Mafia 96 - Murder in Emerald City (Game Over!)

[MafiaMann]

I suggest we stop voting mastin for now this happened way to fast but I cant read mastins posts so if mastin could summarize something in a short post.

[iamausername]

-=Vote Count #20=-

Mastin (9) - Kublai Khan, VP Baltar, roflcopter, MafiaMann, Wickedestjr, Mufasa, Lowell, curiouskarmadog, ckool5000
Kublai Khan (3) - ZazieR, Empking's Alt, Namttam
VP Baltar (2) - Kise, Mastin
Hayker (1) - Faraday
ckool5000 (1) - fallen angel
Achilles (1) - SerialClergyman

Not Voting (4) - Achilles, dvdkid13, Redith, Hayker

11 to lynch.

[ZazieR]

Due to my own psychological beliefs (that any truly pro-town player won't have a sudden turnaround on opinions on any person, without the influence of power roles)

Should I show you some of my past games ?

The whole ckool-Hayker-FA-etc. interaction is worthy of looking at. I believe ckool is town (ckool comes off of the exchange looking like newbtown, but not scum), though. Hayker, not so positive on (Hayker is a large suspect of mine, in fact). Fallen Angel neither looks like town nor scum in that exchange, and Mafia comes out of it feeling just...wrong. (Call it gut if you will. It's grown on me. )

Are all these opinions regarding their interaction based upon gut?

Never. However, this has to be at least the fifth or so game where it has been suggested. One of the five, I was later lynched, but it was due to a, umm, different kind of policy lynch. (Role, not player)

Ok, this is what I was wondering about. Either you''re scum''s favorite policy lynch ever, or there were some of these started by town. So why do you think that Johnny is scum pushing for a policy lynch, and not town?
Also, which of the other players upon your wagon give you the impression that they are scum and why?

(Note: It might even take me more time as I have to do a chore soon which might take a while. So I''m not sure if I can get uptodate today.)

[ZazieR]

I suggest we stop voting mastin for now this happened way to fast but I cant read mastins posts so if mastin could summarize something in a short post.

Why are you asking if others could stop voting Mastin for now?

[Achilles]

A user asked for the people who hadn't posted much yet to post their opinion, so I figured the best way was to just comment on people who were already under suspicion. I can't think of other people beside the ones who currently have votes who stand out to me a suspicious, so I didn't comment on anyone else.

Wow, shocker. Talk aobut trying to fit in with the crowd.

Considering that was my first post in like 8 pages, I'm just posting my view, not trying to fit in.

At 311 I was just interested in showing that I wasn't inactive, so I addressed the immediate concerns that I saw. I don't see that as tunneling because I was just posting my thoughts on accusations that others have made.

Unrelated, but if JR is getting replaced, how is the new guy supposed to deal with the suspicion that JR has received. In essence, my question is, are our previous reads on JR valid even though JR is getting replaced for a new guy?

Every time Achilles pops up I twitch like I'm Michael J Fox. Just being interested in showing you're not inactive is utterly unhelpful. Just because JR is getting replaced certainly does NOT waive him of all suspicion thus far attributed. Why on earth would anyone suggest that? Scummmmmmy

I didn't suggest that we waive off all suspicion off of him - don't exaggerate my posts. This is the 2nd game I've ever joined on MafiaScum and I have not been in a position where someone under heavy suspicion was asking for a replacement, so I was unsure about what to think. Obviously it's not fair to blame the new guy for JR's actions, but I realized that points against JR would still be valid. It was just a question.

- Easy targets
- Preoccupation with town approval
- Zero personal scumhunting, lots of piggybacking
- Attempting to completely dismiss case against JR due to him being replaced.

Easy targets? My first thoughts were on the current votees because I just wanted to get my thoughts out there. My other posts were truly what I felt from what I read - not just trying to get someone lynched. You'll notice that I haven't voted yet. That's because I wasn't interested in starting a bandwagon against someone before giving them a chance to write an adequate defense.

I don't see your point about town approval. Every player in the game seeks the approval of the town to support them and hunt scum. Scum want town approval so they can bandwagon or get rid of townies easily and keep themselves out of suspicion. If I wanted town approval I would be hopping on bandwagons and trying to get people lynched.

I apologize for the scumhunting part. I'm about to post that right now. Like I said, it's a really big game and I was overwhelmed, but I'm set now.

I didn't "attempt to completely dismiss him". I simply asked a question.

2) Achilles wins scummiest and my vote.

unvote if necessary, vote: Achilles

I'd urge you all to read him in iso, it's not a pretty sight.

Your main argument against me is that I'm just trying to bandwagon with someone without post my own analysis or asking questions. While I understand your perspective, my reason for doing so is that this is my 1st large game and I'm pretty overwhelmed, especially with the ridiculous amounts of text in the thread.

I understand, however, that the best way to defend myself is to provide my own analysis and start scumhunting, and that is what I'm going to write in my next post. I've just always been behind in the thread so I was pretty unsure, especially with all this reading, but I'm up to date now, so I can actually offer my insight.

[ZazieR]

Mod: It is with great regret that I request to have a replacement chosen for me in this game. Unforseen real life circumstances preclude me from continuing.

Unforseen my @*censored* (Johnny might have true real-life difficulties [not any sort of a tell; we all have issues]; I'm commenting on the actual wording). Every time I've seen a player word their replacement request in this way, they've been scum. <_<

Yeah, please do so. This seems a really big stretch to me.

[ZazieR]

Mod: It is with great regret that I request to have a replacement chosen for me in this game. Unforseen real life circumstances preclude me from continuing.

Unforseen my @*censored* (Johnny might have true real-life difficulties [not any sort of a tell; we all have issues]; I'm commenting on the actual wording). Every time I've seen a player word their replacement request in this way, they've been scum. <_<

(Want examples?)

Yeah, please do so. This seems a really big stretch to me.

Forgot to add the last sentence at which my comment was aimed

[ZazieR]

Actually, I agree with post 670, except for the following:

I see severe buddying to Kublai Khan from Lowell thusfar.
Anyone else?

2: You referred to the town in the third person. Scumslip?

[Achilles]

I think MafiaMann is scummy. Just look at his post history from 71-75 and it is full of pretty contradictory statements.

Vp brings off a lot of good points against mastin that several people were just ignoring because its his play style im glad some took the time to look but if he is like that always its a null tell.

Here he agrees with VP's statement that people shouldn't just brush it off as his playstyle, but then goes on to say that if Mastin is always like that, then it is a null tell. Why agree with VP when you suggest the exact opposite of what he's suggesting?

Mastin really needs to stop with the ridiculous posts i didnt even read all of his last two and its getting to the point that its causing so many more problems than any benefit we can possibly be getting from them.

Why are you playing on a text-based board if you don't want to read? If anything, skim over them instead of analyzing every phrase, but don't just blatantly ignore it.

[quote="MafiaMann @ 75]
I suggest we stop voting mastin for now this happened way to fast but I cant read mastins posts so if mastin could summarize something in a short post. [/quote]

Same thing here. You're just basically bandwagoning on Mastin without even reading what he has to say. Furthermore, VP has made some Mastin-length posts. You can read those but not Mastin's?


Mastin does not come off as scum to me. I believe his argument about KK forgetting the "emerald" part is misdirected. Here's how I saw it. A townie would likely consider the Emerald part as just flavor and simply post miller, which is his/her role. "Emerald Miller" would seem redundant. A scum, on the other hand, would try to add validity to his claim by adding on the emerald part to miller, to make it seem more valid. It was also said that scum rarely claim miller because miller is usually vig killed. If the miller is indeed vig killed, then why should we spend a day vote on KK when all we really have to go off of is that he didn't write emerald and the death/normal situation.

Mastin's posts, however, are a real trek to go through. I don't believe his posts are scumtells, especially after I read some of his other games, but they make it very difficult for people to catch up to the thread or just follow the train of that. It might not be intended as anti-town, but it certainly comes off like that because that's just how he plays. That's the main reason I see for voting him off.

Speaking of KK, he also received accusations of why he wasn't aware of what kind of miller he was. I didn't find too much substance in these accusations, but I was interested in his response. People suggested KK to PM the mod and confirm what kind of username was here, and unless I overlooked it, I waited forever for the response. I recollect KK telling that the mod just PM'd him his role back, so KK figured he was an ordinary miller. What I was wondering is why it took so long to post this - why didn't you write this when you first got a response?

