Newbie 799 - Katana Village (Game Over!)

[edmund.angles]

EBWOP: I have just named a new superhero: The Mevorra

[Belili]

Belili, in your examination of the case against Mev, it seems to be that Mev supports people a fair bit. Isn't this an inherently townie trait? It would seem to me that the scum would do the opposite, and attempt to rain hell down wherever possible, hoping to bring about a quicker lynch.

By "supports" I meant supports voting for/lynching. Not supports as in defends.

[James.Denholm]

Oh... right.

I'll take that back then.

I won't hammer, as there's still six days or so, and I don't think Mev has really defended himself. I'd like to see him do so.

Come on, Mev, there's still time!

[wickedswami]

I'm sorry but I won't be able to play anymore as of now. Please have me replaced

regards:

Wickedswami

[Mevorra]

James.Denholm:

Any accusations that have been directed towards me, I feel I have already said what I wanted to say about. If you have any other questions or comments, post them, but for now, I'm done.

[nureins]

Wishingtovotebutnothavingavoteforher: weeping

nureins, you don't seem to have ever unvoted Mevorra, so your vote for me doesn't count.

i know. Precisely for that reason i said that id wish to vote also for you, but i had only 1 vote.

[quote="GreenDude] And one more thing, I've figured out that it's ok for townies to lie. In fact it can save them from being killed during the night.`[/quote]

Townies never lie. The only admissible semi-lie is to be silent and cover their roles,, if they have some until they are forced to claim. This is a very general accepted rule. It is the only way to find mafia. Townies being sincere and honest in their comments, emotions and votes. Because then you can discern who is mafia and who is town.

GD, I do not like at all your words. I am yet convinced that Mevorra and Weeping are the best options, but I dont trust you so much as I did...

Also, I suggest we wait a little before someone hammers Mev, unless they seriously consider him to be scum. I say this because I currently can't see any scum in him.

GD and Belili accusations first
Mevorra claim later

And the opinions of those player who remain in the shadow too...

he says that he can't see any scum in Mevorra, but he doesn't seem at all opposed to a Mevorra lynch.
at this point in time, who would you lynch?`

QFT

Well, I would angle towards a GD lynch. I mean, if you put a gun to my head and didn't give me the option of bystanding, it would be GD. Most of that is still gut, however that unexplained vote on 283 (How in hell did I miss that?) looks more than a little fishy to me.

Build your case on GD and push him should be your attitude then...

I'm not terribly opposed to a Mev lynch because there are others (a lot of others) that are voting for him. It's possible that two scum are on that wagon, sure, but that leaves two townies, two which I hope have legitimate reasons to vote for Mev.

That is a ridiculous argument. It applies to every player who is put at L-1. 4 votes, at least 2 townies. Then you will not oppose to any lynch ever, which is very antitown if you consider that player townie.

Any accusations that have been directed towards me, I feel I have already said what I wanted to say about. If you have any other questions or comments, post them, but for now, I'm done.

Well then you can only expect to be lynched. In the case you were a townie, I suggest you to read the thread and make one or two cases about some players to give us hints for new days.


Finally, the days are not very windy lately...

Wind, explain your cases (the same goes for every other player who is not voting or explaining clearly his-her suspicions).

[WeepingWind]

Wind, explain your cases (the same goes for every other player who is not voting or explaining clearly his-her suspicions).

Anyway, really nothing I can say to my defense here that I haven't already said, so vote ahead. I'll be proven right after my (probable) death.

In this post he is clearly indicating his willingness to be lynched, when he is at L-1 with non-voters expressing suspicions towards him, pretty much a guaranteed lynch. For scum, that would be pointless. The only hope they have to avoid their lynch is to present a detailed and convincing case in their favor, which he has not.

After reading through all of his posts I found a couple things:

This post seemed to me to be so.. Phoney, and if I was scum, this is exactly the kind of post I would make.

Some of you have been very against this statement, but personally I find it very helpful to think from a scum point of view when scumhunting.

I've developed a theory.

If I had to make a guess which couple was the scumcouple right now, I'd say GreenDude and wickedswami.

