The Manor: Chzo Mafia (Game Over!)

[Pyromaniac]

Hopefully he will be scum with stepho and they will miss their night kill.

[Devestation]

See the post before you Pyro, if he was important he wouldve been replaced

[Pyromaniac]

Oh. Good point.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I do not change rules according to whether or not someone is a PR. Any speculation in that area is entirely pointless.

[Setael]

Sironigious is my 2nd choice for scum. His buddies can hold down the fort while he's V/LA i'm sure.

If Stepho comes out scum I will probably look into Pyro/Xtoxm as possible scumbuddies

Where are you getting this conclusion? Xtoxm and Pyro have pushed Stepho's lynch harder than anyone. If anything, they're maybe scum if he's really our cop but if he's scum they are NOT likely scum buddies imo.

It is possible that Stepho misspoke when he said he was Innocent. It appears he was inferring this from the “fellow Innocents” phrase. I think it is possible that the “good” faction (i.e. power roles) have “fellow innocents” though they are not themselves an Innocent.

Which is why Amished and Naomi have both stated they don't have it?

*And yet Amished thinks Stepho's claim might be legit. How do you reconcile this? I think it is fail to auto assume this type of thing is definitive.

I think there is a chance Stepho is telling the truth about his claim, and anything that seems to be contradicting what the mod said has come from Stepho misspeaking or misunderstanding game mechanics that really weren't clear to any of us until the mod clarified in thread.

Examples?

*anything meaning EVERYTHING. i.e. saying he was Innocent

(There is also a LOT of sense in stepho's statement that it has been narrowed down quite a bit today and his pool is very small for finding scum tonight.)

Elaborate, please.

*Several people have outed themselves as vanillagers (assuming scum does not have access to the vanilla pm). This narrows down which players can be power roles or scum. This makes it easier for a cop to find scum.

If steph is scum, we are lynch naomi tomorrow. Budding and different factions counter any "only one is scum" argument. Or SK.

This makes no sense. Why would Stepho set himself up like that? If we lynched Naomi and Naomi came up scum, Stepho's result on him gets stepho lynched. Naomi is cleared as town whether stepho is scum or town.

Bottom line, I don't KNOW that stepho didn't fake claim. I do however think there is a chance he really is our cop and everything people are seeing as contradictions was said based on misunderstandings. I also think it's possible that Stepho would be told "infamous gentleman thief" when it wasn't in Naomi's pm. And frankly, with how Naomi botched her claim (but is very likely town) I am not willing to base a claimed cop's life on anything she says. Her pm might say something about her being famous or well known and she doesn't know to tell us. She didn't know to tell us she was a 1-shot right away, after all.

As long as the possibility exists that stepho is the cop, it is STUPID to lynch Stepho today and imo only scum will push it. It does not hurt us AT ALL to let him live one more day, and it might hurt us A LOT if we lynch him and he flips cop. He should be given at least one more night to get info. If you want to lynch him tomorrow, go for it. At least then if he flips town cop we have decent info.

Basically, if you are town you should think about this and at least let Stepho live one more day in case he's our cop. If you're scum, keep pushing his lynch because it will make it easier to spot you.

Can I get some other insight on both Amished and my Dramonic cases? He is a much better lynch than Stepho but he is the only one who has commented on it. Anyone?

[ZazieR]

First, I''ll respond to post 2554 as Setael responded to my questions.

It is possible that Stepho misspoke when he said he was Innocent. It appears he was inferring this from the “fellow Innocents” phrase. I think it is possible that the “good” faction (i.e. power roles) have “fellow innocents” though they are not themselves an Innocent.

Which is why Amished and Naomi have both stated they don't have it?

*And yet Amished thinks Stepho's claim might be legit. How do you reconcile this? I think it is fail to auto assume this type of thing is definitive.

I think there is a chance Stepho is telling the truth about his claim, and anything that seems to be contradicting what the mod said has come from Stepho misspeaking or misunderstanding game mechanics that really weren't clear to any of us until the mod clarified in thread.

Examples?

*anything meaning EVERYTHING. i.e. saying he was Innocent

(There is also a LOT of sense in stepho's statement that it has been narrowed down quite a bit today and his pool is very small for finding scum tonight.)

Elaborate, please.

*Several people have outed themselves as vanillagers (assuming scum does not have access to the vanilla pm). This narrows down which players can be power roles or scum. This makes it easier for a cop to find scum.

-The first response.
Very scummy. In post 2529, Setael stated that she thought Stepho was scum, until he made this post:

I am not a "Vanillager". I have the abilities I claimed. My PM specifically states "and fellow Innocents", and I am quite obviously a pro-town role.

The reason is what I quoted from her in my previous post. Now that I''ve reminded her that this isn''t true (unless Naomi and Amished are scum), she still doesn''t think he is scum. So I want to hear an explanation for this.

-Second response.
Failed argument. Stepho has claimed to be a role cop who also learns the allignment of the one who he investigates. According to him, it states pro-town/ anti-spirit. So why claim Innocent when according to your PM received from your investigation, it should be pro-town?