ZazieR has been on KK's case throughout the thread, and I don't think there was enough against KK to truly justify that. I was suspicious of KK as well, but not enough to advocate a day 1 lynch, especially if vig killed is going to be a possibility. I just don't find substance in her reasons against KK, as elaborated above.

SerialClergyman seems pro town to me. He has made valid accusations with a logical basis behind them, and I have not seen anything really scummy from him.

That's all for now. Going to post more later, but I'm out to lunch atm.

[Mastin]

Oh, man, VP. You're going to make me look bad in my other games; I'm just having far too much fun with you.

(I am like Kempachi--I love the thrill of battle, the thrill of a fight. You are giving me one of the best fights I've had in rather some time. An excuse for me to post walls of text.)

I mean, do I even really have to point out how much of a misrep of my position on the Khan situation.

Yes, you do.
Because I'm not really seeing it.
I see, a potentially huge scumslip: You admitting that Khan is very possible scum, yet are defending him heavily as not.

Because I try to be a reasonable person an mention the remote possibility that Khan could be scum, Mastin tries to twist my words into really saying that I DO think he is scum.

You said that he wasn't obvious scum.
And that implies to me that you think he could be very likely scum.

Which is a scumslip, considering how much you've defended Khan.

This is typical scum semantics arguments and misrep.

Or, you just truly having slipped, and me having called you out on it.

Says he can't provide suspicions on me because he'd have to do a PBPA,

Not SUSPICIONS--

SUMMARY OF SUSPICIONS.

THERE IS A

HUGE

DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE TWO!

and yet he has been able to state his suspicions on many other players in this game without doing an entire PBPA.

Yea. Suspicions.
Not summary of suspicions.
You conveniently left out key words which completely changed the meaning, VP.

I've been noticing this a LOT coming from you. This is further proof that you are scum, because it simply isn't humanly possible to miss THAT many key phrases in my posts, that many crucial details left out.

Also, why can't he state general things (ie lurker, misreps often, OMGUS, etc.etc.) without doing a PBPA?

Because that's the same as a summary, and can be shot down just as easily.

The answer is that he doesn't have a strong case and would rather not going down the alley of making weak accusations.

I ASKED you if you wanted me to do that PBPA on you.

POSTS LATER, you

STILL have *not* answered this question

!

Just a simple yes, or no.
That's all I ask for.
Do you want me to do a PBPA on you and Johnny, or not?

Notice how he first tries to discredit this point as "old news".

Discredit? I was pointing out how rofl had said the exact same thing earlier.

What's wrong with that?
It's true.
What you said wasn't new. Rofl had said it earlier.

Then rather than answer my question he states why he thinks Khan is scum. It's a valid point and he can't refute it, so he deflects back to Khan.

Of course I can't refute it, because I believe it to be true. Khan needs to die. And I don't think it needs to be today. I stated why I think he's scum, which is an answer to the question, indirectly, in that I think he would not make it to lylo, but that he might do the move as scum, not knowing the consequences of the claim.

Not only that, but he then accepts that I am correct in the next quote:

Of course. Khan will die. It's as simple as that. I think he's scum, who will die, and that's what I had been explaining.

He accepts that he is likely to be killed at night, but says this proves why Khan is scum and we should waste a lynch on him.

Blatant twist of my words.

I didn't say he was likely to be killed at night. I said that, because of at least three killing factions, plus the lynch during the day, it was a tactical error.
NOWHERE did I say that we should lynch him.

29)He claims that the words JR used in his replacement request are scummy, which is utterly ridiculous WIFOM. How could anyone have any possible legitimate insight into this?

Let's look at a few of the scum replacements I've seen throughout my time...

Look at the Newbish Mastin and Laugh.

I was being fairly apologetic, swearing at how real life issues had consumed me, and that I couldn't play, regretting the choice, yet having to do it. (Note how I was also under pressure a good deal.)

Same deal here, with Ult wanting to be replaced, apologizing for no longer having the time to play. (Ult was under a good deal of pressure, mind you)

Apologizing. Real life issues, under pressure.

See the pattern in there?

More refusal to state any actual points against me. see above.

Not a refusal to state any points against you.
A refusal to SUMMARIZE the points against you.

They are NOT the same thing. I have been accusing you all game. I haven't provided a single good, solid summary this game.

Ridiculous inflation of self-importance.

No, just simple fact. It regards that pro-town/pro-scum difference in reactions when dealing with my play early-on in the RVS, amongst others.

Again trying to say that you if you don't agree with him and his method you are likely scum.

SC disagrees with me. I'm not labeling SC as scum, now, am I?

It's not agreeing/disagreeing with me.
It's the WAY they do it that's important.
There's a pro-town way.
And there's a pro-scum way.
You are the latter.

I can go into details at any time if I so wish to (I can state this tell of mine from memory.), but again, stating it would allow scumbags like you to change it if you don't understand the tell. Which, obviously, you don't.
Yay, for once, score one for the scum not doing their research!

Threats instead of scumhunting.

I was pointing out a simple fact, VP:

You were telling me to start focusing, stop the fluff, do more serious scum hunting.
I pointed out how, if I were to do that, YOU would be the target. That you were asking for your grave, essentially, and that it seemed scummy to me.

I've pointed this out already. He says referring to the "the town" is a scumtell, while referring to "the town".

Because to not do so when referring to your wording would change the meaning of the sentence. I've explained this already.

Also, how exactly does one not refer to the town in the third person?

The rest of the town-->Not third person.

It's a collective group, and is therefore always third person.

Only to those not part of it.
Those part of it will use first person.
We, the town,
The rest of the town,
etc.

Those not will use third person:
The town.

Misrep, mudslinging and generally bad logic all in one!

1: Explain how it is a misrep.

2: Explain how I was "mudslinging", because all I see is a legit tell which I have always used.

3: IF it were bad logic, as you claim, face it: You're talking to me. I have a wiki page on my tells (which needs updating, admittedly). Read over them and see if you think they're good, solid logical tells. I dare you to answer yes to all four currently up there.

Tries to frighten the town with my meta and because I got a Scummy nomination.

The fact that you're such a darn good player as scum makes you a danger, one who needs to have a very close eye kept on by the rest of the town, if not a vote for all the scummy things I've pointed out coming from you.

Bringing this up isn't even valid as a point against me because he claims that I always look pro-town.

It IS a point against you, because it shows why you're a dangerous player.

It's all psychological games that just happen to work in his favor.

It's me just stating a simple fact.

35)He asks for links to my town games. I tell him they are readily available in my wiki. His reply?

Yea. You failed to give the links, pointing towards your wiki. I find it to be a slight scum tell to not do the work yourself and just post the links.

So, what?

So I'm scummy because I directed you to the exact place where you can find all of my town games rather than choosing which ones reflect best on me and posting them in the thread. This is the height of idiocy.

If you gave all of the town links, then a quick look at your wiki would confirm you gave all of your town links. That's why it's pro-town to post them. Because it can verify your honesty and effort.

Again we have an incident where Mastin is calling someone scummy because they didn't do something the way he would.

Checking the last page when you have many others to catch up on is scummy.

It shows worry at the current state of the game:
A pro-town player shouldn't be worried about being the leading bandwagon, for example. You made it a point to point this out, and showed you had read the last page. Which is scummy, because it shows fear of being the top-wagon.

Not only is this not a scumtell in any, way, shape or form, but it is an illogical point coming from a player who claims to be so "unique" and does things differently from everybody else.

I'm a unique player in many ways, but that doesn't change the fact that I do SOME things the "normal logical" way.
This is amongst them.

Give him an inch and he takes a mile.

Nice metaphor.
(This didn't seem like an accusation to me.)

I try to cut him some slack and say that some , which does not necessarily mean many, of his points are good and he tries to turn this to say that I'm claiming scum.

When MOST of my points are directed at you, even SOME would be admitting at least SOME of my points against you are legit, as in, you're admitting to being scum.

Simple logic, really.

The heigh of idiocy continues to rise.

I should check how many times you've used this word in this post and point out the times where I forgot to, how this is a personal attack against me. Too lazy, but I'll say this:
Every time you continue to call me an idiot, it's a personal attack against me.