This post I found slightly off. While it is important to find scumbuddies, this only really becomes relevant when one scum has been lynched and connections become imperative in finding the other.

These are the only of Mevorra's posts that I really have issue with. I voiced suspicions towards him to add pressure and get a reaction.

Mevorra has reacted favorably to the pressure put on him,I now withdraw my suspicions.

In the time left until the end of Day 1, I think we should consider others.

[GreenDude]

lol, i don't drink yet. I haven't been very active lately, mostly because I need to pack (i'm leaving in less than a week). I voted mevorra because i thought that it would promote discussion. Which it has. Nothing would have happened if i had kept my vote or if i had changed to to anyone except mevorra. I knew that mevorra wouldn't get lynched because no one would jump on a bandwagon as that shows that they are mafia. Since I do not want mevorra lynched and discussion has picked up (and shouldn't die down) i have decide to

unvote

.

[nureins]

In the time left until the end of Day 1, I think we should consider others.

Your post sounds awfully scummy. You attack mevorra, put some pressure on him, he arrives to L-1 and suddenly you find him a bad lynch. You suggest to consider others but you have not considered ANYONE during all this game.

Please I want to hear everybody´s comments on my post 237 making a case on weep. Right now, i see no (serious) problem in any of the 3 wagonners of mevorra, I see my case adequate, and the only strange vibes i receive are from weep. And obviously, I want to discuss it now, before any lynch to avoid any confusion with that...

[WeepingWind]

The whole point I encouraged getting him to L-1 was to let him prove himself innocent or guilty.

Is it really scummy for me to suddenly break character and instead of casting the final vote on him after already saying I was suspicious of him, jump out and defend him? I just lost a chance at any easy lynch. It isn't bad for scum to lynch their partners to prove their own innocence, and IF we both were scum it would have been a perfect opportunity.

I am not so naive as to think I wouldn't be suspected for all this, and isn't the scum's goal to avoid suspicion? I put Mevorra to a test, and he passed it. I consider him town. Isn't it foolish for town to lynch town?

I would consider myself an incredibly stupid and incompetent scum if I were one, because I have just stuck myself at the center of suspicion with the person some of you consider my compatriot. That frankly, is the most idiotic and simple-minded thing a scum could have done. I do have a shred of common sense.

Also, it is false that I have not considered anyone in this game, I just find that withholding information can be just as useful in finding the scum as dispensing it. It helps to see the reactions of suspects before releasing opinions and summaries, and before they change their stance to accommodate it.

I realize this post sounds exceedingly defensive, but I have a point to make. Think what you like, but I don't believe in lynching town.

[GreenDude]

Actually weepingwind didn't lose an easy lynch. Whoever had placed the final vote would have been suspected. No mafia were going to lynch mevorra and townies weren't suspicious of him enough.

[Tenchi]

I will be gone for a few days. Please note that the deadline is fast approaching. In that case, please also note the rules for a deadline lynch.

[WeepingWind]

Actually weepingwind didn't lose an easy lynch. Whoever had placed the final vote would have been suspected. No mafia were going to lynch mevorra and townies weren't suspicious of him enough.

I beg to differ. If the person who casts their vote last is suspected, no one will want to vote last, resulting in a stalemate. Someone has to cast the last vote if anyone is going to be lynched. And don't you think the scum would be dubious of such an obvious scumtell?

Also, from the direction this was headed, Mevorra had a very high chance of being lynched today.

[GreenDude]

Usually you'd be right. But this time, there is no case on mevorra. If we did have a good case then the final voter would NOT be suspected but because we do not, then the final voter WILL be suspected. I hope i didn't confuse you.

[edmund.angles]

@green: No case on Mevorra? Nothing in this world is ever certain and in a game of Mafia this is especially true. And if you don't think he's suspicious why are you on the wagon? If you do think he's suspicious please explain the case on him from your perspective.

@Mevorra: I think it's time for you to claim. Also please write how you see the different players, remember, dead men tell no tales.

@Weeping: Are you willing to cast the final vote when the deadline comes?

[pikapizza]

GreenDude

I'm saying that I wrote as if 2 replacements weren't going to come by.

what about having two replacements changed the game so much for you ?? what makes the game so different now that the players aren't the same ones ???

