Mafia 96 - Murder in Emerald City (Game Over!)

[Mastin]

Why would Khan panic about this?

Fear of being exposed, of course. If it were a roleblocker stopping his action (It was), then he'd be worried about it, in my opinion.

And what makes you think he would claim miller?

Not knowing about the consequences of a miller claim that rofl had pointed out later.

Like I said, I think he's scum. I've had my eye on him all game.
But rofl's points make it so that I don't want to lynch him today. (I'll just roleblock him again to prevent him from getting any actions in.)

[Mastin]

Anyway...
I'll be busy for a while working on something in real life which is close to being finished, and once it is, will give me far more free time. When I come back, I'll catch up and respond to new posts some more.

[VP Baltar]

Nyeh. I need to think about this. I don't like your first two examples of breadcrumbs because you claimed a bunch of different things at the same time (which I definitely felt that if you were scum you were going to refer to when you claimed).

The third breadcrumb is more of what I would expect from town breadcrumbing.

As far as the "roleblocker example" I think you could have easily just have been saying that and are going back to it now because it's convenient.

The thing about breadcrumbs is that they have to look intentional for them to be believable. Is there anything else I should know about?

But you can't doubt that I did block Khan, because there's an overwhelming amount of evidence to prove this to be the case.

What evidence? that you mentioned him in a list of several people? Again, your third supposed breadcrumb looks stronger, but I wouldn't call this evidence overwhelming by any means.

[Wickedestjr]

Then you will inevitably fail to truly counter me. Not responding to everything will leave you looking scummy, because you'll inevitably leave out key parts of my argument.

(Well, you would, except that half of the time, I'm too lazy to check back on my own posts and go by memory.)

Mastin, I think you are forgetting that we have lives. We can't comment on everything that you say, otherwise, we would be extremely behind in the game. Probably ten pages or so. Not responding to everything does not make him scummy. There are people like Mufasa and Empking who haven't contributed anything, and you haven't commented on their scumminess, apart from the scum tell you pointed out about Mufasa that was a long stretch.

1: And, I'll return the favor and sum it up for you:
I'm not wrong.

2: And even if I were, being wrong is not a scum tell.

1: Well your not right all the time.

2: Depends.

So, what?
Being wrong a lot isn't really an issue, now, is it?

Yeah kinda. It may actually put incorrect thoughts into other people's minds. If you are making incorrect statements about yourself, then it may serve as propaganda in your favor and convince others not to be suspicious of you.

^^This is called entrapment at best

Entrapment--laying a trap. In this case, for scum.
What's wrong with that?
Nothing.

Sometimes entrapment can trap the wrong people, and sometimes if it does, then it may have been the intention. But who were you "trapping" in this case anyway?

I. Never. Rolefish. Like, ever. Never in my games, have I rolefished, and I take SERIOUS offense at the accusation. Not as scum. Not as town.

Read it at face value: Me wanting to trap scum.
Stating whether it worked or not, however, would be anti-town to do, because it would give the scum information that they otherwise would not have had, allowing them to safeclaim in the future. (I have a theory on the matter. If I decide to reveal whether the trap ensnared scum or Khan passed, I'll also reveal the theory I have about scum PM's vs. town PM's.)

First you say that you never rolefish, and then you don't even defend yourself, but instead point out something anti-town that you did that you admit seems anti-town. In case you don't know what I mean, you pointed out that it was anti-town to give the scum more information then they already have, but asking for more flavor in a role claim does give them more information in case they were planning on role claiming in the future.

Summaries suck. Simple.
[/alliteration]
Seriously, though. They don't convey the entire message. If you want the case against me, I will be happy to give you a PBPA on your scummy actions which will prove that you are scum.
But I'm not going to make a summary of the accusations.

Not that hard to understand.

Summaries surely shouldn't suck.

If it is something that'll prove that he is scum, then give it to us if you already haven't or point it out to me if you have.

Honestly, me, VP, and a few others are probably the only ones that'll read everything that you say. If you think there are points that absolutely can't be skipped then bold them or point them out at the end. This can be included in your summary. Also, summaries are good for revealing your overall opinions on the situation, because you don't seem to do that too often.

Note the underlined, and the italicized. Emerald is part of the role, not the flavor.

I agree with this. Just in case people weren't aware of this, but I am suspicious of both Mastin and Khan.

Lynch anyone who doesn't claim Emerald *role* when claiming, please.