Additionally, as I already pointed out, he is saying that most of his scumhunting has been on me, which is completely not true considering I replaced 25 pages into this game.

It was on your predecessor, and by extent, you. Later on, it was mostly you as well.

Hence, most of the scum hunting from me has been on you, VP.

Simple, basic, elementary logic, really.

You don't have to be a genius to figure out why this is a lie.

And you don't have to be a genius to figure out why you're ignoring the fact that you just didn't come into the game with a completely new role--you inherited the role of another player, one who I had been attacking a great deal recently.

Admits to, and then excuses his fluff. Then threatens me.

1: So, what? Fluff's fluff. I admit that. It's not like it's a scum tell to have the level of fluff I do.

2: I did NOT threaten you. I was making an ACCUSATION against you, that you were "afraid to see my scum hunting", essentially. That you were afraid to see my efforts to catch scum, in my attacks against Johnny, your predecessor, and later, you.

More threats, very little scumhunting.

No threats, more accusations against you.
I was stating that, because my primary suspect was you, an increase in scum hunting would further nail you as scum.
And I was saying that you wanting me to scum hunt more was a possible scum slip.
("Really, VP, you're making it sound like you WANT me to attack you harder"-->You are making it sound like you are scum, further.)

This basically sums it up.

No, it does not.

Rather than actually respond to what I'm saying or have a logical discussion he acts bullheaded about it.

The thing is,

I HAVE RESPONDED TO THIS POINT COUNTLESS TIMES.
I can't count the hundreds of times that I've explained to people in dozens of games why long posts can be incredibly pro-town to do. I should track them down, because I've said it in almost all of my games. I'm tired of saying it all the time, explaining why my style has a pro-town side no matter how much you want to make it anti-town to pro-scum.

This isn't necessarily scummy in and of itself, but continuing to spam the thread when asked many times to stop and given reasons why should stop, is definitely scummy.

1: I wasn't spamming the thread.

2: You said I was spamming. Not why I should stop spamming.

Fails to answer my question other than stating he's right and I'm wrong.

Your question was how your reactions were not pro-town.

That was just ASKING me how to CHANGE your reactions so that they COULD be pro-town. Or perhaps your buddies if not you. I can cite the reasoning from memory. Always have, and always will, in fact. Just not now, because you could easily change it if I told you, making the action of telling you to be anti-town.

Or there were no other points and you're stretching to make your arguments seem more valid than they really are.

Explain to me how "And so on"-->An attempt to make the argument more valid.

'Cause I really fail to see how.

Repetition of question I already answered, which he even replies to in post 708. ie, actively lurking and not really scumhunting.

1: I was asking again, because I had shot down your points about the difference, and was asking again, how--without the points I shot down--we are different, aside from her posts being shorter and mine longer.

2: Are you accusing me of actively lurking?

3: And not scum hunting?

4: Because this would contradict with your assertion that some of my scum hunting has been legit.

43) repeats a shitload of points he already made to pad out his posts.

If I don't get my point across,
I state my point again until the message gets across.

Simple as that, really.
If people ignore what I say...
Then I have no choice but to say it again in order to make the message clear. Make a larger font, whatever. Something has to be done to get the message across.

Also, repeating yourself is pro-town, because if in your repetitions, there are no inconsistencies, you are showing consistency, which is pro-town.

repeating things also helps to psychologically reinforce them in the minds of other players as being true.

Thing is, if they don't pay attention, then I'm not reinforcing anything. I'm trying to just convey the message across to them for the first time.

Again, the world has to revolve around Mastin.

This was not relevant to the quote you gave at all.

I give a valid reason why he should trim his posts down (it makes it hard to review the game later) and his response is 'not my problem'.

I also gave reasons why it would be possible to read my posts. (See: Do it the old fashioned way, don't do Iso, Iso-reads on any player are near-impossible in later days, etc.) And explained why it would be their fault for not looking at my posts, because I make it extremely easy to follow along and also make my opinions rather clear throughout the days.

This is jibberish.

Not really. Longer posts give me the freedom to do whatever the heck I want.
Where's the gibberish in a fact?

I'm going to stop here.

If you wanted a truly valid case, you shouldn't.

These are 45 things I see wrong with Mastin

Wrong?
Perhaps to a normal player.
Scummy?
Possible.

But do you see it as 45 things that make me supposedly scum?
Doesn't sound like it from your wording.

and this only in his last two posts.

Yea, well, I could say the same about you. Your posts have been FILLED with scum tells for me to point out, and I've done exactly that.

Some of the points are repetitions on similar themes in his play,

Which automatically should make it clear that they're null tells.

but it's all scummy behavior.

It's mostly a load of null tells and a load of BS.

I really don't see how anyone could possibly be seeing him as pro-town.

You really haven't read up on my meta, have you, VP?
I mean, my true games.
Not like that joke of an ongoing game.

If anyone needs further elaboration, I'll continue, but for crying out loud just look at how many scummy actions he is trying to get by with.

1: Please do.

2: I just shot down these supposedly scummy actions.

3: You're one to talk--there are loads of scum tells from you, in that post ALONE.

Points I think are irrelevent due to Mastin's meta:
7, 10, 14, 15, 17, 19, 35, 36, 39, 43, 44

Points I think are active misreps/scummy themselves:
8 - Even if no-one else had accused you of being scum, it still doesn't make his argument invalid, and in fact plenty of people have done so via their votes.
13 - You accuse Mastin of going with the flow and not drawing unnecessary attention? Sorry, what? His tunneling is a minor mistake that could be indicative of scummyness, your accusation reeks of a misrep.
26 - I agree with Mastin. Your post made it look very much like you thought KK was scum but had some doubts. It looked like fence sitting, certianly not like you believe the miller claim and are against a KK lynch.

Heh. I don't even need to check the actual points to know that SC is speaking the truth on this matter.

Mastin's complete disregard for everyone's preferred method of reading the game is irritating, and his posts spam the forum, make it hard to catch up and hard to play.

Only if you try to read it line by line. There are ways to trim it down a bit. Ignore whatever I'm quoting, skim and read areas that catch your interest, etc. It's not the best solution, but it is the easiest pro-town solution there is. (The best solution and hardest pro-town solution being to read the whole thing.)

However, although it might be annoying, or even if it creates favourable conditions for scum, that DOES NOT make him scum THIS game.

Agreed. Like I said, most of my actions are null tells. The actions might appear anti-town; it doesn't change how they're null tells and I'd do them regardless of alignment.

He posts these long posts every game and has an arm's length of games to prove it.

Well...not EVERY game. VP's meta of me comes from an ongoing game where I did not, actually, have long posts. It was because I was bored. *shrugs*

This includes things like failure to summarise, being pedantic, having illogical scumtells and various other issues.

This stuff, I do every game, although I word it in different, more positive ways.

b) The sheer amount of his postings mean that there are always going to be things that come off poorly. He may occasionally make a bad argument or attack, but these weak slips are much less significant than with players who post less because of the possibility of noise over signal. If I post 100 words in my game and have 3 weak scumtells, that's significant. If I post 100,000 and have 3 weak scumtells, that's insignificant.

c) Mastin is scumhunting. Whether you feel he's concentrating on the right people or not, he's actively combing through the thread looking for scummy behaviour. He has made points about a number of different people and is clear about where his opinions lie. He is certainly not going with the easy wagons and trying to fly under the radar, like you say at one point, he's put himself and his theories at the forefront of discussion. These are people you do not lynch on D1, imo.

Yea. Not going to unnecessarily reply to these individually, because I agree with both of these paragraphs entirely.
Face it, VP.
I've NEVER lived to the endgame of a game.
I've made it to lylo once,
But never an endgame.

d) There are REALLY REALLY scummy alternatives.

I agree, that many individuals do look rather scummy, however, VP's, followed by Khan's, and at third comes Lowell's scumminess seems to be the greatest of them to me. Which is why VP has my vote.

Part of why I suspect OMGUS/personal reasons for your recent case against Mastin is that you dropped that case like it was hot.

Yea. He is OMGUS'ing me. He just doesn't want to admit it.

---

FINALLY finished Page 30. I think I've proved well and good that VP is lying through his teeth in an effort to get me lynched. This has been fun; will the fun continue on page 31?

