Mini 788 - Fantasy Mafia [OVER]

[Kmd4390]

We have just over 2 hours.

Unvote, Vote Starbuck

The SK (username abbreviation, not role XD) lynch isn't going to happen.

[ChannelDelibird]

unvote, vote: Starbuck

Sorry.

[ortolan]

Is that enough to lynch?

[ortolan]

Can someone else vote her please, I believe that's the same people who were voting her before (CDB replaced Mixologist who was already voting her).

[SensFan]

Reserved for lynch scene, coming tomorrow!

[SensFan]

The twelve of you took a few minutes to fully grasp the importance of this situation. Everyone appeared to be in a bit of a daze during this time, grasping their bearings in their new environment. Soon after, though, it was down to business.

Once the accusations started to fly, they went in absolutely every which way, no one seemed to avoid being fingered at least a little. Most of you had no clue who could be trusted, while the rest tried desperately to mesh in with the group and appear clueless, while doing their best to point fingers in the wrong direction.

As the Sun began to set, the number of targets narrowed considerably, leaving just a few people left for consideration of being locked up. The Sun was just going down over the horizon, and still no decision had been reached, though a serious movement to lock up the delegate nicknamed 'Starbuck' was happenining.

In the end, it was too little, too late, as they couldn't get an agreement on anyone.

---

Starbuck - 6 (Empking, ZazieR, orangepenguin, orto, KMD, ChannelDelibird)
ortolan - 2 (Sudo, Shadow)
Shadow Knight - 1 (Goat)
KMD - 1 (Tony)

Not voting - 2 (Starbuck, Dizzy)

7 to lynch

---

You did not reach a lynch today.
Night ends in 24, or whenever I get all choices, whichever is later. Night will last no longer than 48 hours.

[SensFan]

The sun rizes from the far horizon, shining its light on all of you, waking you from your peaceful slumber. Lazily, you get up, get out of bed, and go about your usual, day-to-day activites. Well, you would, except now you remember - you're a part of this wierd and twisted way of trying to solve the problems in Alledaags.

So, you get up, get out of bed, and head out to the arranged meeting place, to meet with the other 11 people, and Verkozen Woordvoerder. "Yesterday," he reminds you, "you didn't manage to make an arrest. I expect better of you today, the future of our land is in your hands." He pauses for a second, and everyone else seems to realize for the first time that you're a few heads short.

"It appears," he continues, "that whoever murderered Elena isn't wasting any time. There was another victim overnight." Waving his arms, a bunch of what look like hired muscle come out, carrying a body. "The one known as 'Sudo_Nym'," explains Woordvoerder, "was found dead this morning." As the men lay dowm the body, you see a large and rugged wolf, far more than most, completely trampled. The tufts of hair around the facial area are all that you need to identify him as a Werewolf.

"Thankfully, that was the only overnight death." As the words leave his mouth, everyone else quickly looks around; there's still someone missing, or so you thought. "Another person was attacked last night," Verkozen said, correctly identifying the confused looks, "the one you know as Starbuck was found...injured...this morning." A short and stubby Dwarf is brought out, covered from head to toe in heavily-bleeding wounds. "Starbuck was attacked by a Werewolf last night, and, due to the rules of Alledaags, lost all democratic rights, and will need to be contained in the hospitals every night. Still, though, he's harmless during the day, so we'll leave him here, he can talk."

With that, the man leaves.

---

Sudo_Nym,

Werewolves (Pro-Town Stumper)

, was killed Night 1.
Starbuck,

Dwarves (Pro-Town Tough-Skinned Actor)

, was Stumped Night 1. She can talk in-thread, but is otherwise dead.

---

It is now Day 2.

With 10 alive, it'll be 6 to lynch!

Deadline is July 15th, 20:00 EST.

[Starbuck]

Alright Village, lets get this show on the road.