Other than the above, the mass Appeal, the back-tracking and the threats, this isn''t a scummy post. For examples of the last three:

As long as the possibility exists that stepho is the cop, it is STUPID to lynch Stepho today and imo only scum will push it. It does not hurt us AT ALL to let him live one more day, and it might hurt us A LOT if we lynch him and he flips cop.

He should be given at least one more night to get info. If you want to lynch him tomorrow, go for it. At least then if he flips town cop we have decent info.

Basically, if you are town you should think about this and at least let Stepho live one more day in case he's our cop. If you're scum, keep pushing his lynch because it will make it easier to spot you.

[dramonic]

What Dev said

[ZazieR]

It is possible that Stepho misspoke when he said he was Innocent. It appears he was inferring this from the “fellow Innocents” phrase. I think it is possible that the “good” faction (i.e. power roles) have “fellow innocents” though they are not themselves an Innocent.

Two reasons why this is wrong as I''ve already stated:
-Amished and Naomi have claimed not to have the part of ''fellow Innocents''.
-He''s claimed to be a role cop who gets allignment from the player he investigates. He received according to him, pro-town and anti-spirit. And as said by him, nowhere was Innocent stated:

The word "Innocent" does not appear in my PM about Naomi.

Setael, if Stepho hadn''t claimed a powerrole, would you have voted him?

Worst case scenario, we lynch him and it turns out he's our cop. It would be incredibly damaging to the town and we may end up going after those who pushed his wagon, when they could very easily be Innocents that saw a contradiction in something that was just Stepho misunderstanding/misspeaking. It would not be THAT awful if we let him live another day even if it turns out he's scum.

As long as the possibility exists that stepho is the cop, it is STUPID to lynch Stepho today and imo only scum will push it.

Contradictory much?

[ZazieR]

@Stepho

If you thought you were Innocent alligned and you received a result that doesn''t state Innocent regarding your investigation according to you. Then how come you didn''t think that you two were different alligned?

[dramonic]

Worst case scenario, we lynch him and it turns out he's our cop. It would be incredibly damaging to the town and we may end up going after those who pushed his wagon, when they could very easily be Innocents that saw a contradiction in something that was just Stepho misunderstanding/misspeaking.

It would not be THAT awful if we let him live another day even if it turns out he's scum

.

As long as the possibility exists that stepho is the cop, it is STUPID to lynch Stepho today and imo only scum will push it.

Contradictory much?

Not that much <<

[ZazieR]

He said that he was an innocent. He now says he is not an innocent. A power role would know that they were not an innocent. Did he misspeak when he said Naomi's role is "Infamous Gentlemen thief"?

No. He said he was Innocent.
But based upon information gotten, it''s still obv a lie.

[ZazieR]

Worst case scenario, we lynch him and it turns out he's our cop.

It would be incredibly damaging to the town and we may end up going after those who pushed his wagon, when they could very easily be Innocents that saw a contradiction in something that was just Stepho misunderstanding/misspeaking

. It would not be THAT awful if we let him live another day even if it turns out he's scum.

As long as the possibility exists that stepho is the cop, it is STUPID to lynch Stepho today and imo only scum will push it.

Contradictory much?

Not that much <<

You bolded the wrong part

[ZazieR]

Sigh.

People really, Steph claim is already too stinky to even consider the probs of being legit. Yeah, mod could be fucking with us or with him, or he claimed poorly or for some bizarre reason, he could be telling the truth and Im getting things wrong, but the proabilities of this happening are extremely low compared to the probabilities of he being scum fakeclaiming, specially when we have a deadline is in two days and we really cant afford another no lynch. specially a lynch full of information like his.

tl;dr Lynch Stepho.
The wise Alpaca has spoken.

[Setael]

Is it really IMPOSSIBLE that one power role would have "fellow innocents" in their role pm and others wouldn't? In THIS game when nothing is impossible? The mod even lets completely inexperienced players in. Just to mess with us. Anything is possible.

Before stepho's claim, i'd have preferred a Dev vote but yes I probably would've voted stepho. I might even vote Stepho tomorrow. I just want to see a result tomorrow from both him and Naomi. I think this will greatly benefit the town and I can see no reason not to.

@zazier - on the off chance that stepho is really the cop, I think he should live one more day. Assuming I'm wrong and he's scum, can you name ONE way it hurts us to let him live one more day?

[Naomi_Saotome]

naomi wrote:
If Stepho comes out scum I will probably look into Pyro/Xtoxm as possible scumbuddies

Where are you getting this conclusion? Xtoxm and Pyro have pushed Stepho's lynch harder than anyone. If anything, they're maybe scum if he's really our cop but if he's scum they are NOT likely scum buddies imo.

It's possible they wanted townie points, as Stepho said:

2. You know what I'd do if I were scum in this position? I'd sacrifice a fellow scum to try and prove myself. Why not count on that and leave me be for now?

