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[Adel]

so you posted this within two hours of the roles being introduced

Unvote

I think I want to hear from the other members of our team before we get a "hammer".

and you totally failed to do any further independent analysis, failed to collaborate with your accounting colleagues to examine other options, and failed to pressure other members of your accounting team to weigh in?

[Adel]

That's a gutsy plan.

what is "gutsy" about it?

Earlier in the thread, the "safe" bet was to take two trackers and a roleblock. You are suggesting something radically different.

so I ask you again, what is "gutsy" about my plan? It seems to me that I was just following through with due diligence that you have not displayed.

[Seraphim]

so you posted this within two hours of the roles being introduced

Unvote

I think I want to hear from the other members of our team before we get a "hammer".

and you totally failed to do any further independent analysis, failed to collaborate with your accounting colleagues to examine other options, and failed to pressure other members of your accounting team to weigh in?

I was too busy defending myself from bullshit attacks by the rest of my team to pressure them unfortuantely.

Also, I never said that gutsy was a bad thing. As I already stated, it is a completely different plan than what has been stated in the past.

scot should assign PGO+Tracker to the same creative team, and busdriver to another.

The busdriver should target any two players who aren't a member of the other creative teams. The busdriver should not tell his creative team partner who he targeted until the next day when a full disclosure of all movements is made.

The scum will be limited to targeting a player who isn't on a creative team (for fear of hitting the PGO, or outing that they knew who the PGO was) and either the CEO or the CD will be a likely target for the busdriver.

Essentially, this plan will tie the scum hands to killing a member of the accounting team, the most vanilla members of this game.

So, here's the plan. Let's create three theoretical groups, Group A, Group B, and Group C.

Group A recieves the PGO and the tracker.
Group B recieves the bus driver.
Group C recieves nothing.

Group A targets a random player, perhaps the CEO or someone equally important with the PGO.

Group B switches someone who is CD and CEO with someone who is NOT CD and CEO, probably someone in accouting.

Group A tracks a random player and does not say who this player is.

One problem is the part where you talk about the member of Group A deciding who to bus drive without telling partner. Both partners know who is targeted.

---

IF GROUP A HAS SCUM,
-Scum will be able to avoid the tracker.
-Scum will be able to avoid the PGO.


IF GROUP B HAS SCUM,
-Scum will know who is getting bus driven...if it's someone they want to target, they can target the other person instead. Basically, they beat the bus driver by targeting the person who they are not targeting.

One problem I can forsee is the Bus Driver and PGO somehow interacting or the tracker targeting the PGO. However, these problems are minimal.

This plan seems fairly sound but if both teams have scum they might be able to manipulate events in their favor.

[scotmany12]

Group A tracks a random player and does not say who this player is.

Group A doesn't get to choose anyone to be the PGO. The PGO is one of those two. They don't get to assign that ability to anyone.

[Seraphim]

Hmmm. Reading is tech.

If the PGO can only target one of their own, that runs a whole fuckload of WIFOM. So one creative team is safe.

I like this plan better now.

[Adel]

One problem is the part where you talk about the member of Group A deciding who to bus drive without telling partner. Both partners know who is targeted.

so long as we can make our submission via PM to Korts, our partner doesn't have to know what that submission was.

[Seraphim]

Mod: Will the creative teams be able to privately PM you their decisions without their partner's knowledge or do both members need to reach a consensus?

[Goatrevolt]

I like Adel's plan. It affords a sort of protection to the important roles by narrowing down the scum who would kill any of the protected players.

Here's an alternative idea along that same vein that is slightly riskier but I also feel slightly stronger of a play:

Group A: PGO + Roleblocker
Group B: Bus Driver
Group C: A giant shaft

Goes roleblocker over tracker in hopes of shutting down a scum kill rather than merely tracking it. Riskier in that the roleblocker could block the bus-driver, with potential for more success in that, if successful, would both stop + determine who made a scum kill instead of merely knowing who did it.

If the roleblocker targets another member of the creative team, they would have a 1/4 chance of hitting the bus driver, vs. if they do hit the scum kill, we also keep a town player alive. If the roleblocker targets any member who is not one of the 6 Copy/Art players and a kill goes through, it's the exact equivalent to tracking them and seeing that they did nothing. So we still get the same results, with the added clause that we keep a townie alive on success.

[Budja]

I agree with goat.

Roleblocker is better than tracker, stopping a mafia kill & very probably catching scum > catching scum.

The only possible negative is that the mafia

could

no kill to mislead us.

[TDC]

Just going on record that a Tracker result isn't clearcut either, considering that the rules post mentions Framer/Undertaker.

[Goatrevolt]

The only possible negative is that the mafia

could

no kill to mislead us.

Hm...I didn't think about that.

Although, no-killing to frame someone could backfire if the roleblocker ended up targeting scum anyway. So unless the roleblocker is scum, and no killed to frame someone, then I don't think this would be an issue. And if the rolelbocker is scum, and no killed to frame someone, then we would know the roleblocker was scum after the framed player turned up town.

[Budja]

I thought framer was just for cops? I'm not sure wha the undertaker role is .

[Goatrevolt]

I thought framer was just for cops? I'm not sure wha the undertaker role is .

The undertaker screws with a tracker. It makes the tracked player appear to have targeted someone who was killed.

[Korts]

Mod: I might've missed it, but can you confirm that the Bus Driver can actually target himself?

The Bus Driver cannot target themselves.

Mod: Will the creative teams be able to privately PM you their decisions without their partner's knowledge or do both members need to reach a consensus?

Yes, unless their partner also sends in a choice. It is therefore enough that they reach a consensus on who uses the ability.

[Adel]

Who has played with Budja before?

