Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[Mastin]

Interesting choice. Has wouldn't be my choice with players I know; you can auto-clear me from picking the kill, as I would definitely try to lead as mafia and would have to be overridden by someone who I respect highly as a player and recognize the skill of to not nk another pro-town player.

Players:

Battle Mage
SensFan
alexhans
GIEFF
Cephrir
VP Baltar

Debonair Danny DiPietro

Kairyuu
camn

broomhead

SpyreX

Zachrulez
Benmage
Mastin

jammer

Bolded I've either played with, or know by reputation. (More than I thought...)

I will look up which players have played with hasdgfas, as they are most likely scum.

'Til then, I'll do what I always do in the RVS:

Mastin Votes: Mastin

.

No, no RVS jokes. They're so empty when it's known the setup's all-'Nilla. :/

[Mastin]

To note,

Battle Mage--a couple games here and there; 688, 763, and a few ongoing.

Sensfan--1 ongoing.

Alexhans--doesn't matter how many; he gained my respect in 735 and it only grew by the time of M. 91, HATPF.

GIEFF--Mentioned the account on EM, which I have played a great deal with on there. None on MS.net, but still a good deal on EM.

Cephrir --The name on EM is familiar. I also have seen Cephrir briefly on MS.net.

VP Baltar -- A few games here and there. Great scum player; got nominated for a scummy because of it.

Kairyuu -- 145 got my respect; it never left.

camn -- Saw in Medieval Mafia (browsed first eighty; watched everything after that), Saving Nasubi.

SpyreX -- Forget where, but there are a lot.

jammer -- EM.

The rest, I might've played with, but the above are the only ones who left great impressions on me as good enough players to override whoever I'd decide to night-kill. Anyway, off to the hasdgfas analysis. Wiki, anyone?

[Mastin]

Battle Mage.

Battle Mage again.

BM again.

I'm seeing a pattern, here. You?

Seriously, BM, how many games with him have you played?!?

Can't find any more, but I'm fairly sure Camn saw him in Medieval as well, so Camn and BM, from what I can tell.

Mastin Unvotes: Mastin,
Mastin Votes: Battle Mage

.

Who else would perform the kill?

---

vote: alexhans

Obvcult. Speedlynch GOGOGOGOGOGOGOGOGO!

No, no, just recruiting masons.

[Mastin]

Vote: Kairyuu

He was mean to me in the sign-up thread.

Eh, fair enough, but I wouldn't recommend a random vote for very long. I'm killing the RVS without using my favorite tactics.

[Mastin]

I've played with Hascow before and he was not a very active scum player... at least in that game. Maybe it was because the town had 80 % of lynchable material (Empking, Zwets, Dejkha, Wall-e and Hewitt). Anyway... If I had to kill... knowing there were no protections whatsoever... I would've killed... sensfan? Mastin? someone random that I don't know? Probably I wouldn't have had a voice in a scumteam....

You're too good to be scum.

But, yea, you'd kill me; I'm almost certain of it.

Bolded I've either played with, or know by reputation.

You've never played with/known Battle Mage? Wow.

I'm tempted to vote VP Baltar because he is always scum...

Mm-hm.

I'm tempted to vote Mastin for self voting...

I always do that.

I'm tempted to vote Kai to OMGUS...

Do it!

*Alexhans recruits Kai...

Yea, I'm your n0 recruit.

New postPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2009 1:02 am (Yaw posted the first post of the game)
I'm researching who to vote...

I wasn't at the computer at the time day started, nor the time thread opened. In theory, I would've had plenty of time to contact scum partners, though.

well... Vote broomhead because he is probably hiding among unknown players.

I prefer voting experienced players--inexperienced players can just get replaced by experienced players.

Mastin posted again while I was writing this... and DDD too...

And how would you know?

[Mastin]

By the way, I just killed the RVS. In your next post, either get out of it, or die.

[Mastin]

Note my sig

Lynch scum not mafia?
Your record?
Proud member of BaM?

Oh, right. V/LA...

Actually,I dig and agree with Mastin's review.

Hey, hasdgfas! Update your wiki to make it easier!
Thanks, Spy.

With this having no power roles the basic idea is going to be a lobotomization from the scum.

