Open 143: Jungle Republic (Game Over!) before 787

[Sotty7]

You've one again repeated a point I addressed - - it was about behavior, interaction, and acknowledgement in addition to FoS's and votes - - - Who Dej named as suspicious or worthy of interrogation wasn't directed to or carried out through official fos's or votes.

Dej has voted Emp, was characteristic toward him - - Dej voted Hewitt top of D2

Show me what you mean. Seriously. This is getting ridiculous!

His vote on Hewitt was throw away at best, have you even bothered to re-read any of that day? You are remembering it though rose colored glasses.

We should talk about how people have reacted to the claim, which AA has been doing a pretty good job of.

Scum Read:

Ace - For trying to mislead the town into thinking Dust has used an apparent scum meta in multiple games whenever he was scum. This was proven as a lie when Ace said that this only happened once when he was later called on it. Reference to posts 152 to 154

Zwet - Obviously for trying to get a counterclaim. I'm thinking a

very likely werewolf.

Emp - Only loosely though, because of post 106 where he asks for a claim and tells people not to CC if he claims Seer. Like someone else said, he could've been communicating with a partner. That partner obviously being Dust.

I'd also say possible werewolf.

AshMC1984 - He's made 4 short game relevant posts out of the 172 that have been made. What's there to say? Lurking scum? He unvoted after Dusts claim (his vote remained there from the RVS and he apparently never got around to changing it) and votes Zwet for voting without good reasons and trying to get a CC. He, however, doesn't mention Ace, who had the same reason for voting Dust as Zwet.

Town/ No Read:

AA23 - AA has been seemed pretty town to me in the sense that he hasn't done anything scummy that I remember, and has been generally telling us all with good reasons, who could be scum on the wagon as well as providing different possibilities.

Percy - Hasn't done much of anything scummy, but at the same time, nothing much pro-town either.

Possible Scum Pairs

Zwet/ Ace Werewolfs (Most likely) - Supported in posts 152 and 154.

Ace/ Ash Mafia (Possible)- Ash ignores Ace's reason for voting Dust, but doesn't ignore Zwet, who used the same reasoning.

Emp/ Dust Werewolves - Emp asked Dust to claim and mentions how a Seer shouldn't CC should that be the claim. If this were the pairing, it could be for two reasons. He hints at Dust to claim Seer and it would also keep his partner alive while making it look like he's keeping the towns best interest in mind.

Hopefully, when people have time, we'll have more opinions.

Dej never put energy into Mix a single time in this, or after.

Dej tried to throw the wolf trail on townies it would seem, and not once acknowledge Mix (YOU) - his wolf partner.

Hi.

He also doesn't mention Hewitt.

He also doesn't mention Kham

He also doesn't mention Thesp's player slot.

Show me where he put any effort into any of these players either please.

Why am I so special compared to any of these players?

You have no point here. Why can you not see that?

He more than once admitted the "Scummy Mix Hammer" "Lies" "Lurking"

Given Dej's play in this game, and what he was willing to condemn other people for

Why do you suppose he never investigate Mix/you for those things?
Why no Fos?
Why no vote?
Why passionately be against the wagon (as he admitted)?

Because you're his partner.

The scum are only hurting themselves the longer they hold off on the inevitable and ignore obvious evidence.

It would be nice to get out of this lull, but there are too many fears on their side.

You crack me up AA. He just hated your case, this is all an ego thing with you it's stupid. There is no obvious evideance. Dej also never voted Thesp or Kham. The same two people he never mentioned in that whole one post of his you quoted to show a special relationship. Either try harder or conceed the point.

Stop saying there is a lull.

to clarify my opening statement - -

I've told you already - it's not soley about who he voted and fos'd - it's about behavior etc...

Told me yeah, not showed me. Just because you say something doesn't make it true. you have been a proven exaggerator already in this game. Boarding close on flat out lying.

he ignored Mix and defended him/you by being passionately against killing you right to his death - -

Please show me this “passionate” defense. Here's a hint, there wasn't any. He defended Hewitt against you just as much.

Which would make sense if he were your partner.

Only if mafia was played by people with no actual foresight. The game would be terribly easy if this was the case wouldn't it?

And if you weren't partners?

Well - Dej showed just how noble and compassionate he was before he left us. I'm sure he wanted to be fair, and nice to you lmao lmao

What the hell is this supposed to mean? You trying to excuse your misrepp'ing and stretching of the truth because of dej's behavior? Not going to fly.

Sotty7 if I were dejkha's wolf partner would it honestly make much sense to request a modkill on him? I mean really if I'm a wolf I'm going to play as viciously as I can to win but I've never bussed a scumbuddy and leaving me all by myself would be suicide because I haven't been a consistently strong enough player in this game for town to keep around for very long. I would have no shot at winning. It's WIFOM yes, but true.

And I do think it would be a scummy move to build a case on me at this point like you are because I'm such an easy target right now. This isn't appeal to emotion I'm not saying woe is me I'm admitting that I sucked early on in the game so I would be a pretty opportune scum driven lynch.