I think this is scummy.

Yes, it does. If Khan has a vital role to your faction (be it either Cerulean or the

other faction

), or you have a small Mafia Faction (this would be ESPECIALLY true if you're Cerulean.), then defending him would be your best shot at winning.

Hmm... Do you know something that we don't? That is sure what it seems like.

Okay, "so be it"-->Lynch VP. You know that, correct?

I think VP meant something else when he said that. You seem pretty eager to lynch in this quote and the one before the previous.

2: And, again, things could be different this game. A smaller mafia faction than one would expect in a game of this size, or Khan being an absolutely vital mafia role (only power role, for example), would make practically any player defend their buddy.

I agree with Mastin when he says this, but I don't think it means anything.


There is tons more to come.

[Lowell]

unvote

mastin, on the condition that he not ask me to read any of his posts ever.

Claim is fine. There are a million killing roles and he claimed a powerrole. He'll be dead soon anyway.

[VP Baltar]

Alright, after much thought

Unvote

. That third breadcrumb looks too intentional for me to doubt at this moment. And either way, scum have their target for tonight.

Vote MafiaMann

Previously stated case, plus his unvote of Mastin without any sort of question or reasoning doesn't strike me hard as coming from town.

I need to look over my exchange with him again after this whole mastin sideroad.

[iamausername]

-=Vote Count #21=-

Mastin (6) - Kublai Khan, roflcopter, Wickedestjr, Mufasa, curiouskarmadog, ckool5000
Kublai Khan (3) - ZazieR, Empking's Alt, Namttam
VP Baltar (2) - Kise, Mastin
Hayker (1) - Faraday
ckool5000 (1) - fallen angel
Achilles (1) - SerialClergyman
MafiaMann (1) - VP Baltar

Not Voting (4) - Achilles, dvdkid13, Redith, Hayker, MafiaMann, Lowell

11 to lynch.

[curiouskarmadog]

fine with my vote...

[VP Baltar]

Heh, as much as I would like to still lynch Mastin CKD, it's not the best play we could make and I'm sure you probably know this. If the scum in this game have any sense, they will make short work of him tonight and we won't have to read his inane posts tomorrow. We're best to lynch someone else who has been scummy so far in this game.

[ckool5000]

unvote

I believe Mastin to some extent.

(P.S. I got back, and now it's late at night. I'll get some good sleep and see if I can re-read with a clear head.)

[SerialClergyman]

A lot of your crumbing defies the point of a breadcrumb. A breadcrumb should be early and specific, in my opinion. The later it is, the more likely it could be scum preparing for an imminent claim. The less specific it is, the more likely it's scum keeping their options open for later. A good breadcrumb very specifically near the start of the game locks you into that role, so when you claim later it's immediately obvious that that is the only reasonable claim you could have made, not just the one that convineintly fits the situation at the time you're claiming it.

The ones in the RVS were a) in the RVS, which you tell us to dismiss as you joking around, and b) far too vague. You could claim anything you like and point to something there.

The later ones could well have been made in preparation of a claim given pressure on you was mounting. (ie you see you have to claim something, start mentioning roleblockers then a couple of posts later, you claim. )

There is the one about speculating quite specifically about KK and his night choices, and that's probably the most convincing.

Either way - no need to lynch a claimed rolebblocker. (EMERALD roleblocker zzz)

I'm going to join the MafiaMann wagon. I liked Achilles last response to me, and despite some disagreements thought it at least started to get him on the right track. MafiaMann on the other hand has looked scummy as anything over the recent Mastin wagon, to go with his earlier behaviour. Specifically, posts 715, 742-3, 819 and especially 800 recently, and earlier his false dialog with FA @ 256-265 and 390ish set off alarm bells for me. Finally, I found the following posts scummy, 273, 321, 357, 645.

You can find more elaboration on what I found scummy about these posts in my post @ 702, along with a fairly strong case presented by VP @ 643.

unvote Achilles, vote MafiaMann

[Wickedestjr]

Fear of being exposed, of course. If it were a roleblocker stopping his action (It was), then he'd be worried about it, in my opinion.

If Khan was scum and had a few partners in crime, then you are assuming that he made the kill? It doesn't make sense to me. Now they know not to have Khan make the next kill if you are right.

And either way, scum have their target for tonight.

You seem to be pretty sure about that.


For now I think I will go for a MafiaMann lynch. Not only has he been acting strangely, but his lynch will tell us something about FA.

