in a completely over the top manner. I think all of those plays are far less worthwhile than the one I'm making as town.

As much as you find the risk that we get 2 innocent lynches not optimal play,
a) I'm confident enough in my read to risk it (knowing I'd likely be the lynch anyway if he flips town) and
b) I think coming at it assuming I'm scum makes even less sense.

[hasdgfas]

If Percy turns out to be innocent - I fully expect to be lynched. I've pushed his case very hard and if he's innocent then I look really bad - I understand and accept that.

I offered the deal to show just how sure I am about Percy being scum. I am very confident Percy will flip scum and I'm prepared to put my money where my mouth is.

Your summary of the motivation as town doesn't include a townie who is close to sure he's found scum and is doing literally almost everything he can think of to try to get people to see it how he sees it. I've been frustrated by what I feel is an apathetic town.

Your summary (and also that of a few others, I think Sajin was one) fails to describe how my action makes sense as scum. If Percy is town, I die, which is a lot worse as scum than it is as town. If he's scum, I'm going ridiculously out of my way to bus him or there's multiple scumgroups and he's from another group and there's some ridiculous play being made where I hunt scum in a completely over the top manner. I think all of those plays are far less worthwhile than the one I'm making as town.

As much as you find the risk that we get 2 innocent lynches not optimal play,
a) I'm confident enough in my read to risk it (knowing I'd likely be the lynch anyway if he flips town) and
b) I think coming at it assuming I'm scum makes even less sense.

It makes sense as scum because you can WIFOM us into thinking it doesn't, leading us to not lynch you.
However, you're really, really quick to assume that we'd lynch you for pushing a lynch on someone who turned out to be town. Why do you think that you'd likely be the lynch if Percy flips town?

[SerialClergyman]

I would argue that you're the one introducing WIFOM if that's your argument, not me. Your argument is essentially 'ah, but your pro-town actions could be you as scum PRETENDING to be pro-town'

Because I've pushed extremely hard, admittedly to the point of tunneling against him. I think the more you push and push against one individual the more your actions are likely to come back to you if you're wrong. If that wasn't the case, forceful scum could pick a different person to tunnel each day until there was noone left.

[SerialClergyman]

EBWOP I'm also going to bed as it's 4:30am, so you'll have to wait for a reply ot any future posts till the morning

[Mufasa]

Sorry about my absence but its most evident that gorrad failed to mention that I was v/la from last sunday till yesterday, I sent him that in the night pm when I told him my intents on still playing, I also believed he screwed up something with a nk last night, but I can't talk too much about that without a confirmation from him in a pm.

I really believed that Qwints counter claimed was accurate so I never removed my vote off of L___C, my applogies L_C. But it also turns out that Qwints was accurate in his counter claim.

But I need Gorrad to read his inbox pronto thanks.

[Gorrad]

The following have not posted in the last 72 hours:

Kise- v/la until monday
Tzeentch- v/la until about monday
Delathi- v/la untl monday
Sironigous- v/la until about monday
Sajin- semi-v/la until next monday

Slicey- replacement requested

Head_Honcho- prodded
SensFan- prodded

[SensFan]

Whoops.

I somehow thought I was dead in this game, sorry.

I'll catch up tonight and post.

[Vino]

I have a lot to say about recent posts but this stuck out at me:

I also believed he screwed up something with a nk last night, but I can't talk too much about that without a confirmation from him in a pm.

You would never know or think this if you didn't send him an NK.

Unvote, Vote Mufasa

I demand an explanation.

I'll respond to the other posts later when I have time.

[Mufasa]

I have a lot to say about recent posts but this stuck out at me:

I also believed he screwed up something with a nk last night, but I can't talk too much about that without a confirmation from him in a pm.

You would never know or think this if you didn't send him an NK.

Unvote, Vote Mufasa

I demand an explanation.

I'll respond to the other posts later when I have time.

I believe that qwints should've been protected last night, but it seems that something blocked the protection.

[Tarhalindur]

Follow-up question (multi-part): What was your opinion on the_silent_speaker at the end of Day 1 (before he was death revealed as scum)? Did you think he was scum? If so, what kind of scum, and who would you have suspceted his partners were had he flipped scum? If no, why not?

(TSS flipped town...?)
(However, I will ignore the parenthetical remark and answer the question anyway.)

I had a bit of a strange read of TSS from early on. His Day 1 play was almost entirely devoted to pushing and defending his theory; SensFan was at the centre of a townie-lynching conspiracy, and only he could see it. It reeked of distancing to me, and I wanted to investigate his claims further. In particular, I wanted to see more of his interplay with SensFan and roflcopter, especially SensFan. If he had flipped scum, I would have had either of those in mind when it came to scumpartners.