---
Blasted internet failures. I tried posting this, but my internet failed. <_<

Oh, well. It can always wait until my internet works again. Anyway, copied this into Microsoft Word and saving it for tomorrow. You’d be interested to know that the actual post was exactly nine pages long. The hr took up the last lines there; the wrap-up started page ten.

That’s a true post from me. My definition of fun.

[VP Baltar]

Like I said, most of my actions are null tells.

My actions are always pro-town in nature.

Also, repeating yourself is pro-town, because if in your repetitions, there are no inconsistencies, you are showing consistency, which is pro-town.

Inconsistency, ahoy! LAL! More Mastin votes, plz!

[Namttam]

Mastin could be scum. Some of your points do have merit,i.e. his parsing has allowed him make some things appear scummier than they were. However, having been in the game for a short while, you are making yourself guilty of misrepping just as you accused him of doing(see post 749 before you deny it). More over, your appeal to other players dislike of mastin's post style is a incredibly suspicious play. You are using it to further your desire to get him lynched because your case is not as strong as you would like. I would vote for you before I vote for Mastin, however I'm leaving my vote on KK because I believe my logic is solid.

In other words, you think the people voting for Mastin are doing it mostly because his posts are annoying? Possibly, but what's wrong with the points against him that have already been provided?

Yes. I believe Mastin has done more than an adequate job of countering most of those points which would actual make me vote for him. I believe their are better lynch targets than him.

I don't focus on people unless I find them at least suspicious. I voted for him to apply more pressure to him and get him to talk more because I thought he might be scum. With more information I could get a better reading on him and hopefully find out if he was scum. Vp has been plenty active and is providing lots of information so I switched over to the person I find 100% scum.

If you thought Khan was 100% scum, then why weren't you voting him before?

Check the time stamps before you ask a question like this please. If you'll notice, my vote on KK comes in my first post following the exchange which convinced me he was scum. KK's post is 561 on page 22 and my vote is post 638 on page 26. You can check my posts in iso to confirm that was my first post since his.

Last post I promise. That is already four people responding to VP's push on Mastin. Three of which did not post any reasons,(MM kinda did but seemed to imply he was voting for his post style). If anyone is trying to take advantage of sheep it is VP. Encouraging voting

without reasons

encourages play which provides little information, and is definitely not a town move.

How has VP not given reasons? I think you missed post # 746.

Ummm, not at all what I meant. I was referring to the end of post #712.

Could the following people please explain whether or not you think Mastin is town based on the above points (not necessary if you simply vote)

The little part at the end is encouraging people to vote without giving reasons, simply asking them to join the Mastin wagon. I was pointing out that players were actually heeding said call and voting without giving reason which was a direct result of what VP said.

[Mastin]

I simply can't imagine a claimed miller reaching lylo. He painted a big target on his back and I'm happy to let it be sorted out at night. Wasting a lynch on someone who is a dead man walking is a bad idea when we have scum to catch. If he'd claimed at L-1 it might be different, or claimed in D2 it might be different. As it is, it's the correct play to make for a mason, so I don't see a need to further push it.

You made a bad typo, SC: Khan isn't a mason.
More seriously, I agree with this. If he is a miller, he claimed at the correct time. And I don't want him to be lynched today.

I DO, however, want him dead.

Eh... I'm not too sure about this point, because if we already knew that Khan was a miller, than what's the problem with asking for some flavor?

My thoughts on the matter exactly. There's no problem with asking someone who already claimed for more favor to test their claim.

Does Mastin usually do this?

Insist my actions are always pro-town?
Yea. They're also anti-town as well. (See: Coin.)

Insist that they're a sign of alignment? If you consider insisting they're null tells to qualify, then, yes, I do do this all the time.

Pressure. He wanted answers; with Johnny gone, none could be given. It's a common tactic. Pressure votes. Quite personally, I hate 'em with a passion, but they're neither a scum tell nor a town tell.

I would like Mastin to explain himself;

Unvote
Vote: Mastin

...Like that.
Not a sign of alignment, but a true pain.
Happy, Wicked? I have explained myself rather well and proven why VP is lying, manipulative scum.

I feel certain enough to lynch him, and that is all that really matters.

Answer the darn question:
How certain are you that I am scum, VP?
None of this "certain enough to lynch" junk. A percent will do. I gave you the percentage when you asked me to about how certain I was about my theory.
Will you return the favor?

but he also has genuinely scummy behavior that I think people are ignoring because "he's Mastin".

And I shot down every one of your 45 points last night that said I was scummy.
You didn't even use the word, "scum".
You used "scummy".

That does NOT sound like a pro-town player's view on another.

Keep in mind that not everything in my post above was intended to be "scumtells" per se, but rather to show the bad logic and general uselessness that is going on in his posts.

If they're not scum tells, then you don't mention them in a case against me to make me look as scummy as possible.

Things like attacking Mufasa over saying the word "men" is not actually scumhunting, yet he is trying to pass it off as such.

I've asked, dozens of times. And have not once received an answer:

Explain to me how pointing out a possible scumslip is

NOT

scumhunting, VP!

This is one of my main issues.

One of my main issues with you is you continually pushing only part of the story. Down-right manipulating my words, ignoring sentences, twisting my sentences to have different meanings, etc.

And your main issue is me pushing bad logic, when I use this kind of logic in every one of my games.

Yea...of the two main issues, I definitely think mine is stronger than yours.

The problem, for me, is that his scum hunting is not genuine. He's trying to make mountains out of molehills or less. These are things scum do.

Not me, VP.
My scum hunting is ALWAYS legitimate. Regardless of alignment, I'd always scum hunt. Look at this game, VP. We can be almost dead-certain there are two scum factions; EVEN IF I WERE SCUM, I would still be scum hunting the other faction.

My logic is mine, and I am free to use it however I wish. My MITs are a good example of what logic I use, often. Heck, you can see that I FoS'd Zazie and Kise for being replacements during night zero in this game alone. (Sure, that was the RVS, but still, that's the kind of logic that I have--in the past--used seriously. That particular tell is more of a joke than serious now, but I still use it every game I can.)

I have seen Achilles and I agree that he is very scummy.

And I have seen Achilles post what seemed to be very good points in at least one of his posts, so, well, I disagree.

I'm pretty sure he was on my stated list of people who "need to catch a case of dead".

Quote, please. I do not recall hearing you say this.

And I do think the case on MafiaMann is quite convincing, but I think the one against Mastin is just as convincing. I pointed out 45 things I saw wrong in only two posts from him, and I didn't even finish reading them because I was tried of typing that post.

The thing is, you dropped the Mafia case, which was strong and had good reasoning...and went after me, with far weaker reasoning, twisting of my words, leaving out key phrases, general manipulation, and blatant hypocrisy on several matters.
And I just blew all 45 points of yours full of holes, anyway. Provided clear reasoning to prove you wrong, supported it with my meta, and showed you just how wrong you are about me, VP.

His pursuit of the KK lynch does not seem genuine like it does with Zazie, and his pursuit of my lynch reeks of OMGUS.

What I read: He sees my attacks as not legit, but sees Zazie's attacks as legit, meaning that she's genuinely scum hunting, which by extent leads to Zazie being right about Khan, which by extent means that VP has slipped again and admitted that Khan's scum.
Yay for scumslips!

And, yea...I have shown why my attacks against VP are not OMGUS. He had my vote before he replaced in. I thought Johnny was scum, and gave reasoning why. I disliked VP's first content post; it was mostly personally attacking me for my normal playstyle. His posts from then-on became increasingly scummy, and eventually, he ended up--when he realized I would not stop--having no choice but to OMGUS me.

For some reason, I severely doubt it.

And I do not deny your reasoning, rofl.

Khan isn't the best lynch today.
He IS very likely scum (at least 75% likelihood), but he won't be the lynch today, because practically the only worse course of action would be to lynch a claimed cop day one.

Mastin is accusing people for terrible reasons, so apart from the spam, part of the rest is just crap. He's also pointing out terrible contradictions.

Except, I have explained my actions.
My accusations are scum hunting.
It doesn't matter how weak, or how unusual, the reasoning is:

It. Is. Still. Scum-hunting.
No matter how much you want to bash it as not. It's pointing out possible scum-slips.

Are you saying that since he posts so much, then he is likely to say something scummy once in a while?

