The Manor: Chzo Mafia (Game Over!)

[Pyromaniac]

Stepho said he was an innocent. Lets look at the colours. Green is normally pro-town, red-pro-mafia, sometimes different factions have different colours like purple. Blue is neutral.

Are you saying that Innocents are neutral

I'm not saying they are SK or survivor, I am saying that blue is an odd colour to use for the village.

[ZazieR]

Apparently, not for KoC

[Pyromaniac]

Well, never mind then.

[populartajo]

Sorry, I had a very busy and alcoholic weekend.

Ill post at night..

[Setael]

Ok I'm back. I think Dramonic is scum. I see two possibilities, based on his posts re: Stepho
1) He's scum with Stepho
2) He's scum who knows Stepho is telling the truth about his claim, and he therefore has not questioned the claim so as not to draw negative attention if we lynch Stepho and he turns up "Good".

I'm not sure which, but I'm leaning #2.

Devestation: Has provided little defense when faced with potential death, even going as far as to actually self-vote (well, vig-vote). Ridiculous amount of Setael protecting in his later posts. I wouldn't say scummy or town, but there is something between these two going on.

This was extremely scummy. He attempts to tie Dev and me together without giving any details or quoting anything. When Dev calls him on it, he takes it back but never explained why he said it in the first place.

post 2391 was the first indication I had that either dramonic is scum with stepho or knows stepho is town. He doesn't question the claim at all in spite of what so many are interpreting as a clear contradiction. The second is after Amished came back:

That was quite the post Amished.

I don't know bout you guys, but for me that's enough to warrant not voting Steph (not that I was XD)

Dramonic's post 2307 was also really scummy – he seems to vote according to lamont's scumlist. That whole post gave a really bad vibe.

Sironigious post 2331 was also really scummy – no need for him to claim vanilla. It's a really antitown move at this point. I also find it weird that he thinks there's no problem with dramonic's post. Very likely scum if dramonic is scum.

As for Stepho - I am torn about the claim and I certainly see what is being considered a contradiction. However, I do NOT think he should be lynched today. When the mod first posted that Innocents are completely separate from the "Good" faction, I was sure Stepho was scum. However, then he made this statement:

I am not a "Vanillager". I have the abilities I claimed. My PM specifically states "and fellow Innocents", and I am quite obviously a pro-town role.

It is possible that Stepho misspoke when he said he was Innocent. It appears he was inferring this from the “fellow Innocents” phrase. I think it is possible that the “good” faction (i.e. power roles) have “fellow innocents” though they are not themselves an Innocent.

I then started thinking that it seems like Stepho's PM should have said he is on the side of “Good” and I think he'd have mentioned that when he claimed if it does. However, then Amished's did not mention his role PM saying he is "Good".

I think there is a chance Stepho is telling the truth about his claim, and anything that seems to be contradicting what the mod said has come from Stepho misspeaking or misunderstanding game mechanics that really weren't clear to any of us until the mod clarified in thread.

Because there is a chance of this, I think it would be very wise for those on the Stepho wagon to switch. Stepho should be given at the very least one more night to find scum or clear another person. (There is also a LOT of sense in stepho's statement that it has been narrowed down quite a bit today and his pool is very small for finding scum tonight.)

Worst case scenario, we lynch him and it turns out he's our cop. It would be incredibly damaging to the town and we may end up going after those who pushed his wagon, when they could very easily be Innocents that saw a contradiction in something that was just Stepho misunderstanding/misspeaking. It would not be THAT awful if we let him live another day even if it turns out he's scum.

Although purposing polices is usually bad, I have one to suggest. How about if we get to two days before deadline, we lynch the person with the most votes.IF there are two wagons that might possible go through (one at 6, the other at 5) then we will force everybody to chose between one of those two wagons. Sound good?

I agree with this, but I do not think Stepho should be one of the options. He should live at least one more day to give us the info he gets tonight. If we then lynch him and find out he's scum, we can disregard that info.

Of my two options, I am leaning toward thinking Dramonic is scum who knows Stepho is town.

I'd vote Dramonic here, but I already am.

[ZazieR]

It is possible that Stepho misspoke when he said he was Innocent. It appears he was inferring this from the “fellow Innocents” phrase. I think it is possible that the “good” faction (i.e. power roles) have “fellow innocents” though they are not themselves an Innocent.

Which is why Amished and Naomi have both stated they don't have it?