Just because you say something isn't an appeal to an emotion doesn't make it true, FYI. Scum /wolf or town I understand the frustration though Hewitt. Trust me on that one.

As to your first paragraph I have to admit that I have been thinking that way since I made my last post. I'm starting to think it makes you more likely to be scum with just wanting another player out of the way rather than Dej's partner.

Hewitt, what do you think about AA ignoring all the rest of the players and just tunneling on me? I have proven that dej had this special relationship he keeps ranting about with at least two other players. Do you think his actions still make me and just me alone look bad?

Vote Count

Sotty7 3 - AA23, hewitt, Empking
Empking 2 - Khamisa, Thesp

Sotty7 is -1
Empking is -2

[Empking]

Not a fan of lulls.

Who is?

[AA23]

@Sotty - You're once again picking and choosing what to pay attention to. I'm saying dind't day that post of Dej's alone was the basis of my point, I addressed that who he acknowleged and how, and that for the REST of his gameplay to FOLLOW, he was not only ignoring Mix's scumminess, he was defending him.

In addition to that - in the REST of his gameplay to FOLLOW - he indeed addressed Hewitt as well. My point still stands.

And you now say it was a "throw away" vote? - please, if you can't form a solid defense, or an understandable offense in another direction, or avoid wifom - - don't try to tell me the state of Dej's mind (unless you can prove it was "clearly a throw away vote").
------------
@Emp - True say. But at this time? I'd say mafiascum. They need to buy time, this is a very sensitive point in the game.

[hewitt]

I can't say I approve of AA23's tunneling but it's been pretty consistent with his playstyle all throughout this game and it's consistent with how I've played with him before.

[Thesp]

Just a quick post on the road from my wife's Treo - I should be able to post significantly tomorrow night. (See the Flayming Man thread in General Discussion for where I've been.) Thanks for your patience with me, I certainly haven't forgotten about you.

[Khamisa]

AA23 - Why do the mafia need time? IMO, they should be snapping up any lynch that isn't one of their own.

[Thesp]

Specific requests that I'd like responses to are color-coded. Requests in

indigo are for AA23

,

red are for Empking

, and

green are for hewitt

.

Now, on to business.

---

I'm suggesting I'd like to see it laid out with more support than theoretical variables.

Can you explain what in the Empking case was "theoretical variables"?

(I ask because I think you are using dismissive words that have no relevance to the actual thing at hand.)

You know Thesp, for someone that heavily considered the Mix wagon, hopped on it now and then, discussed it, voted for it top of the day regardless of the replacements response - - you're quick to dismiss it.

I'm not dismissive of the Sotty7/Mixologist wagon - far from it, I think there's a lot of validity to it, and he's certainly second likeliest after Empking, and I think there's compelling reason to think specifically Empking is dejkha's partner. I am a little surprised that this would be a black-and-white issue to

anyone

in the game.

What do you think of Empking entering today asserting that your interactions with dejkha appeared to be "bussing"?

(So help me, if you say "That's just Empking being Empking", I will beat you about the face with a wet noodle, then cry and cry and cry that you are refusing to try to get useful interactions from Empking.)

(I have something to say on Empking's push today on AA23, but I want respnoses from AA23 and Empking first.)

Ah yes - because you've realized at this time how much a mislynch will benefit you.

I'm confused, are you trying to suggest that Sotty7/Mixologist is my partner

and

dejkha's partner?

@Thesp - please do respond to my query. Why so much investment in the Mix case only to abandon it when he is connected to Dej (suspected). Did persuing the wagon seem like a cold trail when an easy mislynch on Emp came up?

Sort of a loaded way to ask the question, don't you think?

I took a step back, looked at dejkha's interactions with everyone, and noted that his interactions with Empking were particularly unusual and likeliest to come from a partnership relationship. I then examined Empking, and found a similar partnership indication reciprocated. That gives me pause. I'm with you that Sotty7/Mixologist is super likely scum - I'm not convinced as you seemingly are that he's dejkha's partner.

---

Dej only gets me lynched if you or AA are dupporting him. That's not the case here.. So its not out of chatracter. Its in character.

And this even strikes me as out of character for Empking. I don't think I've ever had him give me a "rational" response without just calling me scum or saying I'm lying. I'm not sure what you're implying though, that dejkha needed me or AA23 on his side to start a bandwagon against you? I doubt that, considering I was not an influential enough player early on this game to be needed. He probably could have easily used me as a pawn.

However, AA23 I actually trust that you're right on this one so...

Unvote, Vote: Sotty7

I'm confused, are you suggesting that you think Empking is acting scummy, then unvoting him?

---

AA23, what do you think it says of Sotty7 that he had the opportunity to hammer Empking today, and chose not to?

(IIRC)

---

Dej only gets me lynched if you or AA are dupporting him. That's not the case here.. So its not out of chatracter. Its in character.

And this even strikes me as out of character for Empking. I don't think I've ever had him give me a "rational" response without just calling me scum or saying I'm lying.