James.Denholm

Belili, in your examination of the case against Mev, it seems to be that Mev supports people a fair bit. Isn't this an inherently townie trait?

By "supports" I meant supports voting for/lynching. Not supports as in defends.

how did he make this mistake...?? mevorra hasn't defended anyone at all in any of his posts. this seems to suggest that he doesn't really pay much attention to the arguments of the other posters, which directly contradicts what he mentioned about "trusting" the "legimatimate reason" made by other townies. (post 291) i find it bizarre he would be so trusting if he can't even be bothered to verify their arguments/read the thread.

he hasn't made any effort to find scum. he merely "trusts" the reaction of other players and go with the flow, and are happy lynching the biggest target. this seems to be a sign of scummy logic...

WeepingWind

weepingwind is currently my preferred lynch for D1.

here are some points from nurein's initial argument that i believe remain relevant:

1. She has not taken any clear position up to now. She is an ACTIVE LURKER, as she has posted 12 times without scumhunting at all.

i find this particularly suspicious in light of her recent activity.
her last post on JUNE24 (post 277) had a few answers to some questions directed towards her. after that, she remained silent until JUNE28, about three hours after she was prompted by nureins.

there was plenty to comment on in the thread in those 4 days. where did she go? yet she responded very rapidly to nureins, which seems to be a sign that she is indeed checking the thread, but not posting. her ACTIVE LURKING seems to have evolved into a PASSIVE LURKING -- still a scumtell.

5. Also, in post 5, she shows her first "vibe suspicion" from silver and mevorra. No justification whatsoever provided. In my first view of this vibe suspicion, I thought her vibes showed that she thought the wagonners of GD scummy. In my opinion, that was somehow contradicting the fact that she discussed so much why mafia might not bandwagon.
In post 10, she denies that, and she says:

she claims

I was suspicious of SilverFang and Mevorra before they had voted for GreenDude

That simply cannot be true. Silver voted GD in his first post. Mevorra voted GD in his 5th post. She expressed no opinions about them before they voted GD. Indeed, after their votes to GD, she said:

I have no strong opinions on players as of yet, but I am analyzing.

So it seems clear to me that if she had suspicions on these players, they came AFTER they voted to GD.

her response:

I meant I was beginning to be suspicious while we were still in the random voting stage. I didn't have strong opinions, they were weak.

again, this just can't be true. perhaps it was the case for Mevorra, but in the case of SilverFang, unless this post:

/confirm

somehow struck you as suspicious ?? you could only have begun to suspect him after he voted GD, which is a direct contradiction to what you said before.


Post post 262:

If the deadline on votes would be now, who would you vote for? This goes out to all of you!

It would probably be you.

she spends most of D1 becoming increasingly suspicious of mevorra, and suddenly she's somehow convinced that he's town ?? (noticeably, her defense of Mevorra comes closely after James.Denholm is attacked for NOT defending someone he believes is town) from her post, i gather that she suddenly eliminates Mevorra from her list entirely merely because he's not bothering to defend himself when he's at L-1 ???

the "correct" play for both sides is to defend themselves to the death -- scum because they need to survive, and townie because they should, to the best of their knowledge, prevent a mislynch... and the only thing that townies know for sure is their own alignment. (so either way, it's bad play by Mevorra)

if her "test" really worked, then winning the game would merely involve taking turns placing pressure and votes on people and lynching the ones who tried to defend themselves at all.

in conclusion, WeepingWind:
1) lurks, passively and actively. makes no attempt to help find scum, but seems happy to let the rest of the players fight amongst themselves until specifically asked to contribute.

2) has made a contradiction when attempting to explain her suspicions on Silverfang, which has still not been sufficiently explained.

3) inconsistent -- abruptly changes her mind on Mevorra when he's getting close to a lynch with no outside arguments, attempts to explain it with an argument based on WIFOM.

therefore,

Vote: WeepingWind

[nureins]

Important to notice for future maybe:

1. Pika pushed two different wagons (GD and WEEP) when Mevorra was gaining attention. The first player more or less when Mevorra got the first votes, the second when mevorra got two extra votes and arrived to L-1.

