This is mostly for SC to show him my point about Mastin's misrepping and straining to make a case against his targets, but encourage everyone to read it. However, this is likely to be long and if you only want to skim with it, I'm cool.
Misrep, Shoddy reasoning, and Contradictions: A 45-point Review on Why Mastin is Scummy
By VP Baltar
For the purposes of this academic analysis I shall be reviewing post
708 and
709. This is merely a small cross section of his posts in this game, and yet there is a huge amount of scummy points and absurd stretches of logic being made here. Let us begin with 709 since that isn't about me as much:
Point 1)
First he claims that lowell is buddying with me because he said this:
lowell wrote:Very happy with VPs first post. His take on the miller situation is well put (Zazie's pursuit of it looks worse than KKs response to said pursuit), as is his take on mastin's post-walls of idiocy.
All I see here is mild agreement. What I think is far more likely in this case is that lowell said that mastin makes "post-walls of idiocy" and mastin is OMGUSing becase he took it personally. As far as I know this is the only real time that lowell even mentions me. To propose it is buddying is absurd hyperbole. If this is Mastin's definition of buddying, he would have to extend it to anyone in the game whoever agreed with anybody else.
2) Khan asks Zazie if she is a Lyncher. Mastin claims this is rolefishing, but how can someone be fishing for an anti-town role? More false accusations.
3)
Mastin wrote:Khan wrote:
ZazieR and Mastin jumped on and demanded more information than I had ("What kind of Miller?!").
This seems to contradict with what you said earlier--didn't you mention knowing what type of Miller you were?
An unquoted accusation that makes no sense. Khan claimed miller. Zazie and Mastin (and a third part I think, perhaps Kise) did demand to know if he was a miller or death miller. These are facts, so what is the contradiction?
4)
Mastin wrote:Because, as shown, there is a clear difference between Emerald and not-Emerald.
Emerald *role*--town.
Not Emerald *role*--Cerulean or the other mafia faction.
This has already been pointed out to be utter crap. Mastin repeatedly comes back to this point, which is really insignificant and it makes complete sense why someone would just say miller. Just look how much he harps on this point in 709. Again he is stretching to make something that isn't really scummy look scummy.
5)
Mastin wrote:Khan wrote:
Unless Mastin is trying to claim that there are multiple townie factions or independent survivors in this game.
Not only is this 1: Baseless speculation,
but it's aslo
2: Rolefishing.
Khan says Mastin may be implying something about the setup of the game. Mastin claims it is rolefishing. These are not really related, but accusing someone of rolefishing makes them sound scummy. Misrep.
6)
Mastin wrote:Failing to specify the Emerald part is a HUGE scumslip.
If it is such a HUGE scumslip, why is he voting for me? More exaggeration. My feeling is that because I'm attacking him harder than Khan, he feels the need to reciprocate.
7)
Mastin wrote:If I give evidence to support that my supposed "scummy activity" is really just a null tell from me, then it's no longer a scum tell, and can be ignored, because it's my natural playstyle, a null tell, and not a scum tell.
Again pointing out how no one should be calling him scummy. How dare they! Everything is null against Mastin.
8)
Mastin wrote:VP has topped my scumdar for his posts this game, and add to that, Johnny's play. (I'll work on that PBPA if you REALLY want to know the accusations against you THAT badly, VP.)
Empty threats of long posts, which no one wants to read. If I'm so blatantly scummy, then why can't the general ideas at least be summed up? I've asked and asked and have seen jacksquat. Also, why has no one else accused me of being scum if it's so completely obvious?
9)
Mastin wrote:Faraday wrote:
Baltar looks obv town to me, and the Johnny Rotten wagon itself was weird.
Odd, to me, he looks obv scum, and the wagon was fueled by legitimate reasons, albeit mostly unexplained by the voters. ("All the reasons have already been said"<--Most common reason for bandwagonning Johnny.)
Mastin wrote:Faraday wrote:
I agree w/ the earlier rofl post about why miller claim won't let him live to endgame.
The question is:
Did KHAN, the person MAKING the claim, know about it before rofl said it?
