The Manor: Chzo Mafia (Game Over!)

[zwetschenwasser]

YES OF COURSE SETAEL AND NAOMI ARE SCUM!!! I can't believe that they're still manipulating all of you with smooth talk.

[zwetschenwasser]

Also, Zazie is a girl, dev.

[Devestation]

ugh, I hate people who have a gender.

Setael my reasons are the same as anyone else who has said you are scum so far. All those reasons add up into one gigantic Setael-is-scum-fest.

[Stephoscope]

Where did Deves say you are still on his list? Because I can''t find it.

I can't tell what you are responding to here.

Also, the thing is, Elmo called out your wagon. Then you comment that we shouldn''t discuss a lynch yet. But when all the players vote for a lynch, you say nothing. Only when your previous wagon gets pointed out.

Again, my personal life has been crazy lately and I haven't had as much time to read and participate as I would like. I apologize, but I've really only managed to respond to posts that are addressed to me. And, by that point, I felt that we really needed to get the vig out of the way. I was not really a candidate for the vig then...it had nothing to do with me saving myself, and everything to do with making an informed lynch, based on the vig results, without rushing.

When this happened, it seemed that Setael would be vigged. And she, together with The Replacement (and a bit Tox), were the most against you during day 1. However, this was mainly due to her assumed scumpair: you and Deves, who also had a chance of getting shot. So if he''s town, her suspicions could have decreased against you. (This is speculation, and therefore only a thought in my mind which I wanted to say out loud).

To anyone who still thinks Devestation and I are a scum pair--please let's vig Devestation, I believe he is scum, I want him vigged.

Then there is Lamont. You attacked him when Amished said that he might have a PR as scum. You wanted to test this out.
However, later he did show a possible PR. You didn''t believe the reason he gave for this, yet you don''t ask him to not use it. So why was this?

Because I did not believe Naomi's claim at the time, and was attacking her instead of worrying about Lamont. You sound accusatory, so I'd appreciate it if you'd explain how this behavior even makes sense if I were scum.

[Stephoscope]

I am now almost positive that Naomi's claim is legitimate. Anyone who wants to say I'm scummy for *changing my mind based on analysis of information that is available* had better be able to explain.

[Stephoscope]

YES OF COURSE SETAEL AND NAOMI ARE SCUM!!! I can't believe that they're still manipulating all of you with smooth talk.

Both town IMHO.

[Stephoscope]

I say give it to Lamont. He's been posting a lot and seems to want to control the game, so it'll be good to throw a wrench into things to try and determine if he's town or if he has scumbuddies.

This last quote feels off. It seems to imply that Lammont posting a lot and wanting to control the game is a bad thing.

Not at all. It just meant using it to the town's advantage.

Sure, why not. I vote for Lamont. To restate: I believe using it on a player like him is a good idea because it will hopefully make it obvious whether or not he's town aligned, letting us use his enthusiasm for good or letting us get rid of him if he's scum, and make overall scumhunting easier as well.

More of this defense. I dont like it. This Lammont-Steph relation feels kinda forced.

I just don't see what the problem is here. I suggested a course of action based on my analysis of a player. Isn't analyzing what someone's doing in the here and now better than all the "meta" stuff everyone always uses?

iso 25 through iso 30 are blatant active lurking.

No way. Some of it was small talk, but I wanted to know if whatever Xtoxm said was information that could help us out.

iso 33 is again more fixation with Lammont. The reason : the devil smiley. WTF? Yes, this relation is forced, like Steph really wants Lammont to be lynched.

If he'd have just promised not to use it, none of that ever would have happened. Again, I just don't understand why he was that stubborn, and also at that time I explained why I didn't agree to the "deal" he proposed.

For the record, the small paper box I picked up doesn't seem to be doing anything

Why did you pick the word "seem"? Can you tell us what did the mod pmed you when he gave you the small paper box?

The mod PM'ed me nothing, of course. I didn't expect anything, I was just trying to think outside the box.