2. That can be significant, as Pika has not expressed any clear opinion on Mevorra. Look at the following list of "difficult to read, when i have more time, later in the game, neutral, look your case in detail, etc". This is HIS POSITION on a player who has been largely analyzed and currently at L-1.

3. Pika, please tell us openly if you consider mevorra scummy or not. If you find Weep or GD much scummier. If you are pushing these two wagons because you are uncomfortable with a mevorra lynch, etc...

difficult to get a proper read on him (MEVORRA) due to his lack of meaningful contribution. would like to see more from him.

will look further into

mevorra

, belili and wicked when i have time . seeya !!

i think you (MEVORRA) are scummy because you have complied to all my wishes as you are trying very hard to appease the town in order to fit in better like the sneaky scum you are !!! furthermore you fabricate a case in order to cast suspicion elsewhere !! and so on !!!

TWO POSTS BEFORE VOTING GREENDUDE, LATER ADMITTED TO BE A JOKE.

[quoe="pika"]my stance towards

mevorra

is fairly neutral at the moment, but i'll look into your case when i have time later. my "attack" was actually a joke in order to show how almost anyone's actions can be interpreted from a scum perspective, and that his "theory" against Belili held no water.
[/quote]

i'll get back to you with a detailed opinion after a reread. i'll need to reanalyse

Mevorra's

case.

[nureins]

@weep: Tell us your suspicions NOW (please). We only know that you find mevorra townie at the moment, thus, why arent you trying to lynch someone else??? deadline is approaching and your vote uncasted. We are about to lynch a player that you consider townie and you seem quite happy with that...

[nureins]

Since I do not want mevorra lynched and discussion has picked up (and shouldn't die down) i have decide to

unvote

.

But this time, there is no case on mevorra.

Do you consider my case on Mevorra weak?
Do you consider Edmund´s addenda weak?

If this is so, please tell us why, and tell us exactly which your position on Mevorra is.

Whom do you want to lynch?

[pikapizza]

nureins

i am pushing (have pushed) wagons on GD and WeepingWind because i believe that they are far scummier than Mevorra.

i have read the cases against him, but i do not think that that they are convincing. in other words, no, i don't believe that i have reason to believe he is scum. at this point i would much much prefer a Weeping lynch over him. GD's posts have been odd, but i am not prepared to lynch him today. generally i only make note of the people i find suspicious in my post... i should think it is quite clear that if i don't mention a person in my post, i don't find them suspicious.

i'd also like to set that record straight for one of quotes:

but your theory on Belili is faulty. don't start thinking of people from a scum perspective, you could poop out a case on anyone that way......
i think you are scummy because you have complied to all my wishes as you are trying very hard to appease the town in order to fit in better like the sneaky scum you are !!! furthermore you fabricate a case in order to cast suspicion elsewhere !! and so on !!!
you get the idea i think ...

this was the full quote. i appreciate that it's difficult to decipher if your first language is not english, but i was presenting an (clearly unfunny) example of why i believed Mevorra's reasoning was incorrect. (he was thinking of other players' actions from scum perspectives and attempting to create theories that way) i think the joking tone and vast amount of punctuation make this fairly obvious...

these are the major points against Mevorra (feel free to correct me if i missed or misinterpreted anything):

1. Mevorra claims now that he had a new theory when he unvoted GD.

Notice the words of Mevorra when he unvoted.
It is not "a theory" what he had. He had SUSPICIONS. That is important.

i'm not quite sure why this is so important. suspicions or not, that was not how i interpreted Mevorra's post:

I did notice the post, and I accepted it for what it was.
To be honest, my suspicions of GD have been based on a theory that has no foundation. I've had a feeling in my guts about you, but quite frankly, it's disappeared. I have other suspicions at the moment, not directed towards you, but I want to read through the game once more before I "publish" my thoughts.

clearly, he didn't unvote BECAUSE he had suspicions. he unvoted because he realised his theory was bad. by the way, he has other suspicions. therefore, i don't find it particularly important whether he had a "theory" or "suspicions" or just a "gut feeling" at this point.