If not, then he easily could've done it, thinking it was the correct move, but later realized too late that it was a tactical error.
This is complete WIFOM.
10)
Mastin wrote:SC wrote:
Mastin, on the other hand, I'd say you have contradictions in your play, and I hate contradictions.
My play is consistent, if you know what you're looking for.
Translation: It's not my fault if you find me scummy, and I will not answer any accusations against me.
He restates that here:
But I'm even MORE different than an average player...
11)
Mastin wrote:It was a trap, on a player already claimed.
Those rolefishing me are asking for information from me, when I have not claimed.
This is being hypocritical at best.
12)
Mastin wrote:Me simply stating facts.
NOBODY has ever gotten away from an accusation on me without later regretting it.
-They'll face walls of text
-IF they get me lynched, they'll often be lynched the next day
-And other such various regrets.
More empty threats meant to divert attention away from him.
13) Hypocritically accuses rofl of tunnelling while letting Zazie off the hook as only having "a bit of confirmation bias". Zazie has posted far more in this game and hasn't moved her vote at all. Rofl has voted for more than Mastin. Again, Mastin is lobbing accusations at his detractors while giving those who agree with him a free pass. Sure sign of scum trying to go with the flow and not draw unnecessary attention.
14)
Mastin wrote:So?
It's true; I can support it with meta.
What's the problem with that?
Again pointing out how his scummy behavior shouldn't apply.
Ok, onto chapter 2, Post 708
15)
Mastin wrote:VP wrote:
It is indeed a ridiculous stretch.
I point out the possibility. I admit that it's doubtful, but would you rather have me ignore a potential scumslip?
You're complaining about me not doing enough scum hunting; comments such as that one are how I do mine.
I point out that his point is bad. He admits that it is "doubtful". He tries to claim he is being thorough, but this is completely illogical. If he was really trying to point out every possibility then he'd still be on about page three with his reading. What is far more likely here is that he's throwing mud and seeing what sticks, a common scum move.
This point is repeated about his other ridiculous scumslip he references here he tries to insinuate that Mufasa using the word "men" in his post is a scumslip:
Mastin wrote:I mentioned it because it was a possible scumslip.
What more do I need?
You need logic, descretion and a general reading ability. Throwing mud again.
16) Still on the point of the ridiculous "men slip", I ask this:
Mastin wrote:VP wrote:
Why not attack him over having like two posts all game and saying absolutely nothing, that makes much more sense.
Because, in a game of this size and with as active posters as we have here, that level of activity is nothing to be suspicious of.
I ask him why he didn't attack mufasa over an obviously scummy action, such as having only two posts. Mastin tries to justify this, while he thinks the "men" thing is a possible sign of scum. How much worse can your logic get?
17)
Mastin wrote:How is pointing out a possible scumslip NOT scum hunting?
So, he is claiming that pointing out irrelevant and illogical things like that above is really scum hunting. This is my point about his giant walls. People aren't really reading them for actual content and are letting a lot of garbage pass as actively scumhunting, which it clearly is not when you look closely at it. Quantity =/= Quality
18)
Mastin wrote:I was trying to bait Kublai Khan, someone who had already claimed, into revealing something which would make his claim obviously fake (too much flavor, too little, inconsistent flavor, etc). I have explained that I refuse to elaborate on if he got it correct, because it'd be anti-town to do so.
Apart from justifying his rolefishing, he is saying he won't point out whether he belives Khan 'got the answer right' or not and claims it would be anti-town to do so. Why is would it be anti-town you ask? Answer: it's not.
I'll fill everyone in on what the real case is, Mastin doesn't have an answer because he was rolefishing. Furthermore, it became obvious that Khan did not have extra flavor just like the rest of the town, and Mastin does not want to acknowledge this because it would detract from trying to get a mislynch on Khan. Don't you think if Khan had actually gotten it "wrong" Mastin would have been all over it? He has certainly said that he isn't the type to let things he considers scummy to slide.
19)
Mastin wrote:On a side-note, it's a scum tell to quote the summaries I make and use the summary as the entire logic behind the statement/conclusion from it when the entire argument does it better than the summary, in my opinion.)