Well at least that's in character.

Unvote

AA is acting very town today.

What's different about today than previous days? I'd like you to be specific, feel free to quote as necessary.

---

1. Isn't it odd that he would acknowledge Mix's hammer as scummy, dirty? That he would admit Mix lied? That he would note Mix lurking, and not

persue

it? He admittedly stated he wanted nothing to do with the wagon

I agree that it's a bit odd. I'm not as convinced that it's odder than his treatment of Empking. (see below)

3. Dej also persued Hewitt. He did so top of the day. I don't think Emp or Hewitt are his partners.

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

It seems to me that dejkha was blowing a lot of smoke without actually pushing for an Empking lynch - it looks more like he

wanted to look like he'd lynch Empking

more than he actually wanted to lynch Empking. Sotty7 rightly noted this:

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

...

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

dejkha repeatedly goes out of his way to say both that (a) he would lynch Empking, and (b) Empking is not likelier to be scum than any other player. It seems to me that he's looking as though he's hostile to Empking, while trying to push others away from the wagon by assering that Empking isn't any likelier to be scum. That makes

crazy good sense as partner play

.

When it comes down to actually trying to lynch Empking, Percy has to goad dejkha into voting him. Furthermore, dejkha jumps off the Empking vote the moment Percy does.

His excuse is that it's because an empking lynch didn't otherwise have a chance, but that doesn't seem to have stopped him from making votes before.

(For the record, I

hate

the edited-in vote count, though I didn't realize it until now. It is impossible to quickly search through vote counts.)

***This is why I feel the Mix(Sotty) case is still alive and worth persuing. I think that only mafiascum are interested in a mislynch for the day (proven in my early scenario post)*****

I missed where this was in any way "proven". However much I may or may not disagree, I strongly, strongly oppose arguing the ideal scum strategy at this point in public, and unless I can be convinced it would be wised, I'm refraining to do so.

Dej was a wolf that proved he indeed wanted easy lynches - - then he flat out said he was saving Emp for later (hello??)

I'm not sure why this indicates dejkha was actually intending an Empking lynch, rather than continuing to stall making any actual push towards an Empking lynch.

---

I don't think I believe that anymore so I switched my vote over to you.

Any particular reason?

---

I would have found it odd that someone would suspect the person they replaced to begin with (followed by zero defense, WIFOM, and pleas to emotion)

Why is that odd?

I'm not sure what else they would do in such a situation, whether scum or not.

---

So wait. Sotty7 what are you reasonings for suspecting me as one of the top two wolf probabilities?

Basically I don't think you have done nearly enough to hunt scum, you have been almost as absent as emp. Plus you agreed with my Percy case when I first replaced in then seemed to throw dirt on it later in the day because you “forgot”. Quiet inconstant. I will also say, the modkill request sits off with me, hard to put into words.

I entirely disagree with this, at least in part because I can see the desire for it - I wanted to ask for a dejkha modkill, but didn't think it was in my place to do so (and I think such requests are better served via PM to the mod), but I think that's a game theory point more than anything. I don't think this is indicative of him being scum. (I think there are other reasons to think this.)

---

AA this logic doesn't work. You think everyone off my wagon is scum, but why would scum want to save a wolf? That makes no sense. Scum want the wolf dead just as much as anyone. You are trying to pressure people to jump onto the wagon with you by throwing weak suspicion over them all.

It's scummy.

Why would they want to save a wolf?

That has been explained in detail, Sotty, and everyone, including you, agreed with post 803

This is post 803.
I see how it argues that the wolves likely didn't care about any theories you had, or discrediting you, or anything to that effect, and they were likely most interested in nightkilling the person they'd be least likely to be able to lynch. I don't see

anything

as to why the mafia would care about who would be lynched.

Am I looking at the wrong post?

(Looks like Sotty7 beats me to this.) (Then AA23 doesn't address it.)

---

Thesp: You do I find most suspicious? You do I find town?

Huh? (Can you re-phrase? I'm obviously not getting something here.)

I don't know if this was ever clarified -

what in the world did you mean by this post?

Also,

Empking, can you explain how the dejkha/AA23 interaction appeared to be bussing to you?

[hewitt]

Yes I do believe that Empking was acting scummy when I said that and I'm not quite sure where you got that second quoted question from? Not sure how to answer that.

And I will admit there was another motive for me requesting a modkill on dejkha. Being 100% honest here. I was really really sure that he was a wolf. So I jumped on the fact that he said something that I found incredibly offensive and used that to my advantage to get him out of this game as quickly as possible so that the town wouldn't be misdirected into what I thought was going to be a mislynch. Just to clarify the exact reasonings behind my request for a modkill. The alternative motive was much more secondary to the bigger motive though and that was to get somebody who I felt made an inexcusable and X-rated offensive insult out of the game because it's against the rules and unpleasant to play with.

[Sotty7]

@Sotty - You're once again picking and choosing what to pay attention to. I'm saying dind't day that post of Dej's alone was the basis of my point, I addressed that who he acknowleged and how, and that for the REST of his gameplay to FOLLOW, he was not only ignoring Mix's scumminess, he was defending him.