Meaning only those who have played with hasdgfas could've suggested the kill, hence, narrows down our suspects. It most likely would be an experienced player, like BM.

Hence, BM is scum.
And, no, we're not waiting 'til Day Three to make sure.

So, who would think of hasgafads as a key lobotomy point?

Anyone who played with him before and liked his play.

However, the tinfoil says that Mastin as scum could go the brazen I wouldn't do this as scum because it would be awesome.

True, for wifom purposes, I might, but truth is, I probably would've killed Alex or an EM player. Maybe Kai instead.

[Mastin]

Cause I wrote that post and was researching the profiles of the players... and found DDD had been active AFTER Yaw's 1st post... so I went back to the thread and found your posts...

...You were looking at all of our latest posts? <_<

Im glad... but people should still vote eventually... For a reason... but vote. We can not afford lurkers (active or not) or inactivity...

Aye. I agree. Which is why we need to scum hunt. Look for who would kill the cow.

[Mastin]

I don't think Hascow was killed for lobotomy. . . no offense intended, but there are some pretty heavy hitters on the playerlist.
Unless they are ALL scum, I think hascow was picked for a different reason.

VP? what is your opinion of Hascow as a player?

He had to be picked off by someone who knows him, unless the scum were submitting a completely random kill (extremely doubtful).

Hmm. My first Large Normal, and my first Night Start all in one. Mmk. I do believe that I'll follow Mastin and alexhans' lead.

Wow, I didn't know I was that popular.

Mastin: Does not know hascow, so would not be too keen on killing him.

Technically, I don't know him, but I've seen him around. (Read: browsing first eighty pages of Medieval Mafia, GD threads, etc.) Don't think that'd count, though.

Myself: I know hascow from one ongoing game, but would put Sens, BM, and Mastin much higher on the "to kill" list than I would put him.

Aye. As would I. Plus EM players, Alex, and instead of me, you.

(One of these days, I so totally want to ask a mod if I can nk myself as scum to create confusion and for the hilarity, but, well, I'm not scum this game and that'd do no good. )

DDD was scum, and hascow was town and an IC. hascow was not NKed until the Night after DDD was lynched (D3 and N3 specifically) so it is highly unlikely that DDD would find hascow to be a good target now when he didn't back then and hasn't played with him since.

Valid point.

camn: His last post suggests that he would view other players as higher priority kills than hascow.

Her. Her last post, unless Camn's profile is lying about gender.

And, well, Camn's actually at spot #2 on my scumspect post; something seems off already and Camn definitely has played with has.

That leaves Sens and BM.

I did a metagaming read on Sensfan and am familiar to some extent with his Newbie Game meta, but outside of Newbie games, I am not, and so, need to do research on that as well.

I do, however, think BM would submit said kill. He's good at wifom and all of that stuff.
Then again, he has a history of killing good players. I've seen him twice as scum. 688, it was the pro-town player, no-kill, kill of person attacking the player (Need a term for that. OMGUS+Chainsaw NK? ), and then a no-kill again.
763, it was me (pro-town player, nailed the other scum), and then, he was lynched.

It all depends on the links I gave where BM played with has, I guess; did he think that has was a good player then?

I'll have to do some more research on both of them (tomorrow, as it's reeeally late right now) before I choose, but the likelyhood is high that at least one of those two is the scum who picked out hascow for the N1 kill.

Aye. I agree mostly, but I'd place camn on that list as well and disagree with that read of yours.

For what it matters, I know Mastin, GIEFF and Spyrex from EM.

Replace Mastin with Jammer, you've got mine. We've got a little EM cult going around these days.

Spyrex to long ago to remember his playing style. :/

Yea, I remember Spy from EM, but know him better for MS.net.

Mastin you plan using meta to see who killed the cow,

Yup. Good plan, no?

while you already made clear scum can easily wifom the meta.

And where'd I say that, Jammer?

With that, there only has to be one that played with hascow, to know him and kill him.

Still doesn't eliminate the fact that one of the people who knows him had to have killed him.

You think(and others?) talking about meta, is a better way to find scum, then simple scumhunting?

Better than the RVS. We essentially skipped it with the metagaming scumhunting. Relying on scum hunting is what we'll eventually do. But for now, Meta rules.
And anyone who gets rid of metagaming as an argument with our current kill is going to instantly be labeled more likely to be scum from me.