The reason you couldn't lynch me is because it would take an extra vote to do so. I needed 8 instead of 7, but I wasn't going to reveal that because I didn't want the Mafia to know that.

This actually works out better because I can still help you guys (I already PM'd Sens to verify), because I'm not "technically dead" just injured.


I actually giggled when I saw that I was beaten up by Sudo, a fellow townie.

[ortolan]

Sudo's reveal gives me somewhat more confidence in ZazieR's motivations (pairing theory was wrong), but I retain my position on Andycya/Izzy

Vote: DizzyIzzyB13

[Goatrevolt]

Vote DizzyIzzy

[Kmd4390]

Ok, I decided this game needed a serious re-read over night. I decided this. Ortolan is obvscum. My vote probably won't move off of him unless we need a deadline lynch or someone claims scum. Here's what I found:

--------------------------

His vote on Sudo (in his second post) was an "I can get behind that". Obviously not a joke vote, but with no reasons. Easy to say it was "for reactions", but I won't buy that.

And this was after Sudo had voted him. Which brings me to:

For Shadow Knight's benefit:

1) My vote was not OMGUS

2) OMGUS has never been established as a scum-tell

3) You could not even clearly conclude that my second vote, that for Sudo_Nym; was not merely an extension of the random voting phase (although it happens not to be).

It is ok however, you will be forgiven as long as I see you voting Sudo_Nym in your next post

So his vote with no reason on someone who just voted him isn't OMGUS. Riiiiiight. Let's entertain that idea for a second though and go to DOOR NUMBER TWO!!! What's behind door number two? OMGUS isn't a scumtell!!! So. Why the need to say something isn't a scumtell if you don't feel you committed the act anyway? So, OMGUS? Check. Defending against a point you claim is untrue anyway? Check. Scalpal? Che-- er. wait. No scalpal. Damn.

(Btw, yes, Zazie already made the point about "Door Number 2. I see that as I read ahead.)

Next, just as I thought. The vote was NOT a jokevote. So. What Ortolan himself has told us: His vote was supposedly not OMGUS. His vote was not a joke vote. Oh, by the way, just in case it was OMGUS (which, remember, it wasn't XD), OMGUS isn't a scumtell. What Ort has not told us: Why he voted Sudo in the first place.

And to cap it off, "Shadow Knight, vote Sudo OR ELSE!!" Ok, not what he directly said. He just says SK is "forgiven" if he votes Sudo. Forgiven for what? Suspecting you? Oh wait, OMGUS isn't a scumtell. Forget that point![/sarcasm] (Wait, maybe it was Andy who he was "forgiving". Still, point stands either way)

Next, he even

says

that he was threatening Andy to basically hand over his vote. I took this as intentional scumminess for bad reasons, but a town tell originally. But on second glance, he is trying to take control. Get the game moving how he wants it to move. Try to set up a "too scummy" argument. I'm not letting that get in the way. Ort is scum.

In Ort's next few posts, he still refuses to give a reason to lynch Sudo. Basically, his argument comes down to "he's scum". And during this time, Ort does nothing else for the game. Just baselessly tell us to lynch Sudo.

Then. Empking is "100%" town? Well, with no Night 0, you only know this as scum. So thanks for scumclaiming.

I was looking for

1) the target's own reaction to being wagoned (not as important)

2) people who deliberately ignore my actions even though they are quite attention-drawing

3) people who react badly to my inherently neutral actions, especially those providing inconsistent justifications for doing so.

Bullshit. You know as well as I do that some townies will react badly to this. That makes them easy lynches to push. I think that's what you wanted.

Now he votes Andy for voting him (Ort) for being scummy? What? Isn't that a protown reaction? Voting someone who refuses to take the game seriously. But remember kids, OMGUS isn't a scumtell. :teach:. Ort already said so.

He continues on Andy for a little while and then tells me not to look for connections. Ok scum, I'll be sure not to try to find your buddies.