I was also very interested in TSS's attitude towards "possible multiple scum factions". It worked very effectively for me in Suzumiya Haruhi (even though I was in Mafia Beta) as a scumtell, but I wanted to hear more from him before I brought it up. If the night results revealed some information about possible multiple scum groups, I would have been asking a lot of questions.

TSS flipping town: I blame being sleep-deprived, since that's what I was trying to say (the idea was to get what your read on TSS was while he could be scum).

Now, as for why I've been asking my questions:

Funny you should mention Haruhi, because that game's been in my thoughts about your play here lately.

See, when I read your posts here in isolation I got two distinct impressions:
- Your play very early D1 (before the Lamont wagon gathered steam) looked decidedly IIoA (the "WTFSpock" comment comes to mind"); your play today has also shown a relative lack of scumhunting, but that may be because you're too busy defending against SerialClergyman.
- Your pushing the Lamont wagon looked like genuine scumhunting.

In order to get a better read, I took a look at your past games. Conclusions:
- Your behavior towards meta in this game ("meta is usually bullshit") is NOT normal for you; unfortunately, the best example is an ongoing game (albeit one where you have been death revealed as town).
- After looking at the two games I could find where you were revealed as scum (Prisoner's Dilemma and an ongoing where you have been death revealed as scum), I don't think you're scum from a single faction. In particular, I nailed you as scum while reading your posts in Prisoner's Dilemma in about thirty seconds flat due to your posts being so strongly IIoA.

While it's possible that your case on Lamont is fabricated scumhunting, I don't think so - I don't see that kind of case coming from you unless you know there's another faction in the game.

That said, I believe that it's perfectly possible that you're scum that believes (by numbers, faction name, or just personal choice) that there is another scumgroup in the game. That would explain your scumhunting D1 AND the posts that read so strongly scum at the beginning of D1; hell, that's EXACTLY how you played in Suzumiya Haruhi (in fact, of all the games I looked at, Haruhi seems to be the closest to how you're playing here - I was NOT expecting that outcome when I started reading).

Hence why I asked you for who you thought was scum with Lamont and TSS; the supertell in multiscum is Selective Scumhunting, and I was testing to see if I saw any signs of it from you. (I note that your scum list today consists almost EXCLUSIVELY of players you claim to have thought scum with either Lamont or tss; I'm still thinking over whether that indicates Selective Scumhunting or just continuity of scummy reads).

My gut says you're probably not scum with SensFan, either, though I'm reconsidering after the list of suspicions you offered. On the other hand, if you are non-SK scum, Korlash is probably your partner (otherwise he still reads town to me).

You're not as scummy as SensFan and Vino (I don't think you're Mafia unless there is more than one Mafia, but they may be), but I'm keeping a close eye on you.

[Tarhalindur]

I have a lot to say about recent posts but this stuck out at me:

I also believed he screwed up something with a nk last night, but I can't talk too much about that without a confirmation from him in a pm.

You would never know or think this if you didn't send him an NK.

Unvote, Vote Mufasa

I demand an explanation.

I'll respond to the other posts later when I have time.

I believe that qwints should've been protected last night, but it seems that something blocked the protection.

... Or he was killed twice and your kill only blocked one of the kills.

That would almost CERTAINLY mean multiscum (OTOH, I can't think of ANY games with four repeatable kills that weren't games with multiple Mafia factions, with the exception of certain special games like Bad Idea and possibly Texas Justice).

I need to reread now.

[Tarhalindur]

EBWODP: First sentence should say "your protection only blocked one of the kills", since I'm pretty sure Mufasa just claimed protective role.

[Mufasa]

I have a lot to say about recent posts but this stuck out at me:

I also believed he screwed up something with a nk last night, but I can't talk too much about that without a confirmation from him in a pm.

You would never know or think this if you didn't send him an NK.

Unvote, Vote Mufasa

I demand an explanation.

I'll respond to the other posts later when I have time.

I believe that qwints should've been protected last night, but it seems that something blocked the protection.

... Or he was killed twice and your kill only blocked one of the kills.

That would almost CERTAINLY mean multiscum (OTOH, I can't think of ANY games with four repeatable kills that weren't games with multiple Mafia factions, with the exception of certain special games like Bad Idea and possibly Texas Justice).

I need to reread now.

oh I did not think of a double kill.. hmm could very well possibly be.