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Yosarian2 · Post Post #350 (ISO) » Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:15 am

Goatrevolt wrote: I have a strong reason to believe Ren Hoek is town. Everyone voting for him needs to explain what they think about the self-vote.

I think the fact that he put himself at lynch -1, and then the scum killed someone on his wagon, certanly does not make him look any better. Adel is probably right that the scum were hoping to get bus driven to a higher prirority target, but still.

curiouskarmadog · Post Post #351 (ISO) » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:19 am

I am back (sort of)...will be spending my Sunday getting caught up on internet stuff...so will post something then..have not read thread....

scotmany12 · Post Post #352 (ISO) » Fri Jul 17, 2009 11:41 am

V/LA again from tomorrow, the 18th, to Sunday the 26th. I will try to keep up and make a post every now and then, but don't expect a lot from me. I asked not to be replaced because after that I should be fine for a while. I understand if replacing is needed though.

Seraphim · Post Post #353 (ISO) » Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:47 pm

Whoa, I go V/LA and get killed. I was looking forward to this game too.

Ah well.

BAH GO TOWN

SensFan · Post Post #354 (ISO) » Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:33 am

The points raised against FL are very solid, and I still haven't forgotten FL's "Damnit, I wish we had nothing to start off of" comment.

Yosarian2 · Post Post #355 (ISO) » Sat Jul 18, 2009 6:01 am

SensFan wrote:The points raised against FL are very solid, and I still haven't forgotten FL's "Damnit, I wish we had nothing to start off of" comment.

That's actually rather unfair, you know.

Fl actually said:

FaerieLord wrote: Sucks that we didn't have a random voting stage as now the game is really stalled. So in an effort to solve this.

Vote: Seraphim

For reasons previously stated and to get the discussion going .

He was upset the game was stalled, which makes perfect sense, because it was, and because a stalled game with a fixed deadline is very bad for the town. He suggested that it might be stalled because we didn't random vote so now no one knew how to get started, which might be correct. So he then voted for someone in an attempt to get something going.

That really dosn't sound at all like what you're claiming he said, sensfan...

SensFan · Post Post #356 (ISO) » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:26 am

I don't think I'm as far off as you seem to think I am.

He was upset that we were in a position of a fixed deadline, except we were essentially entering D1 with 11 pages of discussion. But, ummmm...that's a hell of a lot

better

than it would be to start with a 'random' phase.

scotmany12 · Post Post #357 (ISO) » Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:59 am

So I will have internet access. Still LA though because I am on vacation with my family. Though I will keep myself caught up. I find the case of FL to be really farfetched.

Ren Hoek · Post Post #358 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:34 am

SensFan wrote:The points raised against FL are very solid...

What is so solid about the points raised against FL?

Yosarian2 · Post Post #359 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:35 am

SensFan wrote: He was upset that we were in a position of a fixed deadline, except we were essentially entering D1 with 11 pages of discussion. But, ummmm...that's a hell of a lot
better
than it would be to start with a 'random' phase.

Again, he was upset we never got a random phase BECAUSE that seemed to have led to a game stall. I can't see you think that's an anti-town attitude. He certanly wasn't unhappy about the 11 pages we did have, he even apparently used that in his vote.

Ren Hoek · Post Post #360 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:38 am

Why is is "VERY SOLID"?"

scotmany12 · Post Post #361 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:02 am

Ren Hoek wrote:
SensFan wrote:The points raised against FL are very solid...
What is so solid about the points raised against FL?

This. And to those who are saying that what FL said doesn't make sense from a town mindset, how exactly does it make sense from a scum mindset? It's a null tell. That's it.

Ren Hoek · Post Post #362 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:33 am

I could see myself voting for SensFan if he fails to produce a convincing explanation for why FL's tell is "VERY SOLID."

crywolf20084 · Post Post #363 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 4:48 am

Grrr. Sorry guys busy today. work on a post tomorrow.

SensFan · Post Post #364 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:07 am

Ren Hoek wrote:I could see myself voting for SensFan if he fails to produce a convincing explanation for why FL's tell is "VERY SOLID."

Its funny you say that, since I don't think I have any votes on me at all, and you called me a chicken earlier for not voting you when I had plenty of reasons and you were at L-2. So why, exactly, did you not just vote me? Especially since all the points raised against FL (by both Adel and myself) have been explained quite thoroughly.

Korts · Post Post #365 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:18 am

(4) Ren Hoek- Budja, Yosarian2, vollkan, SensFan

(2) FaerieLord- Adel, Goatrevolt
(1) crywolf- TDC

not voting:

Nuwen, curiouskarmadog, scotmany12, FaerieLord, crywolf, Ren Hoek

7 to lynch

Deadline for Day 1 is 6PM EST August 4.

Nuwen hasn't picked up her prod in 72 hours. Contacting replacements.

TDC has been prodded.

FaerieLord · Post Post #366 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:33 am

Ok, I'm back. Was expecting more posts to catch up on. So

@Sens.

except we were essentially entering D1 with 11 pages of discussion.

Not about who is scum or not, but about choosing our power roles, which was basically agreeing with adel.

Saying that those 11 pages could lead to completely solid votes is at the very best an overstatement. Based on the little amount of information there was + the game was stalled, I went on what little we had, which spurred discussion

Which was my intention.

SensFan · Post Post #367 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:36 am

FaerieLord wrote:Ok, I'm back. Was expecting more posts to catch up on. So

@Sens.

except we were essentially entering D1 with 11 pages of discussion.
Not about who is scum or not, but about choosing our power roles, which was basically agreeing with adel.