Honestly, I did not unvote because I noticed that the lynch wasn't going to happen. I unvoted because I realized that my accusations of GreenDude were without any base, and I didn't want to risk a lynch of an active person, especially not if GD is a townie.

2. Mevorra claims now that he read the thread, skimmed my posts and wrote the post during these 9 minutes.

In my opinion, reading 16 posts of Nureins the compulsive writer, some of which are terribly long, giving form to a new "theory" and writting this down in 9 minutes sounds a little bit of improvisation. The skim was really extreme...I maintain my view that he felt forced to unvote because of the pressure and decided to announce new suspects not to appear suspicious.
And given the evolution of the game, I find this scummy.

i accepted Mevorra's explanation -- i think it is perfectly possible to skim for certain things (opinions) in 9 minutes. admittedly his "suspicions" against nureins were almost non-existant, but all of his other arguments have been almost as weak. to me, this is only a sign that he is not a strong player, not that he is scum. he was only "throwing his thoughts out there" -- while i don't think that is beneficial to town, nor is it a scumtell.

3. Mevorra claims now that his theory was materialized in the subsequent post.

Look at these words. Cautious petition to someone, not even considering that action scummy.
...
Notice how he does not accuse me of anything. He says that he is not saying that is a scum behavior. He just finds "easier" for the rest of people that I participate giving thoughts and suspicions.
Where are the SUSPICIONS that he announced in the previous post?

now you're just picking at words. "suspicions" don't necessarily have to be DAMNING STRONG SUSPICIONS. they can also be faint, weak, almost non-existant suspicions. i do not see a contradiction in Mevorra's words.

honestly, i thought you were being fairly tunnelvisioned at this point.

now to edward.angle's additions...

Before the reread: suspicions strong enough to divert attention from GD.
After the reread: No suspicions, even though he found what he was looking for(on nureins).

see above. he did not unvote because he had strong suspicions elsewhere.

3. Theory on Belili:
Outlandish theory. I can't imagine Mevorra debating this in his head and finding it realistic. This leads me to suspect that he is not looking for the truth.
Strong scum signal.

this is the only thing i found slightly suspicious about Mevorra. it could be a sign that he's fabricating arguments, or it could only show that he's not the best of players. at best, it's a very weak scumtell.

4. Scumbuddy speculation:
Mevorra was the first to speculate on scum-buddies and I consider this a scum signal. Any far-fetched speculation is bad for town because it derails scum hunting and I believe that most people would instinctively understand this.
Scum signal.

scumbuddy speculation is very common among first-time players, because they are not experienced enough to realise that it is not an efficient way of finding scum. definitely not a scum signal.

5. What would scum do?:
Both Mevorra's theories (on wicked-green and on Belili) is considering what tactics scum might use. I believe that scum would be much more likely to come up with stuff scum would do[(and misrepresent it, off course) while town is more likely to find stuff that town wouldn't do. This is because they have that perspective themselves.
Scum signal.

this is a valid technique, although it's probably not the most effective.

to sum up, the only thing i found slightly suspicious about Mevorra was the puzzling theory that Belili could be attempting to place suspicion on him by making them seem like a scumpair. alone, i believe that this point is not sufficient to warrant a lynch.

[WeepingWind]

WeepingWind
weepingwind is currently my preferred lynch for D1.

here are some points from nurein's initial argument that i believe remain relevant:

1. She has not taken any clear position up to now. She is an ACTIVE LURKER, as she has posted 12 times without scumhunting at all.

i find this particularly suspicious in light of her recent activity.
her last post on JUNE24 (post 277) had a few answers to some questions directed towards her. after that, she remained silent until JUNE28, about three hours after she was prompted by nureins.

there was plenty to comment on in the thread in those 4 days. where did she go? yet she responded very rapidly to nureins, which seems to be a sign that she is indeed checking the thread, but not posting. her ACTIVE LURKING seems to have evolved into a PASSIVE LURKING -- still a scumtell.

I hadn't been checking the thread in that time frame, as activity had pretty much vanished. When I finally did check it, there were more suspicions voiced against me, including the prompt by nureins.

somehow struck you as suspicious ?? you could only have begun to suspect him after he voted GD, which is a direct contradiction to what you said before.