Who doesn't?
SC was saying that the amount of scummy stuff I have said, in comparison to the total amount of what I have said, is insignificant, essentially.

Meaning that there would be far better lynches. (Like VP.)

If there really is more than one scum group and Mastin is a part of one of them, then who cares if he is scumhunting or not, because he could be trying to get rid of the other scum group.

The fact is, Wicked, that scum hunting is scum hunting, no matter what way you look at it.
I have been scum hunting ever since we left the RVS. And done it well, nailed VP, nailed Khan, nailed Lowell, as scum together, with possible scum as well, likely belonging to the other faction (Mafia, FA, those who I point out possible scumslips from, etc. mostly qualify under this category).

Remember me pointing out possible slips from this player?
Yea, it's votes such as these that make them slightly more likely to be true.

However, having been in the game for a short while, you are making yourself guilty of misrepping just as you accused him of doing(see post 749 before you deny it).

Which is, blatantly hypocritical, of course. He also twisted my words, and left out key phrases in my sentences to strengthen his case against me, where if he had left those words in, he would have had a far weaker attack against me.

More over, your appeal to other players dislike of mastin's post style is a incredibly suspicious play.

And is doing the same strong-armed tactics he accuses me of as well.
("Voting Mastin is pro-town.")

You are using it to further your desire to get him lynched because your case is not as strong as you would like. I would vote for you before I vote for Mastin, however I'm leaving my vote on KK because I believe my logic is solid.

And for reasoning such as this, good, solid, and pro-town,
Nat's pro-town. He hits the mark with his points, there, because they're all true.

That is already four people responding to VP's push on Mastin.

Yea. And like I said, we have two scum factions.
VP, Khan, and Lowell all seem to fit rather nicely as one.
The others on my lynch (Mafia, Mufasa. Wicked's vote was for pressure, so if he unvotes after hearing my counter-argument, then he's excused.) seem to fit nicely as the other.

Three of which did not post any reasons,(MM kinda did but seemed to imply he was voting for his post style).

Aye. And why do you think they have my suspicion?
(Hint: Because their votes seem to reek of bandwagoning.)

If anyone is trying to take advantage of sheep it is VP.

And I agree. The proof is in the bandwagon, without waiting for my counter-argument.

Anyone who could read VP's case against me can read my counter-attack as well.

@Mastin: Re: French
I speak French. I can verify that the French abbreviate "Monsieur" (pronounced "Messieu") as M. Link

Okay, point dropped, then.

1: *facepalm* No True Scotsman fallacy.

No True Scotsman--a fallacy involving the fact that no player who is XX (fill in XX with role, status [like IC], or alignment).

What I said: Rolefishing applies, even to third-party roles.

The two are not the same, Khan, and I don't see how you can think that what I said was a No True Scotsman fallacy.

2: I said I was a miller. You guys were the ones fishing for more information and blew every perceived inconsistency out of proportion.

I've explained this in detail already responding to VP.
See the contradiction between knowing your role, and having confusion over it.

3: C'mon! Be vaguer! You can do it! Say I smell like scum! Invoke gut!

Khan, I've explained your inconsistencies throughout the thread. I don't need to do it again every post.
Do you WANT me to repeat myself every post?
ME to repeat MY points, in MY posts?
Answer: No. That'd make my posts unnecessarily long.

I'm willing to do a PBPA against you, if you so wish me to, but not a summary of the points.

It's the same deal with VP.

Ask me to do a PBPA, I'll do it.
Ask me to summarize the points against you, I'll ask you if you want a PBPA and explain why I refuse to give a summary.

4: Don't answer for ckool5000. I have a right to know who is talking shit about me.

Well, if you think about it, 742 shows a very clear difference between you pre-claim and post-claim. It is very likely talking about not freaking out after having people have confirmed guilties on them.

5: There's a major problem with your comparison, Mastin. It's entirely possible for there to be both MAFIA ROLEBLOCKERS and TOWN ROLEBLOCKERS. That's a distinction that DOESN'T EXIST with the role of Miller (Note: you've already admitted this).

The thing is, Khan, I've explained this in great detail:

Mafia don't have to claim to be the town equivalent of what their actual role is. They can claim to be a miller when they are, in fact, a goon, for example.
(See: my latest proof of why Emerald is not flavor.)

6: No smiley face. Is this comment serious? Do you really think SKs work that way?

Well, yea. Serial killers aren't members of the mafia; I always like to think of them as immune to cop investigations.
So?

7: Like what?

Already outlined.

8: That is some pretty insulting WIFOM reasoning. Also, see #5. Miller isn't a role that has multiple possible alignments. Miller only has ONE potential alignment. Quit relying on different roles (with different rules) to make your point.

1: No wifom. Just psychology.

2: I've explained this, MANY TIMES, Khan. There IS such a thing as fakeclaiming, claiming a role that you are not. Claiming to be a Miller as a Goon, for example, would be no different than claiming to be a Doctor as a M. Roleblocker in Newbie Games.

The examples I was giving were just that--examples. I showed you a M. Roleblocker claiming to be a roleblocker (possible, very probable, actually),

And also gave an example of another member of the Mafia (in my most recent example, I said Goon, for the sake of speculation), who claims Miller, but makes the exact same mistake as the M. Roleblocker.

It's not that hard to understand, Khan.

9: Sure, why not. Nothing says "Pro-Town" like massive uncorroborated self-metaing circular arguments that are steeped heavily in forced denial.

And we have another one.
VP was pushing this same argument:

Saying that I was saying Pro-Town.

When, in fact, I was saying Null.

You're like the Baghdad Bob of this game. "The scumminess of my play has been vastly overreported! Kublai Khan will be surrendering to my mighty arguments any moment now!"

Made me laugh, although the accusation is false. (I'm stating nothing but fact. Anyone who is arguing with me on points such as my meta are being illogical and unreasonable, because I've given clear examples to support my supposedly scummy play as being my playstyle, a null tell.)

10: Gosh, It's totally inconceivable for a player to commit scum-tells intentionally in other games as town so that they can play more unnoticed as scum.

This is an accusation of me Pseudo-Metagaming, Khan.

Really...do you think I was setting myself up in those games to play scummily, just so that I could eventually do the same thing as scum to get away with it?


Occam's Razor (or however that's spelled), Khan.
Simplest explanation applies.
The simplest explanation to my actions is that they are null, like I claim.

11: Threatening the town. With the very same post style you claim is benign.

There is no threat in a fact.

How many times must I state this for the message to get across?
Want it in size fifteen/seventeen to get the message?

Really. My actions are null tells.

Second, how do you figure that Mastin's repeated insistence of how pro-town (or null) he is not to be a scum-tell?

Because I'm insisting on facts. I even GIVE links to SUPPORT my arguments and describe that.

You, however, are insisting on false arguments, which have no foundation in fact, are speculation, and mindlessly attacking my playstyle.

@VP Baltar (746): Wow. You just made my rebuttal seem paltry in comparison.

Yea. He also used a bunch of hypocritical logic, misrepped me, twisted my words, and ignored key parts of my posts. (Like ASKING him if he wanted a PBPA for the accusations. He flat-out said that I was refusing to give a summary, which isn't true--I was giving him reasons for not posting a summary, and that I'd give the better choice: A PBPA, if he so requested it.)

You mean the fact that he claimed Emerald miller and then some players badgered him into asking the mod for more specifics?

Miller, and then--after I called him out for it--Emerald Miller, actually.

However, my argument is that no one outside of Mastin has found ME scummy but has rather carried over suspicions from JR.

You share the same role as JR.
Suspicions from JR are suspicions on you, VP, so, yes. People HAVE suspected you.

Furthermore, I say that Mastin is making "empty threats" of long posts against me, which is true.

There is no threat in a fact.

He cannot sum up a case against, or at least has yet to do so for how much he has been talking about it.

Again, VP, do I have to say it a million times?

I refused to do a summary because a summary

does not convey the whole case

, and instead,

I ASKED you if you wanted my alternative, a PBPA!

Can't make it clearer than that.
Just answer the darn question, one which I have had for quite some time:
Do you, or do you not, want me to do a PBPA?
Because that's the only way that I will post all of my accusations against someone.

I mean, I was only analyzing 2 posts out of everything he has said in this game and came up with that much stuff.