Ignores the supposed killing of RVS of Mastin.

I *hate* the RVS, Jammer. I do my best every game to kill it as quickly as possible. Ask...*looks at player list*

Battle Mage,
alexhans,
VP Baltar,
or
Kairyuu.

And I dislike those who try to extend it when it is clear we've already begun to leave it already.

Vote: SensFan
For replacing out in comfirmation stage in my other game.

Something in this post screams "bussing" to me.

Scumspects:

Battle Mage,
Camn,
SensFan,
Jammer.

I think I might've gotten the quickest scum-read yet! Yay for scum hunting; I found four scum!

[Mastin]

Hey, Kai, wanna mind-meld?

[Mastin]

Here.

That was referring to me. Not other players.
So, unless that was a direct accusation I was scum, then you're incorrect.

I am not trying to get completely rid of meta. I see meta as how you know other people play, and you compare that towards current play. Trying to gues who would kill who with maybe just 1 out of 4 deciding, including a possible wifom to get players on the wrong track. Seems very less usefull to me, if it even is.

Thing is, I doubt Wifom is involved in N0 kills. To me, N0 kill are a chance to get rid of a player with a good reputation. Like Kai, or Alex, for example.

Besides that, why is the kill of hascow so special?

Because, why would hascow be killed? There has to be a reason. And that reason means that the person who killed hascow probably knew him.

More common scum kills would be people like Sensfan, Kai, myself, maybe Alex, etc.

Not hascow.

Only becouse some didn't play with her and wouldn't kill becouse of that?

Him. Him.
And, yes. They wouldn't kill hascow because of that.
Think EM, Jammer. When was the last time you saw someone kill someone else they've never seen playing?
Probably rather some time ago.
When was the last time you saw someone kill someone else based off of that someone's play in a previous game?
I'd call you a liar if you answered anything other than the last time you played.

Are you really going to ignore some players becouse they would not shoot someone where they never played with?

Stop twisting my words.
Ignore, never.
Find less suspicious?
Probably.

Kairyuu, what pro-town reason is there for listing the players you think that scum should kill?

Why only singling out Kai? I did it as well.
And, to answer, it kinda clears me, if you believe what I say. (You should. I don't lie, even as scum, 'cept when I roleclaim as scum.)

[Mastin]

This is a fair assumption, but not to be stated as fact.

Reasonings are welcomed with open arms.

[Mastin]

Mastin, why do you think it is a fair assumption?

'Cause Alex's math was solid.

Do you find it odd that jammer was so quick to adopt alexhans' hypothesis?

Yes. That's why I said that it shouldn't be stated as fact.

[Mastin]

And Mastin, do you mean that jammer shouldn't assume 4 scum because it may be wrong, or that he shouldn't assume 4 scum because it is scummy?

Aren't they kinda one and the same?

You are the only one that can use wifom...

Me? Use wifom? Ha.

The guy who never lies regardless of alignment 'cept about his alignment, pulling wifom. That'd be the day...

But you would do it yourself?

Yes. Not killing pro-town players N0 is stupid.

I redirect you towards my recent games on EM. I have proven your theory multiple times wrong there. I believe this makes me look bad, right?

Thing is, every time I've played on EM, I've seen people kill players they know.
Not players who they've never seen before.

It was a question, stop twisting that I am twisting your words. I wanted to have a feeling how far you are 'clearing' someone for a kill.

Asking a question which uses wording that wasn't me I'd still consider twisting words.
Does making it a question automatically mean there's no word-twisting, Jammer?

@GIEFF, I think 4 scum 16 players is fitting with no PR's. I looked at the little reasoning of alexhans what didn't look like a wild gues. I took it as truth becouse I though it was. I believe 4 scum sounds reasenable.
With this, this may sound stupid. But I though Alex reasoning was based on standard MS logic, balance of a basic setup like this. MS doesn't have a standard way to balance setups like this?

The topic where you could in, stated that it was the last mountainous game. Means it was played before. Where are the links from earlier games, btw. Do those also have 16 players, does the scum/town ratio change there?

Speculation can be made about an increased number of scum, like five or six in rare cases, but it's doubtful.