Being succinct is not a scumtell. More mudslinging.
20)
Mastin wrote:Emerald isn't flavor--
Yes, it is. I asked him what an Emerald does to affect a role and he couldn't answer me. The fact that he wants to argue over definitions such as what a role is and what flavor is when he is clearly mistaken shows he is overdefensive scum.
21)
Mastin wrote:One should NEVER be unsure of their role. If you have a question,
ASK DURING THE NIGHT.
We have all of Night Zero to clarify details like this.
If I were a miller, I'd definitely ask any question regarding the type of miller I am during the Night Zero chat.
It's the best time to do things.
Claims that because Khan didn't do something the way he would he is scum. This is a ridiculous justification for your argument. Also, I highly doubt Khan had any question about whether he was a miller or death miller until you guys had an aneurism over it. He clarified because you asked and then you claim he is scummy for clarifying for your benefit. You coaxed him into asking and then justified your forgone conclusion from that fact. That's entrapment. You know who does that: scum.
22)
Mastin wrote:The fact that Khan has only two active defenders (VP, Lowell. Rofl did so earlier, but hasn't truly defended Khan other than for the fact that he claimed at exactly the right time and gave reasoning why the claim doesn't work as scum) is more proof in my eyes that Khan's scum, and that his defenders are his scumbuddies.
More ridiculous assumptions and bending of facts to fit his viewpoint. Rofl hasn't defended Khan, he says. Orly?
rofl's first post wrote:kublai khan is town, and wins the common sense award for knowing what to do as a miller
rofl wrote:no mastin, backing up your kublai khan vote with the fact that he claimed miller is not "icing on the cake" and i will not let you pretend its part of your meaningless antics, its scummy and you will now be lynched. trying to unconfirm a player who is now as good as confirmed town will not stand on my watch.
rofl wrote:once you have claimed miller the following things become true:
1) you are locked into that claim. as scum, this means you will not have the option of doing any of the following things: counterclaiming a power role in lylo, fakeclaiming an investigative/protective role with a false guilty/protect, adapting to a changing game environment such as discovering that the setup may be all vanilla, etc. there are many ways for you to find yourself in a situation several game days later where you are simply fucked because you locked yourself out of the right strategic move as scum.
2) no matter how your claim plays out, there is just no freaking way you're living to endgame. one of two things will happen - a vigilante will either not believe you or have no better idea who to shoot and will take the safest vigilante shot in the history of the game of mafia, the claimed miller, or an opposing scumteam/sk will come to the point where they need to start killing semi-cleared players because cleared players are the scum's SINGLE WORST NIGHTMARE and they will end up killing you.
therefore we are never, ever lynching kublai khan
rofl wrote:i'm getting the feeling that people are posting without having actually read the entire thread. for reference, this post is very important, and if you are still discussing kublai khan right now i would like you to read it and then explain why you think its still in the town's best interest to spend time and energy debating the miller claim.
rofl wrote:we're still not lynching the claimed miller, sorry zaz
Ok, I think I've effectively proven my point. I can almost guarantee this is still rofl's stance. You can ask him if you'd like.
*sidenote* looking at rofl in iso I see another incident here where he points out an early incident of Mastin
rolefishing
23)
Mastin wrote:VP wrote:Quote:
While I agree that he shouldn't have doubted his status as a regular miller because that is what his PM said,
If you agree with the scum tell,
Why aren't you voting for him, then?
Misrep. I never believed it to be a scumtell. I said he shouldn't have doubted it just because you guys were being stubborn. Doubt isn't a scumtell. Even if I actually believed this to be a scumtell (and I don't) why would that mean I have to vote him? It doesn't. Mastin is just trying to add weight to his argument by implying that I'm contradicting myself.
24)
Mastin wrote:Zaz does, admittedly, seem to be tunneling a bit.
Another free pass for Zaz, while he attacks other players for tunneling. See point above why this is scummy.
25)He answers every single point I make toward Zazier. What was the reason for this? I don't know.
26)
Mastin wrote:VP wrote:
I don't personally feel
as you are making him out to be
See emphasis.