Yea, VP. And I analyzed your one post and found an equally abundant number of problems with that post alone.
Whatever you can dish out, I can defend against double. (Literally. Proof of falsehood in the accusation, Meta of doing it before.)
Yet you can't defend against the accusations I dish out, because mine are legit, your are not.

How much scummy behavior would it really take before you lynch somebody?

I can say the same about you, VP.

I realize I'm coming on very strong with this case, but I feel that this is the only way people are going to listen.

And I am coming on equally strong with my defense, if not superior to you. But, because people have declared themselves ignoring/skimming my posts, I apparently have to work much harder to be heard (hence the large font size parts of my posts. Anyone who claims to miss those is flat-out lying.), despite you having equally long posts to my own.

Look at how often Mastin has said something along the lines of 'That was a good post Zazie!'

Well, duh. Zazie's owning Khan in her arguments.

'Nuff said.

and also how much he has harped on the miller/death miller thing, which Zazie first brought up.

Death millers are the standard on EM. I pointed this out and asked Khan about it.

---
And, although I haven't checked, keep in mind I read by a page-by-page analysis. What I quote is the last thing I have read, in most cases. I don't remember off the top of my head, but it is very possible that I hadn't read Zaz's post when bringing up the point about the death miller. (Will have to check, though, as it is possible that Zaz brought it up and that's what caused me to post about it. I don't remember off the top of my head.)

More apologies for long posts. Hoping this comes to an end soon.

Not as long as I live, VP. Long posts are fun. I'm having the most fun I've had since the last time this happened. (Sadly, got lynched there, flipped town. It was fun, though.)

Meta. Same as Empking's utter non-participation. It might be irritating or anti-town, but it doesn't make them more or less likely to be scum.

SC shows good, solid reasoning in his posts. Anyone calling SC scum is very likely scum themselves.

If I didn't, I meant to greet ya.

Nah, Zaz. People can blame me, not you, this time.

---

And I was right. Page 31 has been loads of fun.

On to page 32. And as there's a 33, I'm sure there are some responses to my posts; it'll be interesting to see people's reactions to VP's load of BS on me.

[Wickedestjr]

OMG...I cant fucking take it anymore...I have replaced into 20+ games and this was the worst and longest read by leaps and bounds.

vote mastin.

Even after everyone has suggested that his play his anti-town..he continues. Other players post are lost...points are lost...I spent minutes fact checking then rescanning mastin's post to find the orginal bit I was checking....doing that 10-20 times per post I spent an hour...fuck even trying to quote something..more time spent finding what you want, and eliminating the fat. Why bother. This has to be a scum tactic....if not, I will never play in a game with you again...

you know what...I dont think I will either way.

What actually makes you think that Mastin is scum? It seems that you are just voting him because you want to get rid of the walls of text. Is this the only reason?

Sorry Mastin, but you and vp are making this game a headache. Plus, to me, vp wins the debate.

unvote
vote: Mastin

How? What are you reasons for voting Mastin?


There are eight posts which I haven't read. Seven of which were written by Mastin (of course) and the other was by VP.

[Mastin]

Looking forward to it.

Not like it's a problem.

Really, look at my posts, referring to my previous posts.
How many of those times do you think I actually went back and looked at the original post? Most of the time, just looking at the quote provided will be more than enough to jog my memory.

(Whether my memory is correct or not, eh, that's a different matter.)

So? It's not a scum tell.
Buddying up to SC, perhaps?

Mastin (7) - Kublai Khan, VP Baltar, roflcopter, MafiaMann, Wickedestjr, Mufasa, Lowell

Okay, this is a joke. A seriously bad joke. Khan, understandable; he's scum. Same with VP. Rofl's rofl. Mafia's likely scum, as is Mufasa, and Lowell's with VP and Khan. Wicked shouldn't be on there, as I have plenty of pressure on me already,
But...

Still, that bandwagon's size is alarming.
I can guarantee you that it's mostly scum driven.

this read is unbearable..

Look, curious. I've given the tips on how to get through my posts several times, now. Just use them.

Mastin is spouting too much...

And yet, you don't accuse VP, for equally long posts...

I hate the term "wall of text" but I can see this as a pro town move on his part

Both pro-town and anti-town, actually. It's a coin.
My actions are like a coin. There's a pro-town (INTENTIONS), and an anti-town side.

But in that coin, there is no pro-scum actions or pro-town (ALIGNMENT) actions.

not finishing the read, I would vote him...

Hypocrisy. You just said you saw the pro-town side of the argument.

.but I dont know what has been said the last 5 pages or so...my brain is fucking hurting..

What's been said, in the last five pages, is how to survive my posts, and why VP/Khan are scum.

Oh, fucking hell. I'm so close to throwing in the towel and asking for replacement because of Mastin's posts.

Throwing in the towel-->Giving up-->Admitting you're scum.
Scumslip.

The parsing of every sentence clause was bad, the endless repetition of the same points over and over within the same post is worse, but now the super-condescending LARGE TEXT he's added is beyond asinine.

Perhaps you ignored my explanation, Khan.

My point obviously isn't getting across to many people.
If they claim to not notice the large text, chances are, they're lying. The large text is meant to draw their attention, to make my points clear and impossible to miss.

If someone misses this point again, then I'll have to state it again in large-sized text as well, to get the message across.

It feels like his ego is so big he thinks he has to talk louder and slower for the rest of us simpletons to understand his massive genius.

Duh. I've nailed the scum already. And people aren't listening. So, yes, I am going to talk louder (read: large sized font, bolds, italicized, underlined, caps lock) to get the point across.

What's the problem with that?

He is literally sucking the fun out of this game and making it a chore.

Only for those who are attacking/voting me.

Once a person attacks me, and attacks me hard, there's no going back on it. They look bad for continuing. They look worse for stopping. I push for their lynch, even when they stop pushing for mine, so they have no choice but to push my lynch as scum, because if they don't, instead of getting lynched the next day, they get lynched THAT day.

Heh. My bad. I should've mentioned the fact, like I had earlier, that scum are the ONLY ones who attack me that hard, most of the time.
---
Also, Khan...
Most of your points seem to be defending yourself/attacking me.

Can you give your opinions on other matters? I can't recall any off the top of my head.

The above paragraph doesn't describe scum-hunting..

Yea. It does, Khan. Those who attack me and attack me HARD are almost always scum. Because, through my meta arguments, and my defenses, only scum would still be pushing for my lynch.

it describes a strategy of OMGUS.

Not really. I'm attacking the scum in this game. SC has disagreed with me yet I think of SC as town, and I think rofl (who has voted me all game) is town, so if your logic was true, I'd be OMGUS'ing them.
I'm not.

A) Admitting that he doesn't really care about alignments, he is all about personal vendettas and trying to get people lynched for the sole 'crime' of suspecting him.

Not true, Khan.

Those who attack me are scum.
So, yea, I care about alignments. Specifically, that they're scum attacking me, and I am nailing them for it.
I never said what you think I did. Twisting my words.

B) Admits that he will make-up scum-tells as part of his "ends justify the means" mentality.

Blatant twist of my words, again.

I make no scum-tells up. My scum-tells are possible scum-tells from players, who I think slipped and are that much more likely to be scum.

C) Bullying townies by threatening to eat away at their free time by forcing them to either respond to huge amounts of trumped-up charges or else look bad and get lynched.

No. I offered them CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS on how to read my posts, and explained how IT DOESN'T TAKE THAT LONG.

D) Presenting himself and his playstyle as exclusively pro-town.

This is the opposite of the truth, Khan.
I've been presenting my playstyle as a coin. Both pro-town AND ANTI-TOWN AS WELL.

I've been presenting myself, from my actions, as a NULL TELL. Because I'd do this regardless of alignment.

There is no null version of this type of strategy, so he presents his tactics as working well against scum, but doesn't include the fallout of what happens when a townie attacks him.

The thing is...
PRO-TOWN PLAYERS LISTEN TO MY LOGIC AND DO NOT ATTACK ME that often. I present my meta defense. I present my in-game defense. NOBODY BUT SCUM OR HEAVILY TUNNELING TOWN (*coughsroflcough*) WILL ATTACK ME AFTER THAT.

If the person he is revenge-attacking is town and backs off, then he will continue to push for a town-lynch.