In addition to that - in the REST of his gameplay to FOLLOW - he indeed addressed Hewitt as well. My point still stands.

And you now say it was a "throw away" vote? - please, if you can't form a solid defense, or an understandable offense in another direction, or avoid wifom - - don't try to tell me the state of Dej's mind (unless you can prove it was "clearly a throw away vote").

This.

Is.

Ridiculous.

He didn't ignore Mix's scumminess, he admitted it. He also addressed Mix as much as he addressed Hewitt. The facts are there for everyone to see you are just content to spread the shit you believe. I have proven you wrong countless times now and you haven't even tried to adjust your theroy. It's lazy and I am becoming unable to see a townie motive behind such obvious chronic tunneling.

Hewitt. How does this statement:

I can't say I approve of AA23's tunneling but it's been pretty consistent with his playstyle all throughout this game and it's consistent with how I've played with him before.

Work with this...?

Dej only gets me lynched if you or AA are dupporting him. That's not the case here.. So its not out of chatracter. Its in character.

And this even strikes me as out of character for Empking. I don't think I've ever had him give me a "rational" response without just calling me scum or saying I'm lying. I'm not sure what you're implying though, that dejkha needed me or AA23 on his side to start a bandwagon against you? I doubt that, considering I was not an influential enough player early on this game to be needed. He probably could have easily used me as a pawn.

However, AA23 I actually trust that you're right on this one so...

Unvote, Vote: Sotty7

AA23 - Why do the mafia need time? IMO, they should be snapping up any lynch that isn't one of their own.

Exactly.

So wait. Sotty7 what are you reasonings for suspecting me as one of the top two wolf probabilities?

Basically I don't think you have done nearly enough to hunt scum, you have been almost as absent as emp. Plus you agreed with my Percy case when I first replaced in then seemed to throw dirt on it later in the day because you “forgot”. Quiet inconstant. I will also say, the modkill request sits off with me, hard to put into words.

I entirely disagree with this, at least in part because I can see the desire for it - I wanted to ask for a dejkha modkill, but didn't think it was in my place to do so (and I think such requests are better served via PM to the mod), but I think that's a game theory point more than anything. I don't think this is indicative of him being scum. (I think there are other reasons to think this.)

The only time I have wanted a mod kill is when I was scum and I felt a townie broke a rule. That said I haven't been in games were the personal attacks reached the level that Dej took them. I still think it shows Hewitt didn't really care about alignment flips at a point of the game that was very important to the town.

Yes I do believe that Empking was acting scummy when I said that and I'm not quite sure where you got that second quoted question from? Not sure how to answer that.

And I will admit there was another motive for me requesting a modkill on dejkha. Being 100% honest here. I was really really sure that he was a wolf. So I jumped on the fact that he said something that I found incredibly offensive and used that to my advantage to get him out of this game as quickly as possible so that the town wouldn't be misdirected into what I thought was going to be a mislynch. Just to clarify the exact reasonings behind my request for a modkill. The alternative motive was much more secondary to the bigger motive though and that was to get somebody who I felt made an inexcusable and X-rated offensive insult out of the game because it's against the rules and unpleasant to play with.

Yesterday you thought I would be a myslynch, what has changed?

If you really thought he was a wolf why didn't you push him harder after what he said? Do you not think it would have exposed a potential partner? My issue is that the mod kill robbed us of this extra information.

[Empking]

Thesp: Ha, I can't beleive I wrote "You" instead of "Who".

AA is scumhunting as if he beleives in what he's pushing.

AA and Dej were just passing long posts against each other rather than concincing anybody.

[Khamisa]

I would like to declare here that I firmly believe that hewitt cannot be wolf with dejkha, due to him asking for the modkill. However, he still may be mafia.

[AA23]

Kham - in an early post, I make it clear why understandably, Mafia were prioritizing a mislynch over a werewolf lynch today - - it makes the odds play in their favor VERY much. Now that it's been called out, they are stuck off the Mix wagon and need time to find their way on it without seeming like caught/obvious scum who are called out.

Thesp - - my final statement on Emp is that he is not partners with Dej. I feel their relationship was characteristic.
I also feel any case on him is theoretical and airy because I've yet to see any EVIDENCE brought up against him (the evidence I asked you for....) - - - It's a bunch of "I think" statements based on little to nothing - - whereas the Mix/Sotty case is based on the scumhammer and interaction with Dej. The scum hammer alone is hard evidence enough to outweigh Emp.

- And no, Thesp. I think that

Dej, Mix(Sotty) = Wolf

and you and Kham = Mafia

That's what it looks like to me right now. Not sure on Kham, but I'm almost positive on you (and considering the killing of the wolf today will eliminate NK's, and we'll only NEED one Mafia lynch to win, I don't NEED to be sure about your partner) - - once the Sotty(wolf) is put down, my vote goes to you.