As I have previously stated, I don't consider the votes in the random voting stage to be very relevant, as they are, well, random.

she spends most of D1 becoming increasingly suspicious of mevorra, and suddenly she's somehow convinced that he's town ?? (noticeably, her defense of Mevorra comes closely after James.Denholm is attacked for NOT defending someone he believes is town) from her post, i gather that she suddenly eliminates Mevorra from her list entirely merely because he's not bothering to defend himself when he's at L-1 ???

the "correct" play for both sides is to defend themselves to the death -- scum because they need to survive, and townie because they should, to the best of their knowledge, prevent a mislynch... and the only thing that townies know for sure is their own alignment. (so either way, it's bad play by Mevorra)

if her "test" really worked, then winning the game would merely involve taking turns placing pressure and votes on people and lynching the ones who tried to defend themselves at all.

The whole point of voicing increased suspicions towards Mevorra was to get a reaction. That doesn't mean I was anymore suspicious than at any other time, I just spoke up. I didn't decide he is probably town just because of his lack of defense, I just looked back at everything he had said, found nothing scummy, and looked at his response to being put at L-1 and found nothing scummy.

I found him not scummy at all, and am now slightly surprised at how he got put at L-1. Some players picked apart every word of his posts and somehow found something to incriminate him which was not obvious to me.

in conclusion, WeepingWind:
1) lurks, passively and actively. makes no attempt to help find scum, but seems happy to let the rest of the players fight amongst themselves until specifically asked to contribute.

Since when have I not been looking for scum? Just because all of my vague suspicions and groundless accusations aren't immediately clear to you doesn't mean I am not looking for the scum. Actually all of you fighting is producing a lot of helpful materiel. And I can't very well defend myself until I have been accused, now can I?

2) has made a contradiction when attempting to explain her suspicions on Silverfang, which has still not been sufficiently explained.

I am still puzzled by what you don't understand. I had sneaking suspicions about SilverFang, but they were never proven to be true or false.

3) inconsistent -- abruptly changes her mind on Mevorra when he's getting close to a lynch with no outside arguments, attempts to explain it with an argument based on WIFOM.

I didn't abruptly change my mind. I wasn't very suspicious of Mevorra to begin with (you asked for "any suspicions") and I voiced suspicions towards him to let him clear or incriminate himself.

therefore,
Vote: WeepingWind

I am glad you are able to put forth clear suspicions now.

@weep: Tell us your suspicions NOW (please). We only know that you find mevorra townie at the moment, thus, why arent you trying to lynch someone else??? deadline is approaching and your vote uncasted. We are about to lynch a player that you consider townie and you seem quite happy with that...

I am not happy with it, but at the moment I haven't been able to find anyone who has completely incriminated them self. I am currently in the process of re-reading to find the most suspicious person.

[GreenDude]

First off, I didn't say I wasn't suspicious of Mevorra, I said we don't have much of a case. Second, I don't have my vote on him anymore.

@pikapizza: I never said the game was different with 2 replacements.

I'm pretty sure I unvoteed! So once more,

unvote

@nureins: I feel we don't have the strongest case on mevorra because all of it is controversial and has an explanation (true or not true). Your ideas against Pika seem good. And pika's ideas against weeping are good. So, the question is: If pika is scum, then weeping isn't. If nureins is scum, then pika isn't, and weeping is. OR, neither are scum. But I think at this moment i would lynch weepingwind. Though I am going to read through a bit more.

Btw people, I am getting a replacement for Day 2, so therefore, this is the last chance to have GreenDude lynched.

@pika: It's edmund not edward.

[GreenDude]

I am not happy with it, but at the moment I haven't been able to find anyone who has completely incriminated them self

Incriminated themself doesn't mean that they are scum. You are saying that you are not looking for scum, but for someone who appears scummy.

[WeepingWind]

No, I am saying there is no one who has proved them self to be scum, as in they have beyond a doubt proven their guilt, so I would like to consider each one of you carefully.

[GreenDude]

Well thats not going to happen any time soon.