I was really just kidding about the box. I didn't expect it to be a "real" item, just figured it was worth a try.

Why did you think it was okay to lead people on that you had the box?

I was trying to make a joke. I'm sorry if it failed miserably.

Oh so it was a joke. Bad joke. And scummy.

I wholeheartedly disagree that being creative is scummy. What if the box really was useful?

iso 80 through iso 82 are blatant active lurking.

I will avoid these type of posts in the future if people are going to think they're scummy. I was just making comments on the status of the game.

This suddent Dev hate tingled my scumdar. It feels off.

But look at Devestation's shift, which I explained quite clearly was the reason for my initial suspicion of him!

Hey what happened here? Why do you think Naomi is town now?

The lack of a counter claim, plus the comments from Naomi and the mod today, are all in line with an honest townie who just happened to roleclaim really poorly.

Why has Stepho dropped off everyone's radar after getting wagoned nicely D1?

Let's answer that later. For now, let's discuss why in the world you want to make a decision about lynching when we don't even know what the vig will reveal.

Scummy.

Making decisions about the lynch before all the available information is ready (and as such perhaps delaying the obtaining of said information, i.e. the vig) is scummy, as far as I'm concerned.

Were you watching when I attacked the hell out of Naomi yesterday? I know exactly what seemed off about her case, but I posts from both her and the mod since then, plus the lack of a counterclaim with Amished available to protect (I believe his claim), makes me pretty sure that Naomi's claim is legit.

This sudden change of mind doesnt feel right.

Someone needs to explain to me the problem with changing one's mind. I can't imagine that being stubborn and close-minded is beneficial for the town.

Also, if dev is scum, then steph is prob his scumparnter.

Again, anyone who believes this needs to understand that I wholeheartedly want Devestation vigged today.

[zwetschenwasser]

GRAAAH!!!!

[Lamont_Cranston]

I am now almost positive that Naomi's claim is legitimate. Anyone who wants to say I'm scummy for *changing my mind based on analysis of information that is available* had better be able to explain.

I have clearly explained how Naomi is lying here. It is for you to explain what this "new info" is that suddenly brought you to change your mind.

[Lamont_Cranston]

The lack of a counter claim,

plus the comments from Naomi and the mod today

, are all in line with an honest townie who just happened to roleclaim really poorly.

1) If Trilby is a safe claim there would be no CC
2) What does, "plus the comments from Naomi and the mod today" mean?

[ZazieR]

My point was that she has done the same. Yet, nobody commented on her about it. Secondly, she''s possibly immune to the vig-kill, but not to the lynch. So, that''s not a valid argument.

Your point was about the vig-vote too.

No. I said that Deves had done two scummy things, and compared it to what Stepho had done. What you pointed out were things that are all included in anti-town behaviour. Anti-town behaviour isn''t the same as scummy behaviour.

Right but its part of the case which you left out which was my point.

As said, I pointed two things out I saw as scummy from him. I don't think anti-town behaviour is scummy, and therefore, I didn't include these points in my list of scummy things Deves has done.

The thing is, the first two can also be done by townies. To use the first against somebody, is very weak. There are more town than scum. How do you know which claim is from town and which from scum? Most of the time, you don''t. So I don''t like it that it''s used against somebody.
The selfvote is anti-town as it gives town less information. But once again, both scum and town do it. So to use this as an argument, you should first show that his selfvote was for a scum reason and not as frustrated town.
The third is indeed scummy, if it can be proven that he has actually seen of which he got accused. So that needs to be checked.

I don't care if town do it too. That's not my point and a bad reason not to vig/lynch somebody nor is it my entire argument, just things you forgot to point out.

Once again, as said, the first two are included in anti-town behaviour, which isn''t the same as scummy. The third, depends on the context

Wrong! It is part of the entire picture which needs to be examined.

What is part of the entire picture? All the above points?

Not really true. With some vig kills we''ll learn a lot, and with some just a bit. Comparing Stepho and Deves, I think that a vigkill against Stepho would give us more information.
But I agree with the last part of your paragraph.