[Thesp]

Kham - in an early post, I make it clear why understandably, Mafia were prioritizing a mislynch over a werewolf lynch today - - it makes the odds play in their favor VERY much.

Can you repost it rather than stating you've already said it? (That will help me understand where you're coming from more.) I think that line of thought is incredibly wrong. (I know that would not be my priority as mafia in this scenario.)

Thesp - - my final statement on Emp is that he is not partners with Dej. I feel their relationship was characteristic.
I also feel any case on him is theoretical and airy because I've yet to see any EVIDENCE brought up against him (the evidence I asked you for....) - - - It's a bunch of "I think" statements based on little to nothing - - whereas the Mix/Sotty case is based on the scumhammer and interaction with Dej.

I'm sorry, you keep saying this, but you haven't addressed what people have said:

3. Dej also persued Hewitt. He did so top of the day. I don't think Emp or Hewitt are his partners.

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

It seems to me that dejkha was blowing a lot of smoke without actually pushing for an Empking lynch - it looks more like he

wanted to look like he'd lynch Empking

more than he actually wanted to lynch Empking. Sotty7 rightly noted this:

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

...

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

dejkha repeatedly goes out of his way to say both that (a) he would lynch Empking, and (b) Empking is not likelier to be scum than any other player. It seems to me that he's looking as though he's hostile to Empking, while trying to push others away from the wagon by assering that Empking isn't any likelier to be scum. That makes

crazy good sense as partner play

.

When it comes down to actually trying to lynch Empking, Percy has to goad dejkha into voting him. Furthermore, dejkha jumps off the Empking vote the moment Percy does.

His excuse is that it's because an empking lynch didn't otherwise have a chance, but that doesn't seem to have stopped him from making votes before.

Can you address this? I think this is the heart of the Empking line of thought. You keep insisting that no evidence has been brought - are you suggesting that the quoted text here is factually incorrect, have you overlooked it, or is it something else? I'm terribly confused.

Can you also show me where dejkha pursued Empking with any real sense of pursuit? I missed your response to this.

[hewitt]

Sotty7- I'm not quite sure what you're trying to point out to me. I separately posted that AA23's playstyle matches my meta on him and Empking's does not. And it could have potentially not given the town information that was important. But my main reasoning was not I was sure of a wolf flip but that I was offended by his actions and I wasn't going to play until he was out. So I wouldn't have been pushing harder against him, I was going to not post until he was gone.

[AA23]

Thesp - you're asking me to point out where Dejkha persued Emp with "any real sense of persuit" - -

I'm not qualified to say the sate of his mind, and I'm suspicious that you would stoop to a loaded question - - I felt they were characteristic because of his BEHAVIOR toward him - Not for persuit.

And it is YOU who have failed to address needed issues - like posting that evidence clearly on Emp. Still haven't forgotten about that.

Do you need more time?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

And for the cheap seats since clicking back is difficult - - Post 807 with the edit included

I think that Emp is being characteristically Emp and Mix(Sotty) is werewolf.

Wolves and Mafia win when either one represets at least half of the whole town.

Day 4

We currently have 6 people

(3 town, two mafia, one wolf)

If Mafia

mislynches

Emp, we will be in twighlight with

2 Town, 2 Mafia, one wolf

Night 5

Wolf choosing

not to NK

will result in the mafiascum starting the next day with
===============================================
Outcome 1 (no NK)
2 Town, 2 Mafia, 1 wolf
"Oh, it wasn't Emp? Woops. Must be Mix(Sotty) after all!!!! Let's get him!"

- Mafiascum wins. The will make up at least half the town
===========================================
Outcome 2 (NK hits a mafiascum)
2 Town, 1 Mafia, 1 Wolf
Mafia STILL say "Must be Mix/Sotty after all!" and the wolf is gone.

= Day 6, 2 Town, 1 Mafia, lylo

============================================
Outcome 3 (NK hits a town)
1 Town, 1 Mafia, 1 Werewolf
Mafia STILL would say "Must be Mix/Sotty after all!" and lynch him

Mafiascum win.
============================================
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------




.......................................................................................................
I've posted the above so you can all see what the odds are of town surviving a mislynch on Emp.

If we mislynch Emp instead of going for Mix/Sotty, we will have to trust that the Wolf will

definately hit scum

with his NK - - otherwise we are going to be in lylo.

So to summarize - - Mislynching Emp results in three possibilities based on the Wolf's actions:

A no NK = Scum win

A town NK = Scum win

A scum NK = Lylo
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I'm right about Mix/Sotty, we will have NO MORE NK's - and we will be outnumbering the scum.

I believe the best course of action is to lynch Mix/Sotty. The case is stronger.

Emp is being characteristic, and his guilt is being defined by what a known wolf did NOT do to him?

That known wolf ignored a scummy player - Mix - - that counts for something more so than him not playing hard enough against Emp.

I feel very strongly about this. Mafiascum are the only people who will benefit from the lynching of Emp over Mix/Sotty.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mix is higher priority than Emp.
Mix had done more scummy things than Emp.
Mix/Sotty also had a noteworthy relationship with Dej.