[Mastin]

I will answer your question once you answer mine.

You kinda already do. By asking "Aren't they kinda one and the same?", I'm essentially saying, "both".

Yes, you wanted to hunt for scum with help of meta. And my question was meant, to know how much weight you put on it.

And it sounded like twisting my words to me.

If I ask, "Are you female?", it doesn't mean I say you said you where female. So I don't twist your words.

If you say, "I'd do XX as scum."
And I answer, "So you're admitting your scum?"

Is there no twisting of words?
After all, it's just a question, right?
Yea, no.

[Mastin]

Yay!
Three and a half pages!
Keep it up!

...Unfortunately, I will be V/LA for most of the weekend and so, will not be able to participate in the fun a great deal during that time. Bad timing sucks.

Oh, well. You can look forward to many catchup posts after that; enjoy.

[Mastin]

I have been V/LA. Got back Sunday, and have been trying to catch up in my other games.
My priority list:

-Games nearing their end. (Two total.) They're closing up; I need to devote my all to them.
-Games just beginning. (Again, two.) They need my special touch to get going.
-Games where I am pages behind. These are the most fun (...errm, most of the time), because I love long posts, and I save them for last. This game (with eight pages needed to be read) qualifies.

After I write a ramble about this for another game,
And take care of the game (already got one) nearing its end,
And take care of the game (again, got one) just beginning,
And assuming I'm not distracted by a player in one of the above coming online (20 posts in one topic, ignoring all others, anyone? ),
And assuming my internet doesn't fail (Happens around 2-3 am every day. It's 2 am right now. <_<),
And assuming no real-life maintenance gets the better of me,

I'll start catching up.

Yea, yea, lots of inconveniences, I know, I know. But, hey, when you're V/LA for three days, you're going to have a heck of a time getting back into sync with normal life.

Sorry for the huge bother it is; it's just another one of the many reasons why so many people see me as an anti-town player.

[Mastin]

As promised, here.

Right, so I'm way, way, waaaaaaaay back on page two. This'll be fun.

I now understand the quotes in Mastin's sig. >.<.

Heh, heh. I have a way of doing that to people, now, don't I?

I came into this expecting 3 or 4 scum, and at this point could still see either. IMO we should just assume there are 4 because it's a possibility, even if it's less likely especially given the existence of the vanilla 2 vs. 10 setup.

Aye. I agree.

I suppose NKs are more telling in a world without doc protections and players more likely to be investigated, but obviously the scum are aware of this and I don't see that anyone in particular would definitely be gunning for hascow.

Someone who knows hascow. It has to be.
That narrows down the suspects by quite some bit. Doesn't help us catch scum 100%, but, yea, it does help at least some.

To me he does seem like one of the more intimidating names on the player list, but I count a couple I would choose over him.

Intimidating?

I fail to see how. Seems like the opposite. Name-wise, seems like a joke, which is pretty much the opposite of intimidating.

Reputation-wise?
Again, requires for a player to know him.

Anyway, I'm not really liking the speculation on the NK that's coming from Mastin.

Perhaps because it worked?

It's pro-town to do. You get an idea of who killed who from it. If a player like Kai was killed, no big deal. We all know that Kai's insanely pro-town; I would barely even think about narrowing down suspects by who knows him and who doesn't.

...But hascow?
No.

No such luck; someone who knows him (and likely very well) must have made the kill.

Him and Camm are sticking out to me as potential scum right now.

Very interesting, considering how I was fingering Camn as a suspect.

Also, *many* others speculated about the NK. Camn was one of the least talkative on that matter.

Why just us two, Zach?

Anyone who actually continues this "Sens must be scum since he should have been killed over Cow" logic, don't expect me to even read your posts.

Actually, it's
"Sens must be scum since he

killed

the Cow" for me.

I would place him as mediocre based on that, but I'd have to meta to form a more solid opinion.

This I agree with.
So it'd have to be someone who knew the Cow well. BM fits this profile well.

What would really be looked for even more is who knew Hascow where Hascow did a *really* good job of playing. If he played well in a game, like, really, *really* well, then a player who is scum and saw him in that game might want him dead as quickly as possible.