I think there is a chance Stepho is telling the truth about his claim, and anything that seems to be contradicting what the mod said has come from Stepho misspeaking or misunderstanding game mechanics that really weren't clear to any of us until the mod clarified in thread.

Examples?

(There is also a LOT of sense in stepho's statement that it has been narrowed down quite a bit today and his pool is very small for finding scum tonight.)

Elaborate, please.

[dramonic]

Ok I'm back. I think Dramonic is scum. I see two possibilities, based on his posts re: Stepho
1) He's scum with Stepho
2) He's scum who knows Stepho is telling the truth about his claim, and he therefore has not questioned the claim so as not to draw negative attention if we lynch Stepho and he turns up "Good".

I'm not sure which, but I'm leaning #2.

I’m leaning 3) He’s town who thinks the accusations on Stepho are overeaggerated. Also, how could I know if his claim is true or not if I were scum? If I WAS scum I’d be on the Stepho wagon, either for bussing (1) or cuz a cop is a danger for the mafia (2).

Devestation: Has provided little defense when faced with potential death, even going as far as to actually self-vote (well, vig-vote). Ridiculous amount of Setael protecting in his later posts. I wouldn't say scummy or town, but there is something between these two going on.

This was extremely scummy. He attempts to tie Dev and me together without giving any details or quoting anything. When Dev calls him on it, he takes it back but never explained why he said it in the first place.

I thought I answered that already. Well, no matter, here’s the quote Setael:

My flip as vanilla innocent will not be an excuse to hunt Setael. My question in itself is not an excuse to hunt Setael. The reason why I went after Setael was because of his stereotype aggressive mafia reactions, and you should have probably figured that out.

Those first two sentences sound a lot like “don’t attack Set, don’t attack Set” to me <<

post 2391 was the first indication I had that either dramonic is scum with stepho or knows stepho is town. He doesn't question the claim at all in spite of what so many are interpreting as a clear contradiction.

Post 2391:

I'd endorse this [the lynch the highest one when this close to deadline] too if I wasn't currently the highest lynch. It's not that I'm unwilling to die for the town, it's more that I don't think I'm currently a source of info upon death, having not participated a lot.

Lynching lurkers is good and all, but information wise it's crappy.

Also, having read the last few pages, I'm not convinced that the fact Steph called himself innocent is obvscum.

We'll see with his response (if any) I guess.

Me not being convinced = knowing what steph is???

The second is after Amished came back:

That was quite the post Amished.

I don't know bout you guys, but for me that's enough to warrant not voting Steph (not that I was XD)

What I said earlier <<

Dramonic's post 2307 was also really scummy – he seems to vote according to lamont's scumlist. That whole post gave a really bad vibe.

Correction mam, I’m voting according to my own scum list, while taking into consideration the opinion of others. I would probably fail to lynch someone on my scum list who isn’t on anyone else’s, therefore I vote the one who is most likely to be lynched on my scum-list. He’s not any less scummy than the others anyways.

(...)

Of my two options, I am leaning toward thinking Dramonic is scum who knows Stepho is town.

I'd vote Dramonic here, but I already am.

I invite you to go ahead and try lynching me, however I doubt you’ll find a lot of town players who’ll agree with your case on me, it’s quite a bit of a stretch. We’re much better off lynching Rock.

[Pyromaniac]

As for Stepho - I am torn about the claim and I certainly see what is being considered a contradiction. However, I do NOT think he should be lynched today. When the mod first posted that Innocents are completely separate from the "Good" faction, I was sure Stepho was scum. However, then he made this statement:

I am not a "Vanillager". I have the abilities I claimed. My PM specifically states "and fellow Innocents", and I am quite obviously a pro-town role.

It is possible that Stepho misspoke when he said he was Innocent. It appears he was inferring this from the “fellow Innocents” phrase. I think it is possible that the “good” faction (i.e. power roles) have “fellow innocents” though they are not themselves an Innocent.

He said that he was an innocent. He now says he is not an innocent. A power role would know that they were not an innocent. Did he misspeak when he said Naomi's role is "Infamous Gentlemen thief"?

I then started thinking that it seems like Stepho's PM should have said he is on the side of “Good” and I think he'd have mentioned that when he claimed if it does. However, then Amished's did not mention his role PM saying he is "Good".

It says he is on the side of the humans.

I think there is a chance Stepho is telling the truth about his claim, and anything that seems to be contradicting what the mod said has come from Stepho misspeaking or misunderstanding game mechanics that really weren't clear to any of us until the mod clarified in thread.