Confirm Vote: Sotty7

Mafia have better odds of winning with a mislynch.

I feel Mix(Sotty) is the best candidate and also as the strongest case against them.

Nothing crazy and out there about it - - it's an opinion based on events in the game, and a mathematical look at our circumstance.

I won't be moved on this - The town loses if we give in to ignoring what a mislynch will do while voting anyone other than Mix(Sotty)

[AA23]

Did anyone get around to answering those questions by the by?

In addition to you all posting your Emp case if it exists yet - - can you tell me:

Given how passionate Dej was about calling people "Liar" and using "Lurking" as a reason on his heavier wagons,

1. Why would Dej, more than once, acknowledge that Mix(Sotty) was

lurking, lying, and scummy for the hammer

yet do nothing about it?

Isn't that a little bit odd?
That he would be (as he SAID SO HIMSELF) - AGAINST the wagon?

Why defend, and hate on a wagon so much, yet acknowledge all of those things?

That didn't gain a vote, that didn't gain an FoS - it didn't lead to anything in BEHAVIOR (more importantly)*

Was Dej being nice, and trying to be fair? (was that characteristic of him?)

The real case is between Mix(Sotty) and Dej being wolf - - anything else at this point is a weak attempt to divert the town from a strong case/wagon.

Unless someone can PLEASE for crying out loud - post the EMP CASE.


*And Sotty - - saying "I proved you wrong" doesn't magically make it true - we all read this thread and follow.

And so far? Is the fact the NOBODY is posting a solid Emp case/Sotty defense proving me RIGHT (and thus you wrong?)

Because I see a whole lot of bashing for a straight forward case - and I'm thinking you have a whole lot of noting in your hand.
--------------------------------------------------

This game isn't about being right or wrong amongst other players - it's what instigates ego and fuels aggression -
I genuinely want to read the Emp case, and nobody wants to post it.

They just want to do this dance again : the one where they bash me and my case and hope the confusion helps everyone go "fuck it!" and do something stupid.

POST - YOUR - CASE - ALREADY

And I stress for the last time - It better be DAMN stronger than a wold being against a wagon of someone who Lied, Lurked, and has a Scum hammer on them (especially when that wolf passionately hated those things)

So please. Lets give it a read

[AA23]

wolf* EBWOP last sentence

[Thesp]

Thesp - you're asking me to point out where Dejkha persued Emp with "any real sense of persuit" - -

I'm not qualified to say the sate of his mind, and I'm suspicious that you would stoop to a loaded question - - I felt they were characteristic because of his BEHAVIOR toward him - Not for persuit.

I'm not asking you to divine dejkha's state of mind. I'm looking at you to make your best guess at dejkha's state of mind based on his actions towards Empking throughout the game. (That's how we play mafia, right?) I'm asking you to pretty please find an instance where dejkha made actions that were actually likely to lead to the lynch of Empking. You have stated on multiple occasions that you don't think Empking is scum with dejkha because of the hostility dejkha exhibited towards Empking. I am asserting that dejkha's hostility was staged and insubstantial, and there was no actual threat to Empking from dejkha. I am furthermore asking you to back up your assertion that dejkha exhibited actual hostility (from a game standpoint, not from being-a-jerk standpoint) towards Empking. It is this precise dichotomy, that dejkha pretends to be hostile to Empking without

actually

being hostile, that is characteristic among scumpartners and a significant (but not sole) indicator of Empking's partnership with dejkha.

And it is YOU who have failed to address needed issues - like posting that evidence clearly on Emp. Still haven't forgotten about that.

Thesp - - my final statement on Emp is that he is not partners with Dej. I feel their relationship was characteristic.
I also feel any case on him is theoretical and airy because I've yet to see any EVIDENCE brought up against him (the evidence I asked you for....) - - - It's a bunch of "I think" statements based on little to nothing - - whereas the Mix/Sotty case is based on the scumhammer and interaction with Dej.

I'm sorry, you keep saying this, but you haven't addressed what people have said:

3. Dej also persued Hewitt. He did so top of the day. I don't think Emp or Hewitt are his partners.

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

It seems to me that dejkha was blowing a lot of smoke without actually pushing for an Empking lynch - it looks more like he

wanted to look like he'd lynch Empking

more than he actually wanted to lynch Empking. Sotty7 rightly noted this:

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

...

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

dejkha repeatedly goes out of his way to say both that (a) he would lynch Empking, and (b) Empking is not likelier to be scum than any other player. It seems to me that he's looking as though he's hostile to Empking, while trying to push others away from the wagon by assering that Empking isn't any likelier to be scum. That makes

crazy good sense as partner play

.

When it comes down to actually trying to lynch Empking, Percy has to goad dejkha into voting him. Furthermore, dejkha jumps off the Empking vote the moment Percy does.

His excuse is that it's because an empking lynch didn't otherwise have a chance, but that doesn't seem to have stopped him from making votes before.