So,
either
-Look for players who know hascow *really* well,
or
-Look for players who have seen hascow do *really* good as a pro-town player.

they might have killed someone who was even less known, such as jammer.

Jammer seems well enough known to me.

The kill would be most likely to come from someone who knows hascow. Furthermore, I believe that a senior player on the scum team would have more sway and would help direct the kill toward someone like hascow, as opposed to someone a newer person might be more inclined to kill based on overall site rep alone.

Which further incriminates players like Battle Mage/Sensfan who fit this profile perfectly.

Seriously, guys.
SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE KILL.

Its something the Scum have 100% control over, and I'm betting most/all of the Scum are now trying to use that to also control the Day phase.

If it was almost any other player, Sensfan, I'd agree.

...But Hascow?!?

Again, it's something which I don't see as wifom. Night zero kills are meant to pick off players who are known to be insanely pro-town.

...Not players who are thought of as fairly mediocre.

Buddying.

---

End page two.

[Mastin]

Mastin, are you still happy with your vote for BM?

At the moment?

Yea.

But I'm twelve pages behind. Just caught up in another game, and this one's tab was the closest to that one (They're right next to each other, even. That one's to the right of this one).

Might change in that time, will see eventually.

Does anybody have a link to a similarly-sized all-vanilla game, or can somebody more experienced with vanilla setups (or Yaw's preferences/knowledge of vanilla setups) shed some light?

Closest I've got is Lynch All Lurkers, 18 players double day with four scum.

Looking for scum-slips and tells.

One should use every tool available to scum hunt. Not just slips/tells. Amongst others is the NK and the speculation about that.

I'm confident that it'll help catch scum.

And wifom based on that, not on what died, and wifom based on that.

Can you name anything in any game that isn't proven fact that can't be considered wifom, jammer?

It might be wifom.
Doesn't mean we shouldn't look into it.

Lynching based on who died, are you considering that?

Due to metagaming being a powerful tool ('cept on me. Nobody has my meta nailed down, because it fluctuates too much.), yea, I would. The scummiest person who (at the very least, half-)fits the profile I have for directing the kill to Hascow will be who I vote.

If they don't fit the profile, they might've followed as scum, sure.
But I think that it'd be better to find who would lead a Hascow night-kill.

Based on what died. Who seems a good candidate doing that according to you? And who not.

BM and Sensfan both know Hascow, and both would very easily direct the scum kills.

Vote: GIEFF

Seems kinda OMGUS, despite Gieff's unvote.

I'm in the Sens/Zach camp that NK speculation offers no substantial benefit and several potential harms.

And to me, it offers several potential benefits, and almost no substantial harms.

Mastin, are you still happy with your vote for BM? (I know I already asked this, but wanted to make sure it didn't slip through the cracks)

Patience is a virtue. You only need to say it once; once I get around to respond to it, I'll notice it the first time.

Yes, for the moment, I am.

These posts establish an attempt by Mastin to both clear himself based on the nightkill and gather scum suspects based on the nightkill.

And I never lie about matters such as that, even as scum.
I'm an honorable player.
The proof is in my recent anti-town games.

I'd *never* Night-kill a person like Hascow with *far* better targets around.

The

*only* possible

way is if I was overrided by a player that I hold huge respect for. I gave, in my list before, who those people are.

And even then, it's doubtful that I'd allow them to.

Also, gathering suspects based off of the unusual night-kill--->Hugely pro-town. At that stage in the game, it is *definitely* the best possible way to find scum. Later on, scum tells become important, sure.

But this is something which
-Is all I had
-And will remain a good tool throughout the game.

Like Sensfan pointed out not too far back in the game, what's up with all this nightkill speculation?

Finding scum.
That's what.

Control of the game based on the nightkill seems to be Mastin's motive,

As scum, I don't control the game based off of the night-kill.

I control the game by bussing my partners heavily, making me look better, or them look better, buddying/ignoring pro-town players, confusing players intentionally instead of unintentionally, appeal to players I know to get them on my side, etc.

Nope, not doing that this game.

and I'm happy to put a vote on him. (I'm clear! But these people are scummy because they know Has!)

It's true.
100%.

What's wrong with using this very simple but effective tool for scum hunting?

Nothing.

But it is Mastin who appears to be leading the charge, and i'm not sure that's his style.