He says he doesn't think that Khan's Obv scum as Zaz says.
That doesn't mean he doesn't think Khan is scum. In fact, to me, it implies that he DOES think that Khan is scum, just not obvious scum--yet defends him, anyway.
Anyone else notice this?
I sure did.
I mean, do I even really have to point out how much of a misrep of my position on the Khan situation. Because I try to be a reasonable person an mention the remote possibility that Khan could be scum, Mastin tries to twist my words into really saying that I DO think he is scum. This is typical scum semantics arguments and misrep.
27)
Mastin wrote:(Same with you, VP. I prefer to hold back on PBPA's at this point in time, and don't do summaries of suspicions without a PBPA most of the time, so if you want the accusations against you, it'll be a huge PBPA-style post. I think we can both agree that this would be, at this time, a waste of time and effort.)
Says he can't provide suspicions on me because he'd have to do a PBPA, and yet he has been able to state his suspicions on many other players in this game without doing an entire PBPA. What makes me different? Also, why can't he state general things (ie lurker, misreps often, OMGUS, etc.etc.) without doing a PBPA? The answer is that he doesn't have a strong case and would rather not going down the alley of making weak accusations.
28)
Mastin wrote:VP wrote:
Also, do you really think a claimed miller in a large game is going to be able to ride that claim to victory?
Old news. Rofl said this already. I think it was a tactical error from Khan, who didn't think of the consequences a miller claim would have, and he's forced to defend himself now.
Notice how he first tries to discredit this point as "old news". Then rather than answer my question he states why he thinks Khan is scum. It's a valid point and he can't refute it, so he deflects back to Khan.
Not only that, but he then accepts that I am correct in the next quote:
Mastin wrote:VP wrote:
Even if he is scum, he put a big target on his back and would likely have multiple killing factions gunning for him tonight.
Exactly why it was a tactical error, one which Khan likely overlooked.
He accepts that he is likely to be killed at night, but says this proves why Khan is scum and we should waste a lynch on him.
29)He claims that the words JR used in his replacement request are scummy, which is utterly ridiculous WIFOM. How could anyone have any possible legitimate insight into this?
30)
Mastin wrote:Me?
Sum things up?
In theory, possible.
In reality, summaries only convey part of the message; I can't deliver it all without doing a PBPA.
More refusal to state any actual points against me. see above.
31)
Mastin wrote:People who fail to see how I am scum hunting, and how I have caught scum before with this tactic, will be far more likely to be scum--especially when I am targeting THEM.
Ridiculous inflation of self-importance. Again trying to say that you if you don't agree with him and his method you are likely scum.
32)
Mastin wrote:Commenting on only my suspect's posts and taking the automatically most scummy interpretation in order to push for their lynch.
Current primary target: VPB.
Still want me to focus, VP? That's how I would.
Threats instead of scumhunting.
33)
Mastin wrote:VP wrote:
It looks like you are trying to make the town afraid of me or something.
There's that referring to the town in third person thing, again, which is a scum tell
I've pointed this out already. He says referring to the "the town" is a scumtell, while referring to "the town". Also, how exactly does one not refer to the town in the third person? It's a collective group, and is therefore always third person. Misrep, mudslinging and generally bad logic all in one!
34)
Mastin wrote:I saw you in Inventor, and I thought you were town there. I saw you in an ongoing game, thought you were town. I have heard via your nomination for Best Newbie that in your first game, as scum, you played very well. And if I looked at your posts there, I'm sure I'd think you were town there as well.
Tries to frighten the town with my meta and because I got a Scummy nomination. Bringing this up isn't even valid as a point against me because he claims that I always look pro-town. It's all psychological games that just happen to work in his favor.
35)He asks for links to my town games. I tell him they are readily available in my wiki. His reply?
Mastin wrote:I find it to be a slight town tell to post the links yourself, and a slight scum tell to not.
(You failed that test.)
So I'm scummy because I directed you to the exact place where you can find all of my town games rather than choosing which ones reflect best on me and posting them in the thread. This is the height of idiocy.