Can you address this? I think this is the heart of the Empking line of thought. You keep insisting that no evidence has been brought - are you suggesting that the quoted text here is factually incorrect, have you overlooked it, or is it something else? I'm terribly confused.

---

And for the cheap seats since clicking back is difficult - - Post 807 with the edit included

When you are condescending, I get the impression that you don't actually want to convince anyone, you just want to be superior. (Also note that you said repeatedly that it was in post

803

that the argument was, and it has been pointed out to you multiple times that post 803 had nothing to do with this argument. I wish you had clarified this some time ago.)

Mafia have better odds of winning with a mislynch.

I still disagree with this, pretty strongly. If I was mafia and lynched a townie today, I'd have no control over the nightkill, which is more likely headed towards someone who appears mafiaish (like hewitt). In fact, with successive townie lynches, it's quite likely that mafia would

lose

, as the wolf is hunting them exclusively now.

It's also absurd to think that, should we lynch incorrectly today and the wolf not nightkill (???) as you've suggested, that everyone would blindly rush onto whomever we thought was a wolf - that makes no sense whatsoever.

I'm also disturbed by the assumption that you believe Empking is town. In fact, your entire argument is based on this fact. How reasonable an assumption do you think this is?

Also, you still haven't answered:

What do you think of Empking coming out today and suggesting that your interaction with dejkha was bussing?

What do you think of the fact that Sotty7 did not hammer Empking when he had the chance?

[Sotty7]

Sotty7- I'm not quite sure what you're trying to point out to me. I separately posted that AA23's playstyle matches my meta on him and Empking's does not. And it could have potentially not given the town information that was important. But my main reasoning was not I was sure of a wolf flip but that I was offended by his actions and I wasn't going to play until he was out. So I wouldn't have been pushing harder against him, I was going to not post until he was gone.

I guess my point is that if you agree AA is tunneling doesn't that make you at least question his conclusion on me? You voted for me with the line “I trust you are right” towards AA. While tunneling doesn't always mean the person is wrong, it does suggest they are ignoring, deliberately or otherwise, important aspects of the game.

How can you trust someone who has drawn a conclusion on only the facts they twist to fit the case?

Vote: Emp

Like I have said before, Hewitt and emp were my top two wolf suspects. After thinking over the issue with Hewitt, I can see that the mod kill thing may just be a personal difference of opinion. If it points to anything, it points more towards Hewitt being scum rather than wolf.

Emp on the other hand, was weakly bussed by Dej after Percy called him out on it. The vote was then quickly abandoned by Dej in his very next post with no reasoning what-so-ever. Dej seemed to be trying to save emp for later which is a play that makes little sense to me unless emp is dej's buddy. Wouldn't dej push emp hard to get that mislynch he could pin on his meta?

Also, I have to laugh at AA continually not answering questions. At least he isn't just blowing me off, he is an equal opportunity ignorer.

[Thesp]

Given how passionate Dej was about calling people "Liar" and using "Lurking" as a reason on his heavier wagons,

1. Why would Dej, more than once, acknowledge that Mix(Sotty) was

lurking, lying, and scummy for the hammer

yet do nothing about it?

Isn't that a little bit odd?
That he would be (as he SAID SO HIMSELF) - AGAINST the wagon?

Why defend, and hate on a wagon so much, yet acknowledge all of those things?

That didn't gain a vote, that didn't gain an FoS - it didn't lead to anything in BEHAVIOR (more importantly)*

I agree that it's a bit odd. I also believe that it possible for someone to think someone has done something that is scummy, yet still think they are town for other reasons. (I think in this instance he thought Sotty7 was town (which I disagree with), and didn't want to be on yet another townie wagon.)

---

Unless someone can PLEASE for crying out loud - post the EMP CASE.

...

I genuinely want to read the Emp case, and nobody wants to post it.

...

POST - YOUR - CASE - ALREADY

At this point, I am really torn as to whether or not you are paying attention, or you are simply ignoring (consciously or unconsciously) things you don't agree with or want to read. I'm serious.

I'm sorry, you keep saying this, but you haven't addressed what people have said:

3. Dej also persued Hewitt. He did so top of the day. I don't think Emp or Hewitt are his partners.

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

It seems to me that dejkha was blowing a lot of smoke without actually pushing for an Empking lynch - it looks more like he

wanted to look like he'd lynch Empking

more than he actually wanted to lynch Empking. Sotty7 rightly noted this:

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

...

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

dejkha repeatedly goes out of his way to say both that (a) he would lynch Empking, and (b) Empking is not likelier to be scum than any other player. It seems to me that he's looking as though he's hostile to Empking, while trying to push others away from the wagon by assering that Empking isn't any likelier to be scum. That makes

crazy good sense as partner play

.

When it comes down to actually trying to lynch Empking, Percy has to goad dejkha into voting him. Furthermore, dejkha jumps off the Empking vote the moment Percy does.

His excuse is that it's because an empking lynch didn't otherwise have a chance, but that doesn't seem to have stopped him from making votes before.