3. It's worth noting that Pyromaniac claimed that Naomi said I'm scum. She did no such thing. My PM specifically says "infamous gentleman thief", and because Naomi's apparently says "gentleman thief" only, you think that is lynch worthy?

[Setael]

Can I get some other insight on both Amished and my Dramonic cases? He is a much better lynch than Stepho but he is the only one who has commented on it. Anyone?

^ This again. I feel like a lot of you are hoping to just get stepho lynched because there's no competing wagon in time. NOW is the time to get a competing wagon, people. At the very least, this will provide info tomorrow depending on who is lynched and their alignment.

[ZazieR]

Is it really IMPOSSIBLE that one power role would have "fellow innocents" in their role pm and others wouldn't? In THIS game when nothing is impossible? The mod even lets completely inexperienced players in. Just to mess with us. Anything is possible.

It is possible that Stepho misspoke when he said he was Innocent. It appears he was inferring this from the “fellow Innocents” phrase.

I think it is possible that the “good” faction (i.e. power roles) have “fellow innocents” though they are not themselves an Innocent.

Even you don''t think that is true.

And there are so many things impossible. Let''s try some stuff out:

Mod

- Reveal all the scum

Mod

- Replace Naomi

Tajo

- Turn into a Llama.

[/sarcasm]
In other words, I don''t think it''s true.

Before stepho's claim, i'd have preferred a Dev vote but yes I probably would've voted stepho. I might even vote Stepho tomorrow. I just want to see a result tomorrow from both him and Naomi. I think this will greatly benefit the town and I can see no reason not to.

For what reasons?

@zazier - on the off chance that stepho is really the cop, I think he should live one more day. Assuming I'm wrong and he's scum, can you name ONE way it hurts us to let him live one more day?

-Scum confusion (Day 3)
-Scum bussing (Day 3)
-Scum talking during the night to set another player up the next day.
-Stepho can use a possible scum powerrole.

[ZazieR]

@Setael

Wait, you think that scum are pushing the Stepho lynch right now. So why aren''t you looking into those players?

[ZazieR]

I wanted to know so that I could look at future power role claims (if any) and see if they were legit or not. Clearly having that knowledge out there would probably influence scum claiming, and I could then contrast that with what I have in my PM if they say something that's kinda weird or doesn't line up.

Like Stepho having claimed ''fellow Innocents'', while you and Naomi have claimed it says ''fellow humans''?

I played the games a long time ago (probably about a year?) and only once. While going through, I thought of my character as the gatekeeper and not the caretaker. Minor difference in title, but that's just how I referred to him and why I said it that way at the start.

So why claim to be the gatekeeper, while you claim that your role PM says caretaker?

For the Innocent thing, right now it's mod-guessing. Is it a role (like vanilla townie), an alignment (like pro-town) or what? If it was construed as an alignment by Steph, I can easily see where he'd say he's innocent as I'd be the same.

It''s a role as the mod stated. Also, does the second make sense when a claimed role cop who also gets allignments according to him, claims to be Innocent, while the PM about his investigation apparently never stated Innocent?

[ZazieR]

2. You know what I'd do if I were scum in this position? I'd sacrifice a fellow scum to try and prove myself. Why not count on that and leave me be for now?

Oh, circular logic. Scummy.
Also, we''ve been over the second part before. You know. When Elmo asked what happened to your wagon of day 1.

[ZazieR]

As of now, I don't know if Stepho was caught fake-claiming... or that he made the mistake of using the word 'innocent' simply to describe himself as town, as apposed to scum.

So why do you think he''d claim ''allignment''?

The fact that Amished and I did not say 'innocent' is because we posted after the Mod made the clarification. Why would we have said that we were innocent, when clearly innocents are not associated with power-roles...
Stepho never had that chance as he posted before the term innocent was given a specific definition.

Please respond to my argument of him being a role cop after Stepho has responded to it.

Because he did not know what innocent meant, I will discard this to ponder later. If someone can give me another reason to vote Stepho that does not involve this argument, I'll consider voting Stepho. Until then I have no reason not to believe his claim.

Well, you did find him scummy during day 1. I don''t think you''ve explained why these suspicions got dropped, so that would be nice to hear.
Also, as I already said, the part about him pushing the devil smiley argument against Lamont was scummy as he didn''t question him during his PR act.
And this post.

[ZazieR]

I really felt that this statement needed to be made, as it implies that one is 'good' aligned...

though as we have seen, innocents are caught in the struggle between good and evil. Trilby is very much caught up in the struggle. In regards to this matter, we find out that every 'innocent' is caught up in this struggle.

This statement = ''I probably don't deserve to be here''

Can you explain the bolded?

[ZazieR]

Sironigous is not currently a major player, plus he is obviously not a PR if he was given such a long V/LA, so I'm not complaining.

Mod WIFOM.

[ZazieR]

What Dev said

Uhm, post 2553?

[Knight of Cydonia]

ZazieR, please cut down on the unnecessary spam posting.
I'll condense these into 1 post at some point.

In other news, there will be no votecounts between 7:30pm GMT and 2am GMT. I'm going out to eat some pizza and try and get laid.