[Wickedestjr]

Oh right.

Unvote

Vote: MafiaMann

[Wickedestjr]

Still replying to Mastin.

Of course, only just a bit. She's looked at other suspects as well, you know, and dropped a few fair FoS's every once and a while

This is true.

1: Wants me dead without expressing the opinion of me being scum,

2: I point out what I see--that is what I saw, a potentially huge scumslip.

3: This is not a counter to the point. You're not explaining how it is NOT what you were saying.

1: He has expressed his opinion of you plenty of times. Did you see the 45 points against you that were a few posts before your's?

2 & 3: What is the scum slip that you two are talking about?

If I see a slip, and it's not regarding me, do you want me to not point it out?

You shouldn't defend others, you should let them defend themselves.

Well, that's because I'm mirroring your words. I can't word it this way:
"Note how VP is referring to the rest of the town in third person", because that implies that he, himself, is referring to the town as part of it, which contradicts with the accusation that he is not part of it.
While as saying
"Note how VP is referring to the town in third person" is an accusation that he is referring to the town in the third person, not being part of it himself.

Simple logic, really.

Eh... Not really. I refer to the town as "the town" regardless of my role and I'm sure that others do to. Why are you always the one to point out the weakest scum tells? No it is not simple logic, it is complicated bad logic.

I haven't. :/

There's no way we could ever find out if you were lurking or not. Right now I believe his reason for being inactive for so long.

Not really. I'm having loads of fun scum hunting.

Me too actually.

[Wickedestjr]

Alright, I will. You want the case against you, no? A PBPA will do it rather nicely. Against both you and Khan, because you two are linked.

If so, then do it if you haven't.

And the lack of anyone on the Johnny wagon being able to bring an actual summary of the points against him continues.

It doesn't seem to bother you that some people on the Mastin bandwagon have joined without giving reasons.

FoS: VP

Oh, not really. It's simple. Those who vote for me are scum.

Once again you are attempting to frighten those who think about voting you.

They get thwacked by walls of text from me to prove it (making them miserable from having no choice but to respond to it all or die), and IF I am SOMEHOW lynched through all of that, they often will receive SERIOUS attention after that. (There's a risk that people will go "Oh, this is Mastin. Let's ignore the bandwagon on him." But that's poor play, and is not done often.)

No, we don't have to respond to everything. I just am because nobody else is and you are a big suspect, so it is best if all the things you say are noted.

1: I am not doing so; I've proven this.

2: However, I can say the same about you, BS'ing points against me.

1: Some points you have defended yourself against well, but you have bad reasoning for others.

2: Some points of VP I don't think are good ones, but most of them are.

Trapping scum...

Nope, it was indeed, fishing for flavor.

1: I am giving long posts, that if read in detail, would potentially give scumslips.

2: This is a null tell, as I do it in most of my games.

1: I don't see many good scum slips, I see strange reasoning.

2: True.

[Wickedestjr]

I shot this down already, and you failed to even respond to my counters in your post. Why? Because you know I'm correct and can't counter, of course. They're null tells.

Oh you have defended yourself on this point already. Please show me where.

1: I HAVE defended. You just didn't QUOTE my defenses!

Oh yeah, shame on us for not noticing your defense. Honestly Mastin, if we had to look for your reasoning for something, then it would take forever. It would be like finding a needle in a haystack.

I asked you if you wanted a PBPA on JR and you--you refused to answer.

Do you want a PBPA VP? I'm getting the impression, that you don't want one. Are you scared that the PBPA will point out a lot about you.

[roflcopter]

unvote, vote: mafiamann

[Kublai Khan]

Like a bad day job, I drag myself out of bed and continue to respond to Mastin.

Throwing in the towel-->Giving up-->Admitting you're scum.
Scumslip.

Evidence that Mastin's "scum-hunting" is more smear campaigning than reality. Taking 4 words out of context and labelling them as scummy doesn't make it true.. It's like yellow journalism.

Duh. I've nailed the scum already. And people aren't listening. So, yes, I am going to talk louder (read: large sized font, bolds, italicized, underlined, caps lock) to get the point across.

What's the problem with that?

The problem is that Mastin is brow-beating and badgering people into accepting his point of view. They are tools of intimidation and bullying.