Ya and I agree Stepho needs to start talking more because right now he is less valuable than even Deves is.

One thing bothers me about this Stepho wagon. He came out so strongly against Naomi. I really think this makes him town because she is obviously lying.

If you think he''s town, then why are you vig-voting him???

Because he is heavily lurking and his case needs to be explored. Part of that case revolves around Naomi. We can discuss this now as well. Two competing wagons is very helpful to the town.

One thing bothers me about this Stepho wagon. He came out so strongly against Naomi. I really think this makes him town because she is obviously lying.

May I ask what your opinion of Naomi would be if Stepho flips scum?

[ZazieR]

Tajo, regarding your post about Stepho, you mentioned Stepho VS Lamont a lot.
So I was wondering if you could also see a connection between Stepho and Lamont.

[ZazieR]

Setael, you said this:

2 reasons I'm not getting behind the Stepho wagon:

1- the presence of a counter wagon that might succeed actually makes me feel better about vigging dev. I would expect scum to fight it, so if it was too easy I'd be worried. Elmo we know is town but if dev flips scum zaz, pyro and xtoxm will need to be looked at. I think scum would feel comfortable about this since dev's wagon derails MY wagon so if they're accused they can point to my wagon as a sort of alibi.

2- steph's post that she thinks I'm town at a crucial point. Scum would have had no reason not to weigh in against me at that point and she wouldn't have been suspect when I flipped town. Basically, same reason I changed my mind about Lamont.

But at the same time, you think that Stepho could be scumbuddies with Deves.
So what you''re saying in this quote is basically that those vig-voting Stepho might contain scum that don''t want Deves to get vigged. Combined with that you think Stepho might be a scumbuddy from Deves, you''re thinking that there is possibly scum on the vig-wagon from Stepho-scum in order to not get Deves-scum vigged.
If this is true, how does this make sense?
And if I misunderstood your position, please explain.

Setael, still this^^

[ZazieR]

Also, Zazie is a girl, dev.

This. Please remind it. Those who haven't can't tell you what happened to them

[ZazieR]

ugh, I hate people who have a gender.

Setael my reasons are the same as anyone else who has said you are scum so far. All those reasons add up into one gigantic Setael-is-scum-fest.

Can you restate them?

[Stephoscope]

I am now almost positive that Naomi's claim is legitimate. Anyone who wants to say I'm scummy for *changing my mind based on analysis of information that is available* had better be able to explain.

I have clearly explained how Naomi is lying here. It is for you to explain what this "new info" is that suddenly brought you to change your mind.

Why are you and Devestation so keen on giving *you* the credit for the attack on Naomi's claim that *I* had so much to do with?

I already said that I changed my mind and determined that Naomi's statements were more in line with an inexperienced townie than with scum. I don't feel any need to waste more time explaining my thoughts on Naomi, given that she is apparently not a candidate for vig or lynch. If you're going to act like I'm scummy, you'd better explain how my actions are in line with what scum might do.

[populartajo]

Tajo, regarding your post about Stepho, you mentioned Stepho VS Lamont a lot.
So I was wondering if you could also see a connection between Stepho and Lamont.

As I pointed out Steph is really keen on lynching Lammont. Lyncher/lynchee relationship comes to mind. Pretty clear that if one of them is scum, the other its automatically cleared of being scum with the other.

[populartajo]

1906 is better than I expected. Steph really looks more dense than scummy.

Lammont, one question, why do you think Steph needs to die if he believes Naomi claim that you dont believe? Doesnt it make more sense to you that Naomi should be the one dying first?

[Lamont_Cranston]

One thing bothers me about this Stepho wagon. He came out so strongly against Naomi. I really think this makes him town because she is obviously lying.

May I ask what your opinion of Naomi would be if Stepho flips scum?

Zaze, I'm glad you brought that up because I think that really needs to be explored. I'm going to go right now and examine the EOD1 and see if there is any way this could be a bus...



Thanks for reminding me.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Doesnt it make more sense to you that Naomi should be the one dying first?