It has been proven that he has lied. WHy would he?

Because there is a chance of this, I think it would be very wise for those on the Stepho wagon to switch. Stepho should be given at the very least one more night to find scum or clear another person. (There is also a LOT of sense in stepho's statement that it has been narrowed down quite a bit today and his pool is very small for finding scum tonight.)

No.

Although purposing polices is usually bad, I have one to suggest. How about if we get to two days before deadline, we lynch the person with the most votes.IF there are two wagons that might possible go through (one at 6, the other at 5) then we will force everybody to chose between one of those two wagons. Sound good?

I agree with this, but I do not think Stepho should be one of the options. He should live at least one more day to give us the info he gets tonight. If we then lynch him and find out he's scum, we can disregard that info.

Of my two options, I am leaning toward thinking Dramonic is scum who knows Stepho is town.

I'd vote Dramonic here, but I already am.

If the town wants to lynch stepho, then the town should lynch stepho.

[Pyromaniac]

Stepho is scummy enough that it is worth the risk when compared to no lynch.

[Devestation]

They do actually... It simply means that if I've screwed up it might be wise to rethink what I've said because I know I'm nuts

[populartajo]

Sigh.

People really, Steph claim is already too stinky to even consider the probs of being legit. Yeah, mod could be fucking with us or with him, or he claimed poorly or for some bizarre reason, he could be telling the truth and Im getting things wrong, but the proabilities of this happening are extremely low compared to the probabilities of he being scum fakeclaiming, specially when we have a deadline is in two days and we really cant afford another no lynch. specially a lynch full of information like his.

[Amished]

@Zaz: I asked about protecting Hohum on May 31st. To be fair, I only asked about protecting him N3 and not N1 like I did; however I protected him due to him being a confirmed innocent. (which is what I meant by him becoming innocent, it's confirmed that he is to everyone)

I wanted to know so that I could look at future power role claims (if any) and see if they were legit or not. Clearly having that knowledge out there would probably influence scum claiming, and I could then contrast that with what I have in my PM if they say something that's kinda weird or doesn't line up.

To rephrase this section: From going through the games, I always thought of my character as the gatekeeper, and I'm pretty sure they referred to me as that at one time.

I played the games a long time ago (probably about a year?) and only once. While going through, I thought of my character as the gatekeeper and not the caretaker. Minor difference in title, but that's just how I referred to him and why I said it that way at the start.

And you're absolutely correct with how the caretaker worked in the games. That translates here to keeping people around that should be around, etc.

For the Innocent thing, right now it's mod-guessing. Is it a role (like vanilla townie), an alignment (like pro-town) or what? If it was construed as an alignment by Steph, I can easily see where he'd say he's innocent as I'd be the same.

As I'm not voting Stepho now, I don't think he should be the top candidate. However, if he's the only one near a lynch I really won't have a choice and if he is who he says he is then we'll have an absolutely confirmed Naomi (and therefore can't have people keep looking at her to sidetrack whatever we're on) or he isn't who he says he is and we'll get scum today and still have wifom about Naomi. Though it would still appear that Naomi would be more cleared if Steph turned out scum as scumpartners would back each other up more about anything they said about a role and would very likely plan that out last night.

That's another thing that has been bugging me, it seems very clear that they aren't both scum. If anybody, it's Steph only. Scum would have to be very confident to have a confirmation of sorts like this on an un-NK-able person to the rest of the town, what with also my claimed abilities.

[Pyromaniac]

If steph is scum, we are lynch naomi tomorrow. Budding and different factions counter any "only one is scum" argument. Or SK.

[Stephoscope]

Devil's advocate time. Let's say for the sake of argument I'm scum. I'm not, but let's say I am.

1. Why the hell would I have done what I did in regards to Naomi, who is Trilby?
2. You know what I'd do if I were scum in this position? I'd sacrifice a fellow scum to try and prove myself. Why not count on that and leave me be for now?
3. It's worth noting that Pyromaniac claimed that Naomi said I'm scum. She did no such thing. My PM specifically says "infamous gentleman thief", and because Naomi's apparently says "gentleman thief" only, you think that is lynch worthy?

I find it amusing that the mod warned us all that this would be hard, and yet some of you want to lynch me based on crap, not looking at the big picture.

[Pyromaniac]

1. WIFOM
2. WIFOM, you could think you could save her and confirm yourself.
3. Absolutely.

[dramonic]

lol, pyro is bloodthirsty

[Stephoscope]

1. WIFOM
2. WIFOM, you could think you could save her and confirm yourself.
3. Absolutely.

"WIFOM" doesn't invalidate my argument. Pretend I'm scum--you need to tell me WHY THE HELL i would have played the way that i have played.