Okay, this is a joke. A seriously bad joke. Khan, understandable; he's scum. Same with VP. Rofl's rofl. Mafia's likely scum, as is Mufasa, and Lowell's with VP and Khan. Wicked shouldn't be on there, as I have plenty of pressure on me already,
But...

Still, that bandwagon's size is alarming.
I can guarantee you that it's mostly scum driven.

Evidence that Mastin's "scum-hunting" is literally just OMGUS.

This is the opposite of the truth, Khan.
I've been presenting my playstyle as a coin. Both pro-town AND ANTI-TOWN AS WELL.

I've been presenting myself, from my actions, as a NULL TELL. Because I'd do this regardless of alignment.

This (and there are many examples of this) is what's known as a Bare Assertion Fallacy. The fallacy is summarized as follows:

• Fact 1: X claims statement A.
  
• Fact 2: X claims that X is not lying.
  
• Conclusion: Therefore, A is true.

This is bad logic. And for the most part it's been the ONLY logic that Mastin has used to defend himself. When someone questions him on it, Mastin resorts to simply repeating himself (and the aforementioned brow-beating) until people stop questioning him (Another fallacious way of arguing: Argument ad nauseam)

The thing is, pro-town players will not attack me in the ways that you and VP have.

It IS my fault for failing to specify the fact that only scum would attack me that hard in that quote. I had done it in previous examples, but forgot to do it this time.

This is a variation on the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Given the fact that most of his arguments are of a fallacious nature, it's surprising that he would insist that only scum would attack him hard. If Mastin is town, I find it much more likely that scum would either not engage him at all, or try to buddy up to him (such as agreements of "Mastin is always like that"). So that they can be unnoticed while other townies go toe-to-toe with Mastin over his bad self-metaing logical fallacies.

Of course, if Mastin is scum, his strategy would be to try to smear as many of the powerhouse townies as he could. So that remains a strong possibility.

Oh, a role claim. I'll deal with that in a separate post.

[Kublai Khan]

I am an Emerald Roleblocker. I blocked Kublai Khan Night Zero, because he said he'd kill me if he got a killing role in the pre-game. Best random choice I could think of.

A vig, a serial killer, and two mafia factions. With one of their kills failing last night. Specifically, I think Khan submitted the kill, and when he failed, he panicked and claimed miller.

Let me get this straight: I joked about killing you in the pre-game thread (i.e. no roles yet), so you decide to roleblock me. When the day started, you saw two things: (1) that you weren't dead, and (2) that I was claiming miller.

So you leap to the conclusion that (A) I ended up with a killing role and (B) there should have been 4 kills. Since you're still alive then (C) you successfully blocked me from killing you. So (D) I panicked and (E) claimed miller as a result of panicking. Oh, and {after reading Mastin's 825} (F) I'm a newbscum idiot who thinks that I can ride a fakemiller claim to victory.

And ignored the much, much more probable scenario that there are 3 killing roles and you blocked a miller.

THAT is one of my main reasons for suspecting Khan, above all else.

So you admit that your whole case against me was based on having a faulty conclusion first, then smearing the facts to fit the conclusion.

Thank you for clearing me, Mastin. I was worried that fools actually believed you.

Welcome to Mastin's layer. He's a serial-killer-lyncher-jester-member-of-a-four-man-mason-

roleblocker

-tracker-watcher group.

I always have to do this absurd claim some time in a game. It's just too fun not to do.

Eh.. Sounds like your breadcrumbs were pretty damn broad at the beginning of the game (allowing for a variety of fakeclaims), then towards the middle of the game you got more specific. If it was the other way around, I'd be more likely to believe it.

Plus you breadcrumbed hard. Like a giddy scum wanting to get caught so that he can claim as soon as possible. Someone more town would make 1 breadcrumb early then never mention it again.

But because of the miller claim after I blocked him, I had serious doubts.

There's no denying that I am a Roleblocker, VP.
But you can't doubt that I did block Khan, because there's an overwhelming amount of evidence to prove this to be the case.

There's no evidence, Mastin. I can't confirm that I was blocked because I have no night action that can be blocked. The mod did not send me a notification saying that I was blocked. NOTHING CONFIRMS YOUR STORY.

I realize the bandwagon is dead, but Mastin still has a bunch to answer for and it would be super-fantastic if he posted in a manner that would make me want to actually read his reply. (i.e. short and to the point)

However I agree that MafiaMann's last 3 posts were extremely suspicious and that he needs to explain himself a bit more.