Saying that those 11 pages could lead to completely solid votes is at the very best an overstatement. Based on the little amount of information there was + the game was stalled, I went on what little we had, which spurred discussion

Which was my intention.

I still don't understand. How would the game possibly be better off with absolutely nothing than with 11 pages of game-related stuff?

scotmany12 · Post Post #368 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:45 am

Vote: SensFan

Not only are you taking what FL said out of context (he wished there was a random voting stage because the game was stalled), you have ignored Ren Hoek. Instead of explaining why the points agianst Fl are "solid" (they aren't, btw) you try to turn it against him.

Ren Hoek · Post Post #369 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:47 am

SensFan wrote:
Ren Hoek wrote:I could see myself voting for SensFan if he fails to produce a convincing explanation for why FL's tell is "VERY SOLID."
Its funny you say that, since I don't think I have any votes on me at all,

I should not vote for you because you don't have any votes yet? Is that your argument?

SensFan wrote:and you called me a chicken earlier for not voting you when I had plenty of reasons and you were at L-2.

"Plenty of reasons" is a relative term, especially on Day 1 when little has happened and there is no voting record. You did respond to my invitation to vote me quite eagerly.

SensFan wrote: So why, exactly, did you not just vote me?

I said I would vote for you if you FAILED to produce a satisfactory explanation for you finding the points brought up about FL "VERY SOLID."

SensFan wrote: Especially since all the points raised against FL (by both Adel and myself) have been explained quite thoroughly.

I want to know why you find them so compelling, because although they do qualify as "points," they are pretty low on the scale IMO. I'm not seeing too many players swayed by them.

I would qualify your play so far as opportunistic.

And since you have failed to explain that the points about FL were strong ones, worthy of qualifying them as "VERY SOLID," you have now earned my vote. With "opportunism" as a supplemental reason.

unvote, vote: SansFan

SensFan · Post Post #370 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:03 am

scotmany12 wrote:
Vote: SensFan

Not only are you taking what FL said out of context (he wished there was a random voting stage because the game was stalled), you have ignored Ren Hoek. Instead of explaining why the points agianst Fl are "solid" (they aren't, btw) you try to turn it against him.

Umm, except I'm not taking what FL said out of context at all. The fact remains that, if you think the game is stalled, I can't possibly understand why Town would think 'Wow, this game is stalled. I wish we were also starting from scratch, rather than being able to use whatever information was gained from the first phase of Day 1'.

And no, I didn't ignore Ren at all. I pointed out the extreme hypocrisy in his actions, considering he earlier implied I was scummy for not voting him when I didn't know how many votes were on him! Furthermore, the arguments against FL have been explained quite well by both myself and Adel - and don't forget the two of us can talk outside of this thread - and Ren didn't say he didn't understand the points raised. It was a no-win situation for me, since he clearly wasn't convinced that the points raised were any good, but instead of asking me to explain the points more clearly, he asked me to tell him why they were good.

Ren's response to my post, though, is even more illuminating. He first strawmans my statement about me not having any votes on me, taking the quote out of context to avoid showing that I'm about to explain why me having no votes on me is relevant. Then he goes on to dispute the fact I have plenty of reasons to be voting him, singling me out for the large wagon on him. He misrepresents me completely when he says I 'responded to his invitation to vote him quite eagerly', considering I had been quite clear in explaining that the only reason I wasn't voting him was because I was unsure of the vote count, and he let me know he wasn't at L-1. Ren wraps up his post by calling me opportunistic, despite the fact that (if memory serves), I was the first person to go after FL.

Yes, I'm very happy with my vote on Ren right now, though I think scot and FL are also likely Scum.

Ren Hoek · Post Post #371 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:21 am

SensFan wrote:...but instead of asking me to explain the points more clearly, he asked me to tell him why they were good.

What's the diff? You're the one that called them very solid. What's wrong with asking you to explain that?

SensFan wrote:Yes, I'm very happy with my vote on Ren right now, though I think scot and FL are also likely Scum.

Aw c'mon, even I think scot is town right now.

SensFan · Post Post #372 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:36 am

Ren Hoek wrote:
SensFan wrote:...but instead of asking me to explain the points more clearly, he asked me to tell him why they were good.
What's the diff? You're the one that called them very solid. What's wrong with asking you to explain that?

You never said you didn't understand the points raised, you said you didn't think they were solid. If you understand the points being raised against FL, and you don't think they're worth much, how can I possibly convince you otherwise?

Also, I notice that you failed to respond to all the other points I raised, about how you strawmanned and misrepresented me.

Ren Hoek · Post Post #373 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:09 am

SensFan wrote:If you understand the points being raised against FL, and you don't think they're worth much, how can I possibly convince you otherwise?

Maybe they seem weak because I don't understand them. Why don't you try? Unless you don't really think the case is "very solid" and you are merely being opportunistic scum.

SensFan wrote:Also, I notice that you failed to respond to all the other points I raised, about how you strawmanned and misrepresented me.

I'll let the rest of the players decide whether I "strawmanned and misrepresented" you.

SensFan · Post Post #374 (ISO) » Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:15 am

Ren Hoek wrote:
SensFan wrote:If you understand the points being raised against FL, and you don't think they're worth much, how can I possibly convince you otherwise?
Maybe they seem weak because I don't understand them. Why don't you try? Unless you don't really think the case is "very solid" and you are merely being opportunistic scum.

Are you seriously saying that your stance is 'I don't know if I understand the points'?

Either you understand them and think they're weak, in which case you can't expect me to tell you why I think they're strong.
Or you don't understand them, in which case you can't call me scummy for understanding them and being suspicious of FL because of it.

You need to pick one of the two and stick to it. So which one is it?