Can you address this? I think this is the heart of the Empking line of thought. You keep insisting that no evidence has been brought - are you suggesting that the quoted text here is factually incorrect, have you overlooked it, or is it something else? I'm terribly confused.

[Thesp]

Also, I have to laugh at AA continually not answering questions. At least he isn't just blowing me off, he is an equal opportunity ignorer.

I know, I need to learn to just let it go. It's just so hard to do that near the endgame.

[Sotty7]

I hear ya. It is driving me slightly insane.

[Empking]

Thesp; Why am I scummy?

[AA23]

Yeah Thesp - is it hard to answer?

Maybe we should try that cute little picture of the "banging a head on the wall"

--------
Awwwww - I'm sorry if you feel neglected when I don't answer LOADED QUESTIONS.

If I think something - Or have an opinion on a matter, I'll post it - I don't need you trying to babysit a loaded question when you ask me things like "how did you feel when Emp said you were bussing" - - Sorry, mate - it didn't raise any red flags for me, and there were more priorities.
----------

And there is no agreeing or disagreeing with post 807 - - you either see that hard fact or you do not.

A mislynch guaruntees Mafia either a definite win, or Lylo for town.

And you may read certain sentences and get the impression that I'm being condescending, but I'm reading paragraphs from you guys and get the impression that you're ignorant - - we can play the name game all day and it will get us nowhere - - -

Every opinion and action I've taken has been backed up and explained, repeated and defended - - I've yet to see you offer the Emp case.

maybe things can get less emotional and narrow minded if you guys would offer up INFORMATION and intellect.

WHERE - IS - THE - EMP - CASE

And no, Thesp - I will also not SPECULATE on his state of mind - nice job leading, though.

- - You agree it was odd that Dej acknowledged multiple times that Mix(Sotty) was lurking, lying, and scummy and did nothing - -

ELABORATE - WHY was it odd, Thesp?

And no - he didn't just want to take his time and be neutral - he was practically campaigning against that wagon and only admitted being against it when he cracked

He was protecting Mix/avoiding him/his case long enough before any townies were killed - this wasn't a recent issue, this was ongoing.

You're trying to manufacture a case out of Emp, when there is a perfectly sound and justified one on Mix(Sotty)
----------------------

And tunnelling? - Excuse me, but until I see the damn Emp case, this is the ONLY thing to look at! WHAT is stronger? WHAT is more substantial than ANYTHING I'll throw right back in your face for presenting?

THIS is the case.

Now stop bickering - and post the case! seriously! Is it DIFFICULT? The longer you go without doing it, the more you prove me right, hoss! Of course I feel more confident - -

Your lack of a better case shows you have NO leg to stand on to call mine unworthy of today's lynch.

Shut me up with your case (fingers crossed it's stronger, guys!!!!)

[Thesp]

AA23, I'm still a bit uncertain why you keep saying "THERE IS NO CASE ON EMPKING THAT ANYONE HAS PRESENTED RAWROMGNOMNOMNOM" when I have posted the following a number of times, and you refuse to acknowledge it. I will no longer respond to you with anything but the attached until you give it some serious thought. I really should spend my time and energy addressing everyone else, as you make it increasingly clear you have no desire to consider other options, but I'm troubled by the fact that I think everyone else (save Khamisa, who apparently agrees with me) is scum.

I'm sorry, you keep saying this, but you haven't addressed what people have said:

3. Dej also persued Hewitt. He did so top of the day. I don't think Emp or Hewitt are his partners.

Can you point out to me where Dejkha pursued Empking with any sense of real pursuit?

It seems to me that dejkha was blowing a lot of smoke without actually pushing for an Empking lynch - it looks more like he

wanted to look like he'd lynch Empking

more than he actually wanted to lynch Empking. Sotty7 rightly noted this:

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

...

I'm happy with a lynch of Empking, and I'm finding dejkha's avoidance of the 'vote for Empking!' argument I've forwarded concerning. I'm the only one talking about Empking at the moment, now that I think about it, and that really bothers me.

dejkha repeatedly goes out of his way to say both that (a) he would lynch Empking, and (b) Empking is not likelier to be scum than any other player. It seems to me that he's looking as though he's hostile to Empking, while trying to push others away from the wagon by assering that Empking isn't any likelier to be scum. That makes

crazy good sense as partner play

.

When it comes down to actually trying to lynch Empking, Percy has to goad dejkha into voting him. Furthermore, dejkha jumps off the Empking vote the moment Percy does.

His excuse is that it's because an empking lynch didn't otherwise have a chance, but that doesn't seem to have stopped him from making votes before.

Can you address this? I think this is the heart of the Empking line of thought. You keep insisting that no evidence has been brought - are you suggesting that the quoted text here is factually incorrect, have you overlooked it, or is it something else? I'm terribly confused.

---

Empking, I will answer your question a bit later when I have some time. (I must admit I'm not in a terrible hurry to convince you, but I will indeed answer you.)


(One thing I do feel the need to respond to of AA23's:)

A

mis

lynch guaruntees Mafia either a definite win, or Lylo for town.

Fixed this for you.