My style changes over time. But, yea, I do speculate on the night-kills in Night Zero games, ESPECIALLY if they're *very* interesting.
Hascow qualifies.

Vote: Ben

Clearly a wannabe mage.

...A random vote?
At this point in the game?
Seriously?!?

Vote Mastin

Nice reasonings, Gieff.[/sarcasm]

That is genuinely scummy (Albeit from a gutshot OMGUS perspective).

I fail to see how.

Speculating on night-kills-->Pro-town. 'Specially in an all-'nilla setup. Helps get a grip on the game, see who's scum.

I'm not sure why you make the assumption that people who have played with Hasdgfas are more likely to kill him than people that haven't.

Because if someone kills a fairly mediocre player, there HAS to be a *very* good reason--like knowing them well, knowing their strengths, etc., and fearing them.

You must rate his play pretty highly if you think that anyone that knew him would have killed him instantly.

EXACTLY. If someone rates his play high enough to instantly kill him, then the chances SKYROCKET for that person to be scum.

I think if i'd chosen the kill, i'd have probably picked you.

You've barely seen me play, BM. Like, what, one game? (763)

Hascow has been with you at least three times in the past.

Simply because, as scum, i cba to trawl through a massive thread, when i dont need to find scum.

You picked me off in 763 because I was obv. town. (I also had your buddy nailed.)

Not because I was annoying.

Ofc, this is all a pointless convo, because there are multiple scum, and it's probable that the decision wasn't unanimous.

But someone (read: experienced player) had to have lead the choice on Hascow.

why do you need to emphasise that you always do it?

Eh, just did. You don't always need a reason for saying something.

Unvote, Vote: Mastin

Def. OMGUS.

I would never lynch based on something like that and I don't think anyone else will either, so why not talk about it?

I definitely wouldn't lynch on it alone, but it *will* be a major part of my cases all game. Which is why it should be talked about.

Smells....town. But i dont get the fixation with namedropping players you know. It ain't cool, and it ain't productive. Whoever did the italicising and underlining thing at least actually achieved something.

Kai took what I (and then, Alex) had done and did it better.

Not necessarily. It could be a revenge kill. It could be someone that HASCOW is particularly good at reading....

It could be a lot of things.

Like I said, it's probably due to the player having seen Hascow in many games, and/or seen him do *really* good in one.
But, no matter what, it has one thing in common:

The player has to KNOW Hascow.

---

End page three.
This is fun, but I gotta eat lunch.

[Mastin]

If you've done your research, you'll have a good indication that the latter point doesn't apply to me. I'm a lil disappointed.

I saw you in many games with hascow. That's enough to convince me you know him well enough to NK him.

Vote Count:

Mastin (3): Zachrulez, GIEFF, Battle Mage

I find this interesting. BM definitely seems to be OMGUS'ing me at this point, and I don't understand why Gieff voted me; no reasoning was given at all.

"could" isnt a particularly useful word in this instance. If you want to make a case based solely on Kill WIFOM, i'm saying you should at least research all the contingencies properly.

Do YOU think anyone fits yours?

Could isn't the best word when it comes to if they know hascow or not.
Probably to almost certainly works better.

As for the motive, that could be anything, so could is the correct choice of word for that.

I see no problem with it.

Why not let Mastin defend himself?

'Cause we're scumbuddies, of course.

No problem with defending a player who is busy elsewhere. (Like me, defending my integrity.)

Mastin loves random voting.

Myself, and then the first to vote me in the RVS, yea.
We didn't have the RVS. Well, not *much* of one, anyway. Not enough for that to apply.

My vote's serious.

So aren’t all roads point towards Battle Mage?

Am I not him?

@Post 45, Zach…no need to quote the whole thing, but awesome and well done.

Buddying up to Zach.

*Stare*

Vote Mastin

Nice bandwagon. Brilliant reasoning, too. [/sarcasm]

---

Have to eat, now; am in the middle of page four.
(Like the new posting style? )

[Mastin]

As I've said elsewhere, I'm having access problems with MS.net at my home computer. In the games where I am pages behind, this will be a hindrance; I don't have time in 30 minutes to catch up. It should be fixed by tomorrow; I'll see what I can do then.