No. Pro-town players will have backed off well before the point of no return that I lay out. The point of no return is where backing off looks worse than staying on.
Pro-town players, when listening to my in-game and meta explanations, will back down.
Scum will almost certainly not.
Which is why you and VP, amongst others, with Lowell at a close third, are scum.

If the person he is revenge-attacking is town and doesn't back off, then he will do whatever he can to smear the person to that they get lynched the next day.

The thing is, pro-town players will not attack me in the ways that you and VP have.

It IS my fault for failing to specify the fact that only scum would attack me that hard in that quote. I had done it in previous examples, but forgot to do it this time.

Bottom line is that anybody can smear anyone else. But Mastin's game of "I'm going to smear anyone that attacks me and take them down with me" isn't scum-hunting, it's scummy OMGUS. It's unforgivable anti-town behavior.

The thing is,

-I've scum hunted.
-I've logically explained my actions in-game.
-I've provided my town meta to support my actions.
-And ANY good pro-town player would back off after that. That's the last point of return. Me presenting my meta defense along with in-game explanations. If they attack me heavily after that, they're scum.

It's really that simple, Khan.

I'm not normally a policy lynch kinda guy... But what exactly is the point of keeping Mastin around?

Scum hunting.
THAT is what.
Only scum will push for my lynch HARD after I've given my good, solid, logical defenses.

He's basically insisting that all he wants to do is piss people off so that he can go toe-to-toe with and try to get them lynched by hook or by crook.

Kinda. Replace 'people' with 'scum', and you've got the right idea, Khan.

There's no conceivable way that his strategy would exclusively target scum.

Yes.
There is.

It's the simplest logic there is from me:

After giving a good, solid defense, covering all possible angles, any STILL attacking me heavily ARE scum. You and VP BOTH fall under this category like no others in this game.

If Mastin isn't scum, then he's a troll.

And a seriously personal attack can be added to the charges against Khan.

---

Caught up to my last post last night. Oh, this is so much fun.

-Khan's still scum,
-VP's still scum,
-The bandwagon on me is a joke.

[Mastin]

Oh, and I'm at L-2, by the way.

I am an Emerald Roleblocker. I blocked Kublai Khan Night Zero

, because he said he'd kill me if he got a killing role in the pre-game. Best random choice I could think of.

I've breadcrumbed this throughout the whole day ("I'm a roleblocker. I blocked XX because he said he'd kill me if he got a killing role"-->Dead giveaway.)

I SERIOUSLY suspect VP picked up on this after my two posts, and got afraid of it.

I'm thinking that we have four kills--

A vig, a serial killer, and two mafia factions. With one of their kills failing last night. Specifically, I think Khan submitted the kill, and when he failed, he panicked and claimed miller.

THAT is one of my main reasons for suspecting Khan, above all else.

[VP Baltar]

So, by breadcrumbed the whole day you mean you mentioned it one post where you claimed about fifty different things including being scum? Where else did you breadcrumb it at?

What grounds do you have for suspecting four killing factions? Even if you actually did block Khan (which I don't believe you did) the odds of hitting scum who sent the kill are unbelievably small.


Sounds believable. (That's sarcasm before you quote it and say I actually believe you).

[VP Baltar]

Actually i'm not seeing where you said that at all (and this is what I'm talking about with your posts, nothing is findable), please link the post where this breadcrumb is at.

[Mastin]

In other words, you think the people voting for Mastin are doing it mostly because his posts are annoying? Possibly, but what's wrong with the points against him that have already been provided?

The fact that I defended against them well, and yet, despite the large text and my best efforts, I STILL have been ignored.

Why not? "Because I don't feel like it" is not a good reason. You could be scum just voting Mastin for the heck of it. Why shouldn't we think that?

In Lowell's defense (*le gaspeth!* Mastin is defending one of his suspects! I'm not a tunneler, despite the claims against me of such. If there is an explanation which I feel is more likely, and yet, makes my suspects look slightly less scummy, I will still point it out.),
He had expressed his willingness to vote for me earlier.

You won't get a chance if I hang around L-2 for too long. Too easy to become L-1, and a lynch after that.

Mastin stating that I'm OMGUSing because he was voting for JR is quite a load.

The thing is, VP...
I was voting for Johnny.
Then you came in.
I continued attacking you, like I had Johnny.
You asked me to stop, essentially.
I didn't. I attacked you more.
(There might be some repetitions of the above for a while before the below happens. Still the same idea, though.)

And then, when it was clear I wasn't backing down, you throw together a case which has not even half the value of your Mafia case, and OMGUS-vote me.

Plenty of people were voting for JR, and I've barely mentioned any of them.

They stopped attacking Johnny when you replaced in.
I did not.

Once I criticised you over your playstle and then later, after more careful reading, over all your scummy actions, that is when you became convinced I was scum.

The thing is...

I HAD BEEN ATTACKING YOU SINCE BEFORE YOU REPLACED IN, CALLING JOHNNY SCUM, AND THESE ATTACKS CONTINUED WHEN YOU REPLACED IN.

There was

NO

elevated level of attacks; I was JUST CONTINUING MY ATTACKS AGAINST MY TOP SUSPECT.

Stop feeding the rest of the town your load of BS, VP.

You keep repeating this mantra and it seems less true every time you say it.

The thing is...I AM BRINGING UP MY META TO SUPPORT IT.

Metagaming IS legit evidence, no matter how much you try to discredit it. Have you looked at ANY of the games I linked?
Like, at all?
You don't have to read more than one or two of them to realize that what I have said thusfar is true and I believe every word of it.

I already pointed out how you are saying this while also saying things like "my actions are always pro-town".

The thing is...

I wasn't.

My actions are like a coin.

There's a Pro-Town Intentions side, and an Anti-town side.

There is NO pro-scum (role) side, or pro-town (role) side to the coin.
Just pro-town intentions and anti-town.

Making my actions NULL tells, and yet, both pro-town and anti-town in intention.

Really. I'll find the largest font size MS.net can produce and use it here if necessary to get this point through your brain.

I can quote that again if you'd like.

Yes. And I can quote out what you leave out to prove you wrong.

It's all a head game. Hell, in your last posts you're trying to say that you misrepping people's positions is a null tell. That is completely ludicrous.

1: This is a HUGE misrep. I was saying that I WASN'T MISREPPING PEOPLE.

2: And that this same accusation for the SAME BEHAVIOR was made in previous games where I was town. Did you actually LOOK at the link provided?

3: So, no. I wasn't saying me misrepping people's positions is a null tell.
I was saying that the attitude other people accuse of being me misrepping people's position is a null tell,
AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT MATTER.

VP's twisting my words and AGAIN leaving out key details of the argument.

Also, notice how Mastin is trying to softclaim a powerrole above in 782. The scare tactics continue.

No softclaim. Just a breadcrumb, and later, a hard claim supported by my breadcrumbs throughout the thread.
The fact that you picked up on my breadcrumb proves that you're scum, with Khan, who submitted the kill on whoever and failed.

re: Khan-VP-Lowell scum team- Again, this is stupid if you're such a meta lover. Newbie 696 I bussed my partner on Day 1 and that was probably the most I have ever defended a scum partner. In Amnesiac (which I don't know if the original threads exist still or not), I bussed CheifSkye4 and she was the first wagon that formed in the game. It ended up falling apart before her lynch, but I would have followed through. In One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, I bussed Josh Lyman on Day 1 for the lynch as well. You can also look at the ongoing you are in and see where I was on those lynches.

For someone who claims to care about meta so much and has warned everyone about my scum meta, you certainly don't pay very close attention.

Okay, VP. Let me explain to you a few things.

1: You, by one of the scumslips you made, were trying to attack Khan. I called you out for it. This could've led later to bussing.

2: You might not be bussing because either
-Khan's a vital scum power role,
or
-You have a small mafia faction, and need every player in there alive.

This doesn't make sense.

Makes sense to me. I stated the minimum percent that I see as the probability of all three of you being scum together: AT LEAST 60%.

What's there to not make sense about?

I say you said it had a 60% likelihood of being correct. Your reply is that I'm misrepping you because you said it had AT LEAST a 60% chance of being correct?

At least means the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM. Meaning that it could be LARGER THAN THE GIVEN NUMBER.