Yes.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Why do you think Steph needs to die if he believes Naomi claim?

Researching...

[ZazieR]

Where did Deves say you are still on his list? Because I can''t find it.

I can't tell what you are responding to here.

I didn't respond to anything. I looked back at your reason for vig-voting Deves. It had to do with you being on his scumlist, while Lamont wasn't for reasons that can also be stated for you (The attack against the claim from Naomi). Yet, I can't find where he said that you were on his list. So can you show where he did say so?

Also, the thing is, Elmo called out your wagon. Then you comment that we shouldn''t discuss a lynch yet. But when all the players vote for a lynch, you say nothing. Only when your previous wagon gets pointed out.

Again, my personal life has been crazy lately and I haven't had as much time to read and participate as I would like. I apologize, but I've really only managed to respond to posts that are addressed to me. And, by that point, I felt that we really needed to get the vig out of the way. I was not really a candidate for the vig then...it had nothing to do with me saving myself, and everything to do with making an informed lynch, based on the vig results, without rushing.

Can you give a date since when RL got crazy for you?

When this happened, it seemed that Setael would be vigged. And she, together with The Replacement (and a bit Tox), were the most against you during day 1. However, this was mainly due to her assumed scumpair: you and Deves, who also had a chance of getting shot. So if he''s town, her suspicions could have decreased against you. (This is speculation, and therefore only a thought in my mind which I wanted to say out loud).

To anyone who still thinks Devestation and I are a scum pair--please let's vig Devestation, I believe he is scum, I want him vigged.

The thought in my mind has gotten even more stronger.

Then there is Lamont. You attacked him when Amished said that he might have a PR as scum. You wanted to test this out.
However, later he did show a possible PR. You didn''t believe the reason he gave for this, yet you don''t ask him to not use it. So why was this?

Because I did not believe Naomi's claim at the time, and was attacking her instead of worrying about Lamont. You sound accusatory, so I'd appreciate it if you'd explain how this behavior even makes sense if I were scum.

Yet, you also thought Lamont was lying. But did nothing to question his 'PR' at that time. Even though you were very positive that he was scum, before Naomi claimed due to an example of scum having to use a PR. I see no reason why you'd not question him about a PR you thought was fake.
There are some reasons possible:
-Naomi claimed Trilby. If you are scum and she's not, you want the powerrole out of the game.
-Lamont is your buddy. The first attack was used to give the impression that you two aren't scum together(bussing). But due to Naomi, you could drop your attacks, trying to save one of you or Lamont one day extra.
-Nobody was buying your attacks against Lamont, and some saw them as scummy. To not draw unwanted attention, you attack somebody else: Naomi.

Need more?

[ZazieR]

The lack of a counter claim,

plus the comments from Naomi and the mod today

, are all in line with an honest townie who just happened to roleclaim really poorly.

1) If Trilby is a safe claim there would be no CC
2) What does, "plus the comments from Naomi and the mod today" mean?

I'm interested in the answer to 2 as well.

[ZazieR]

I am now almost positive that Naomi's claim is legitimate. Anyone who wants to say I'm scummy for *changing my mind based on analysis of information that is available* had better be able to explain.

I have clearly explained how Naomi is lying here. It is for you to explain what this "new info" is that suddenly brought you to change your mind.

Why are you and Devestation so keen on giving *you* the credit for the attack on Naomi's claim that *I* had so much to do with?

I already said that I changed my mind and determined that Naomi's statements were more in line with an inexperienced townie than with scum. I don't feel any need to waste more time explaining my thoughts on Naomi, given that she is apparently not a candidate for vig or lynch. If you're going to act like I'm scummy, you'd better explain how my actions are in line with what scum might do.

Even if she wasn't a candidate, your thought process here could give some info regarding you. So why not give this info?
Also, last VC, she had votes. So:

Mod

- could we get a VC?

[ZazieR]

@Tajo

You actually 'commented' on Stepho's response, but you never state what you thought of Deves response. Why's that and what did you think of it?