FOS: MafiaMann

[VP Baltar]

It doesn't seem to bother you that some people on the Mastin bandwagon have joined without giving reasons. FoS: VP

There comes a point in a mafia game where you just have to pick a target and get that target lynched. Sure, some people hopped on the Mastin wagon without stating reasons, but in fairness what else were they going to say really? I gave a wealth of good reasons for him needing to be dead. I don't think there was a lot more to add. I'm sure there were some scum jumping on that wagon, but that doesn't mean I should stop a lynch from going forward on a person I think is likely scum. The fact that we likely have multiple mafia factions in this game means that almost every wagon until closer to endgame is going to have have scum hopping on it. All I can do is try to get my targets lynched and pay attention to voting patterns for analysis later.

Do you want a PBPA VP? I'm getting the impression, that you don't want one. Are you scared that the PBPA will point out a lot about you.

The fact is that Mastin is behaving stupidly about this and that is why I keep ignoring his giant sized questions. If he has suspicions to bring then he can post them, he does not need my approval to do so. He is harping on this PBPA thing because he hopes it will make it look like I actually care if he does it or not, which I don't. Furthermore, this sprung from me asking what the points on JR were from multiple people and never receiving an answer. It doesn't require a PBPA at all. One only needs to link to some previous posts where the points against him are clearly stated.

To sit there and repititiously scream that I need to give him approval to make a case is dumb. Make your points or shut up, but either way I don't think there is a significant case to be made against me. My guess is that it will largely be comprised of him saying how I'm misrepping him and that I'm using some sort of hidden mind control to convince others that he is scum etc. etc. that he has stated very poorly numerous times in his other posts.

[ckool5000]

Hmmm... I'm not sure if I want to vote for Kublai, VP, or MafiaMann...

[curiouskarmadog]

Sorry Mastin, but you and vp are making this game a headache. Plus, to me, vp wins the debate.

unvote
vote: Mastin

unvote

I believe Mastin to some extent.

(P.S. I got back, and now it's late at night. I'll get some good sleep and see if I can re-read with a clear head.)

Hmmm... I'm not sure if I want to vote for Kublai, VP, or MafiaMann...

interesting how a claim and some "breadcrumbs" can stop a wagon. everyone was so hell bent on lynching mastin, but he says he is a RB (which i find is a easy mafia claim to claim)...also everyone seems to overlook the fact that he could have easily planned that claim well before the day started. Hell Kublai's interaction with him might have helped him craft that claim....not buying and I think the claim and his explanation of it is shaky at best....

what I do find more interesting...are how quickly people jump without any explanation, to the next new thing. Look at the above quoted...

ckool, something about your last 3 posts are bothering me...in a sentence or two, I want to hear why you are considering Kub, , VP, or MM....I also want to hear why you believe Mastin's claim and are completely not considering that it is a pre thought out fake claim.

that being said...the information pouring out of this bandwagon to the next is great and I think will be usefull.

[Lowell]

I'll bandwagon.

vote mafiamann

[curiouskarmadog]

lol, I can tell this is going to be a joyful game.

[Faraday]

I hate you all for your long posts

Well skimmed over them long posts, seriously headache worthy, with that amount in a row

But yeh, VP/Mastin exchange, I agree with some of what VP's saying, though I don't particularly know if they're all scum tells. The one Mstin scum game I've read, Lynch All Lurkers, Mastin seemed very hesitant to post.

Yes Mastin I'm using meta against you, or a limited meta , but it's based on the only time I've seen you as scum . However I don't get that impression here at all, and he seems...eager to fight off the case. Not a town tell , but still certaintly not scummy.
As for the claim, I believe it. Doesn't shed light on your alignment, as you said. However I find myself having no problem seeing you stay alive, as I do think you've got a good chance of being town.

As for that part of reason fgor suspecting KK, hmm, I guess I can see why might think that could a good reason, certaintly better than average.
However I find it quite unlikely he's going to claim miller because he's panicked and his kill failed. Doesn't seem very likely to me at all, seems more likely you rb'ed an actual miller.


My hayker vote seems to be doing nothing.
I'll have to re-read him, but since it doesn't seem a viable bandwagon it's not much use leaving my vote there.

MM wagon is not something I'd object to. I think I'd slightly prefer FA to get a dose of death, but am happy either way.

Either way this game is kinda dragging, sometimes you just have to say fuck it.

]b]Unvote Vote MafiaMann[/b]

[/mech]