My point above is that your odds disproprtionately high you dolt.

1: Personal attack. ("dolt".)

2: Odd, seemed to me like you were selling the idea that it was too low of a percentage for it to be worthy of my vote.

That is what is ridiculous about that-that you are claiming to have caught an entire scum team without knowing anyone's alignment and are giving the odds at 60% (or apparently more). I don't care who you are, it's nearly impossible and you definitely are not that good of a player.

Oh, really?

-I nailed both of the scum in 735.
-ON PAGE TWO, I nailed both of the scum in 742.
-I nailed TWO OF THE THREE scum in MY FIRST TRUE POST of 760,
-I nailed half of the scum in 763, and after Battle Mage's fakeclaim, had nailed the last scum.
-762, I had later nailed the scum on day three, due to the Sir night-kill and Mitey's lurking. (Too bad I was dead. :/) I had been initially wrong (due to Henrz), but I got it right later on.

Yes. I am that good of a player, VP.
Stop attacking me and my record.
Your personal attacks against me should have NO place in mafia games.

Again he claims he never does anything scummy. Also, this magic coin simultaneously has a pro-town side and has no pro-town side. This is what I am saying when I refer to gibberish.

That's because there are two types of pro-town, VP.

The pro-town intentions (whether the style helps the town or not), versus the anti-town intentions (the 'or not' half of the coin), and this is the coin.

Versus the pro-town role, and the pro-scum role, which are not part of the coin,
Making it a null-tell, something I'd do regardless of alignment.
Yes, I never do anything scummy, VP.

Now that I call him on saying his actions are always pro-town, he argues they are always anti-town as well.

Explaining the difference. While my actions do have a pro-town side, they have an anti-town side as well.

Really, it's not that hard to understand. The coin metaphor works perfectly.

How much more non-sensical can one get. Let me ask you a question, Mastin: If you're actions are always null as you claim they are, do you believe you are above reproach? Should player ignore everything you say as being simultaneously "pro-town" and "anti-town"? If that is the case, then any scumhunting you are claiming to do is null as well.

1: I am making perfect sense. It's my fault for not specifying the difference between pro-town intentions and pro-town role, but now that that's clarified, we can move on.

2: Yes, my actions are always null.

3: But, no, a player shouldn't ignore me. As my scum hunting attempts are ALWAYS legit, regardless of my alignment, they shouldn't be ignored.

re: mastin being interested when suspected--this is horrible play if it is true.

Yea, well, live with it. I stated this in a Discussion thread. My definition of fun. I explained this further in this thread, giving more specifics, and I'll add that into said post after this game is finished, because my explanation in this thread is better.

It is essentially saying that you want to draw town focus away from actual scumhunting because it's more entertaining for you personally.

Misrep. It's me saying that I have fun scum hunting in my way.

Worth noting is that I skimmed most of your posts because they were horrendously long and void of good content.

Really, then?
How would you know how much of my posts were full of "spam", then, if you were just skimming them?
Lynch that scumbag VP, already.

Upon closer inspection, they show how scummy you really are.

Translation: "Upon learning that you're not going to back down, I had to try and make you look more scummy than you actually are, because I'm scum and you're not."

And thank you for pointing out that post because it shows exactly where your OMGUSing is coming from.

What you fail to take into consideration is the fact that I have constantly been attacking you, where you started attacking me only after it was clear I would not back down, OMGUS.

I attacked you over your playstyle and lack of real content (which are not personal attacks btw) and that is the exact moment you got up in arms about it.

The thing is, you're wrong. My attacks were constant. There was only an increase in their severity when you increased your content, giving me more to work with.
There goes your theory of me OMGUS'ing you.
The only possible increase in severity of attacks is due to an increased amount of content from you, incredibly scummy comments which I have noted.

I was one of the first people to call you out for rolefishing, so yes, please back this up with some quotes you plan to misrep.

No, actually.
That accusation had been there before.
The thing is, it wasn't rolefishing, because I was trapping someone already claimed.

NOW that I am claimed, I'm actually expecting people to ask me for more details in an attempt to trap me if I were scum.

But at the time, I was unclaimed, and was being rolefished, but was not, myself, rolefishing.

Lemme guess, the quote where I say at best it's entrapment, which came long after I accused you of rolefishing? I also don't think entrapment is a valid town tactic. There is a reason its illegal in the law books.

Yea, well, vigilantes are also strongly frowned upon by the law. They're still in mafia games.

Actually KK makes good points in post 785 and I'm not going to continue to respond to Mastin regurgitating the same crap over and over. KK I hope you don't replace out because I think Mastin is lynchable today and then everyone will be better off. I'm sure his scum partners are even considering lynching him at this point.

We're at 7 votes now, we only need four more. SC and anyone not voting Mastin, I ask you to use reason here. You can't honestly believe that Mastin is being effective at scumhunting or helping the town in any way. This matter is only going to resolve in either him or I being dead. Vote for whoever you think is acting more scummy and let's be done with these giant walls of back and forth that are making this game a drag.

And I just shot them down.

VP is asking for me to be bandwagonned for reasons I have shot down countless times. He also creates a false dilemma as well. ("It's either me, or him!")

---

Yea. VP's caught, lying scum. We need him lynched.

[MafiaMann]

unvote

Obviously dont want a mastin lynch now

[VP Baltar]

Mastin, stop with your replies to pages for a minute and quote your breadcrumbs.

[Wickedestjr]

@Zaz - What did you think about Mastin before he claimed? (town, neutral, scum) What did you think about Mastin after he claimed? (town, neutral, scum)

[Mastin]

Came across VP's post just after posting my own.

So, by breadcrumbed the whole day you mean you mentioned it one post where you claimed about fifty different things including being scum? Where else did you breadcrumb it at?

Let's see...my breadcrumbs...

Oh, and by the way, I'm a Mafia

Roleblocker

. My target last night was one of the names in here:
fallen angel
Faraday
Hayker
Johnny Rotten

Kublai Khan

MafiaMann
Mastin
Mufasa

Khan was in the middle (along with Johnny, ironically) of the people listed. This was intentional.

I didn't want to make it too obvious in case Khan was a killing role who got blocked.

Welcome to Mastin's layer. He's a serial-killer-lyncher-jester-member-of-a-four-man-mason-

roleblocker

-tracker-watcher group.

I always have to do this absurd claim some time in a game. It's just too fun not to do.

It should've been obvious that I had suspected Khan a great deal throughout the day, and gave a huge hint right here:

Perhaps you failed to consider that maybe Khan tried to do something last night as scum (like, say, night-kill someone), and him panicking if it failed to go through, thinking he'll be exposed.

If scum fail to successfully carry out their action, they have reason to be afraid, in my opinion.

I constantly brought up the example of a Roleblocker--why? Because I am one, of course.

I gave examples on the way to claim as a roleblocker, to give an example. ("I'm an Emerald Roleblocker. I blocked XX last night because he said he'd kill me if he got a killing role"-->Dead giveaway, for example.)

This became particularly heavy in the example posts you gave, VP, and I continued with the Roleblocker example in my response to your posts.
Why?
Again, because I am one.

These breadcrumbs have been here the entire game, just waiting to be exposed.

[Wickedestjr]

Specifically, I think Khan submitted the kill, and when he failed, he panicked and claimed miller.

Why would Khan panic about this? And what makes you think he would claim miller?

[Mastin]

What grounds do you have for suspecting four killing factions? Even if you actually did block Khan (which I don't believe you did) the odds of hitting scum who sent the kill are unbelievably small.

Because I suspect his Miller claim. I have since the beginning. To me, it seemed like either,
1: A legit claim,
or
2: Scum panicking about something having gone wrong and claiming miller.
Maybe he didn't submit the kill. Maybe he's a mafia power role who failed to carry out his action. Or perhaps he did and it was blocked.

But because of the miller claim after I blocked him, I had serious doubts.

Took a while to find the best early ones which I posted above.
While I didn't quote, I also gave the general idea of the later ones as well. Want those to prove it?

There's no denying that I am a Roleblocker, VP.
I'm fine if you doubt the alignment (Emerald vs. Scum) of my claim, due to how scum roleblockers are more common than town roleblockers,
But you can't doubt that I did block Khan, because there's an overwhelming amount of evidence to prove this to be the case.