[Naomi_Saotome]

How come you aren't voting one of the main bandwagons with deadline approaching? I especially want to hear the answer for this question regarding Stepho. As according to you, he's wrong with the claimed result.
Also, if you disagree with one of the main wagons (which appears to be the case as you're not voting one of them), how come you aren't pushing the one you want to see lynched?

I have been taking the time to go over two choices and pick one to place my vote upon.

As of now, I don't know if Stepho was caught fake-claiming... or that he made the mistake of using the word 'innocent' simply to describe himself as town, as apposed to scum.

The fact that Amished and I did not say 'innocent' is because we posted after the Mod made the clarification. Why would we have said that we were innocent, when clearly innocents are not associated with power-roles...
Stepho never had that chance as he posted before the term innocent was given a specific definition.

Because he did not know what innocent meant, I will discard this to ponder later. If someone can give me another reason to vote Stepho that does not involve this argument, I'll consider voting Stepho. Until then I have no reason not to believe his claim.

lol, pyro is bloodthirsty

Pyro's playstyle has been nothing but bloodthirsty...

Naomi says stepho is scum.

don't misquote me and put words in my mouth... You keep doing this, It's quite irritating. I don't know if he is scum or not... I was stating that he was mistaken.
Every time I try to understand you and read you as town... you do something like this..
You keep trying to tie me in with Stepho. It's like you want Stepho to come up scum, so that I look like scumbuddy... if Stepho comes up town, I still look like scum. Personally if Stepho comes out town, I will probably follow up on Stepho's read in post 1688... If Stepho comes out scum I will probably look into Pyro/Xtoxm as possible scumbuddies

[ZazieR]

It says nothing about specific alignment, (or being innocent)

It does, however, mention that I probably don't deserve to be here....

Please say why you added the bolded.
Because you are the first who has claimed this from the claimed powerroles.

Will respond later to the posts made, as I have to go soon.
But hi Naomi

[Naomi_Saotome]

Hello, and thanks for the question.
I really felt that this statement needed to be made, as it implies that one is 'good' aligned... though as we have seen, innocents are caught in the struggle between good and evil. Trilby is very much caught up in the struggle. In regards to this matter, we find out that every 'innocent' is caught up in this struggle.

None of them deserve to die, they're just sheep for the slaughter... I believe that innocent implies that they are townies, who got stuck in the house... for some reason or another.... obviously someone is pulling at the strings, but why? What do they want...

[Naomi_Saotome]

sorry if that sounds kinda confusing, my mind is starting to shut down on me... time for bed, I have to work in the morning...

[Knight of Cydonia]

Sironigous has requested a 2 week period of V/LA, during which he may not post at all. As this is on the extreme limits of what I would consider acceptable, I put it to you - if I recieve PMs from 1/3 of the town stating that they would prefer a replacement to waiting for such a long period of time, then I will accede to the town's wishes. Otherwise, he stays.

[Pyromaniac]

1. WIFOM
2. WIFOM, you could think you could save her and confirm yourself.
3. Absolutely.

"WIFOM" doesn't invalidate my argument. Pretend I'm scum--you need to tell me WHY THE HELL i would have played the way that i have played.

Yes it does. You could be trying some gambit.

[Pyromaniac]

Naomi says stepho is scum.

don't misquote me and put words in my mouth... You keep doing this, It's quite irritating. I don't know if he is scum or not... I was stating that he was mistaken.
Every time I try to understand you and read you as town... you do something like this..
You keep trying to tie me in with Stepho. It's like you want Stepho to come up scum, so that I look like scumbuddy... if Stepho comes up town, I still look like scum. Personally if Stepho comes out town, I will probably follow up on Stepho's read in post 1688... If Stepho comes out scum I will probably look into Pyro/Xtoxm as possible scumbuddies

I am not putting words in your mouth. You said something that absolutely damns him. Unless the mod lied. I can't even begin to imagine how fucked up that would be. If stepho did not claim cop, I would be lynching you. I don't play

this

aggressively as scum. That is not WIFOM that is meta. I hate to use meta as a defense, but I have not really seen your case. Besides trying to get stepho lynched and accusing you.

[Devestation]

Sironigous is not currently a major player, plus he is obviously not a PR if he was given such a long V/LA, so I'm not complaining.