[Goatrevolt]

Who has played with Budja before?

Me.

[Nuwen]

I can see utility is assigning PGO and tracker to the same creative team. That would prevent the risk of scum targeting that creative team for a kill, and preserve the tracker result.

options:
A: Tracker + PGO to same team (scum won't target for a kill)
B: Tracker + Tracker to same team (scum would kill one of the trackers, and the remaining partner could be scum)
C: Bussdrive Creative Director with patsy
D: Assign PGO and Bussdriver to same creative team, switch High Value Target with PGO.
E: Assign tracker to two different creative teams. Also assign PGO to one of those teams (leaves creative director exposed)

I'm wondering how important it is to preserve our creative teams - if two actions can be assigned per pair, we need four of them at most. Condensing actions to two teams tightens up result loops.

Role assignments should be kept as private as possible (i.e. between the creative director and each team, none of the teams should be aware of each other's roles). It's easier to pinpoint where information leaks are if fewer players are aware of each other's roles during day 2.

A set of tracker+PGO, roleblocker+pgo, and tracker+tracker all guarantee that we'll get

some

set of results tomorrow.

[Nuwen]

@Nuwen

How is my "oppurtunism" any more oppurtunistic than Ren's? Ren, in our quick topic and here, has accused three different players of being scum.

Gut, strongly influenced by your eagerness to sink your claws in any suspicion dropped in our QT. Right now, you're attempting to play off of Cay's OMUGSy attitude towards Ren and Ren's focus on Scot.

Let's examine that section of activity in our QT,

Seraphim

: Do you think we caught scum in Scot?

crywolf20084

: you guys are overreacting imho.

Ren Hoek

: Am I explaining it well enough in the thread?

If scotmany gives powers at random, because there is less scum than town, and more strikingly on Day 1, most powers should be in the hands on town, statistically.

If he does significantly WORSE than random, which he can do deliberately if he's scum, then he will escape scrutiny by blaming it on bad luck and his inability to find scum.

If we don't lynch him, we should shame him and manipulate him, if he's scum, into giving all the power roles to townies.

The other option is of course to lynch him.

Seraphim

: Overreacting is fun though.

Not to mention that the Creative Director is the only role that we can replace.

Ren Hoek

: @crywolf

Over reacting gets the game rolling. Why do you care so much about scotmany? Why are you bothered that we're pressuring him?

I find it hard to imagine a townie worrying about other player's over reaction to another player whose alignment this townie presumably doesn't know.

It's easier to imagine that you're scum with scotmany.

crywolf20084

: I'm not really particularly bothered, but I do think however he's not scum at this time. I haven't seen anything that he's said that has made me jump at him yet, but I will watch him with you guys.

I mean really, handing out roles at this time really would be slightly random. It's D1. Like when scot said that PGO at this time could be given to scum, its very true. We don't have a huge idea who's scum and who's not. Its the begining of the game, its like a random vote, only this has a bit more power.

Seraphim

: Yay for massive reaching! Whee!

crywolf20084

: i totally missed that you called me scum with scot.
@sera, who's reaching? me or ren?

Seraphim

: Ren accusing you of being scum with scot was total and complete reaching.

Seraphim

: Also, if one of Ren or myself is scum, Scot is definitely NOT scum. I don't think that any mafia player would try to discredit their creative director who is in such a powerful position.
Nuwen: Seraphim, do Ren's accusations against Cay alter your belief that Scot is scum?

Seraphim

: In all honestly, I think I want one of those two lynched later today. Ren is definitely reaching when he says Cayke is scum with scot.

Seraphim

: Honestly, if I had to make a choice between the two, I think Ren is more suspcious. I'm not going to state this in the thread yet though as I still want pressure on Scot. It is CRUCIAL that we make sure he is not scum.

Does anyone else see what I see? Seraphim is disinterested in pursuing each "suspicious" player for information and is more concerned with securing support for lynches.

[Seraphim]

Honestly, if I had to make a choice between the two, I think Ren is more suspcious. I'm not going to state this in the thread yet though as I still want pressure on Scot. It is CRUCIAL that we make sure he is not scum.

...?

Yep, this definitely looks like disinterest in information to me.

[Seraphim]

Congratulations, Nuwen, you've stumbled onto one of my major weaknesses as a Mafia player. Scum, town, third-party, I am way too excited for the game to progress and for lynches to happen. Every game I've been seen as "oppurtunistic" because I'm simply eager to see people dead and the game to progress. There is no greater euphoria than a player's reveal after death when I finally get to see whether or not I was correct in my read of them. It's been my downfall many many times.

[Nuwen]

How do you think WIHII reflected your "major weaknesses?" Your strengths?

[Ren Hoek]

...you've stumbled onto one of my major weaknesses as a Mafia player. Scum, town, third-party, I am way too excited for the game to progress and for lynches to happen. Every game I've been seen as "oppurtunistic" because I'm simply eager to see people dead and the game to progress.

Self-metas are sus.

Is trying to find out the town's future night choices another of your weaknesses?

[curiouskarmadog]

ok rereading the game mechanics so I make sure I got....will post something later.

[Seraphim]

How do you think WIHII reflected your "major weaknesses?" Your strengths?

War in Heaven 2 was probably the first game where I started to notice this weakness. I was constantly jumping from target to target, hoping to replicate the success of our first hit, the death of Shinnen who flipped scum.

My one strength is finding game balance, something I didn't have a chance to show in WIH2. In endgames, I am usually able to detirmine who is fake-claiming and who is telling the truth.

@Ren

That comes from my excitement for the night phas, for the lynch, for just seeing people die and the game progress.

[FaerieLord]

Yeah, whole day out yesterday, and just came back to notice this game started. Give me a few hours to get into this.