36)
Mastin wrote:VP wrote:
Because that is where I first posted to say hi.
The logical thought process is to go to page one, post your hi message from there, and then go back to page one to start rereading. It's what I've always done. Because it makes sense to me.
VP wrote:
I also wanted to see who was being voted and by who so I could compare it to the progression throughout the game.
Iso-mod does this better than anything else.
VP wrote:
You're saying you would not do something like that upon replacing in?
I go to the first page and immediately start reading. When I reach the bottom of the first page, I type in the Quick Reply box my Hi, hello, etc. post and then get to page two.
Again we have an incident where Mastin is calling someone scummy because they didn't do something the way he would. Not only is this not a scumtell in any, way, shape or form, but it is an illogical point coming from a player who claims to be so "unique" and does things differently from everybody else.
37)
Mastin wrote:VP wrote:
I won't deny there are some good points in some of your posts,
Odd, that you say this, when most of my points are against you and Khan.
Scumslip?
Give him an inch and he takes a mile. I try to cut him some slack and say that
some
, which does not necessarily mean many, of his points are good and he tries to turn this to say that I'm claiming scum. The heigh of idiocy continues to rise. Additionally, as I already pointed out, he is saying that most of his scumhunting has been on me, which is completely not true considering I replaced 25 pages into this game. You don't have to be a genius to figure out why this is a lie.
38)
Mastin wrote:I respond to fluff with fluff. Other than that, I might make a fluff response occasionally, but not often. Most of my posts are filled with scum hunting. You're just afraid to see it.
Admits to, and then excuses his fluff. Then threatens me.
Mastin wrote: I'll focus on you and Khan, a handful of suspects. I'll scum hunt against my primary suspects and make good, logical cases against them.
Really, VP--you're making it sound like you WANT for me to attack you harder.
More threats, very little scumhunting.
39)
Mastin wrote:VP wrote:
My point was saying that your posting style is not as pro-town as you think.
It is, too.
This basically sums it up. Rather than actually respond to what I'm saying or have a logical discussion he acts bullheaded about it. This isn't necessarily scummy in and of itself, but continuing to spam the thread when asked many times to stop and given reasons why should stop, is definitely scummy.
40)
Mastin wrote:VP wrote:
-How are my reactions suspect?
Because your reactions are NOT the pro-town reactions to my post. I will NOT specify specifics, because it will allow you to adjust your playstyle to avoid it. I want you to continue digging your hole deeper with your reactions to me.
Fails to answer my question other than stating he's right and I'm wrong.
41)
Mastin wrote:VP wrote:
-And so on is not a point.
Most of the other points after that are too minor/repetitive for me to list.
Hence, "And so on".
Or there were no other points and you're stretching to make your arguments seem more valid than they really are.
42)
Mastin wrote:VP wrote:
As much as you would like to believe you two post the same, you do not.
Besides the fact that I have lots of long posts, and she has lots of short posts, what makes us that different, VP?
Repetition of question I already answered, which he even replies to in post 708. ie, actively lurking and not really scumhunting.
43) repeats a shitload of points he already made to pad out his posts. repeating things also helps to psychologically reinforce them in the minds of other players as being true.
44)
Mastin wrote:People not reading my posts is their problem. If--as mafia--I made a slip, and people failed to notice it due to their own laziness, it's THEIR PROBLEM FOR BEING LAZY.
Again, the world has to revolve around Mastin. I give a valid reason why he should trim his posts down (it makes it hard to review the game later) and his response is 'not my problem'.
45)
Mastin wrote:VP wrote:
-Freedom to do what?
Freedom's freedom. I can do anything with freedom.
Generally, though, it gives me the freedom to scum hunt however I wish to.
This is jibberish.
-----------------------------------------------------------
I'm going to stop here. These are 45 things I see wrong with Mastin, and this only in his last two posts. Some of the points are repetitions on similar themes in his play, but it's all scummy behavior. I really don't see how anyone could possibly be seeing him as pro-town. If anyone needs further elaboration, I'll continue, but for crying out loud just look at how many scummy actions he is trying to get by with.