Not sure what to make of Goatrevolt vs Kmd at present. Could well be townie vs townie.

Making sure to address it, as you yourself said that a scummy reaction to something getting attention is not addressing it. But no solid opinions apart from that it

could

be townie on townie action.

e.g. your lynch. Hop to it guys!

Hello Zakeri, please vote Andycya

Reading is optional before voting Andycya

I thought this was an early game approach for reactions. What do you call it when it's no longer near-RVS?

Because scum have no motivation to act deliberately scummy unless they are trying to throw the game, which is against site-wide rules.

Unless they want to set up a WIFOM argument that the only reason for scum to do it is to throw the game which they'd never do. OH WAIT. YOU DID THAT. XD

Next, Ort defends Zazie's points and then asks Zazie about her opinions on Andy. Gotta redirect to the easy target now. (Btw, with Ortscum, Andy (Izzy) is likely town)

Zazie makes good points on Ort again, and he says "who do you suspect" after defending this time. Again, trying to shift Zazie's attention elsewhere. She didn't bite on your Andy redirection, so now you give her the option to go anywhere she chooses. But it seems clear that she suspects you, and rightfully so. (Btw, Ortscum makes Zazie is likely town.)

The pattern continues as Zazie makes more good points, Ort defends some more and then asks about other players, including Starbuck and Shadow Knight, at the end of each post.

Please guys, the scum are dominating the game, would you post more.

Now this is scummy. Warning, this may not be suitable for children:

Unless you're a vig, you have to vote him to get him lynched.

Also, ZazieR's rolefishing in 307 is positively hilarious

1) I fail to see fishing. It's pretty much fact that anyone who isn't a vig has to get a lynch to have their suspect killed. The only exception is an anti town role (or some other kind of killing role. Vig is most common though.)
2) Oh, wait. Ignore this. OMGUS isn't a scumtell, right?

The vote on Star could go either way. That was the direction we were heading anyway, so I have no problem with the vote itself. What I don't like is how you separate yourself from the lynch by saying she is "very" far from optimal. And then asking her to self-hammer is just weird.. You say only scum wouldn't self hammer, but why? Town should VERY rarely self-hammer. This was not a time for that.

Vote Ortolan

Extremely scummy. Needs to be lynched ASAP.

--------------------------

Also, lol at Sudo dying and Ortolan using it to set up Izzy's lynch over Zazie's.

[Shadow Knight]

Ok, first I want to apologize for my inactivity yesterday. Second, I wanted to say that I used the night to catch up. Am I the only one who feels that Orangepenguin comes across incredibly wishy washy in his posts?

[orangepenguin]

Am I the only one who feels that Orangepenguin comes across incredibly wishy washy in his posts?

Really?! It might be because I didn't post that much Day 1, but I will definitely pick up the pace Day 2.

KMD's case on ort is convincing enough for me.

vote: Ort

.

Sudo's death kind of puts a bit of a bump in my flavor claim idea - because Werewolves, you know, are often a scum faction in Mafia, so had he survived to the point where we did do a flavor claim, then he would look scummy just because of it. So I don't think it would help as much as I thought it would've, initially, is what I am trying to say.

[Goatrevolt]

I don't find that case convincing at all.

[Kmd4390]

I don't find that case convincing at all.

Do you think Ort is town?

[Goatrevolt]

I don't find that case convincing at all.

Do you think Ort is town?

I do. I think Dizzy is scum, and I don't see the two of them as scum together.

[Kmd4390]

I don't find that case convincing at all.

Do you think Ort is town?

I do. I think Dizzy is scum, and I don't see the two of them as scum together.

Hmm. Opposite opinion from mine.

Well, Ort is scum and I don't see them as partners either, so Izzy is likely town.

Oh well. I only need to convince a majority, not everyone.

[ortolan]

wall of text incoming

His vote on Sudo (in his second post) was an "I can get behind that". Obviously not a joke vote, but with no reasons. Easy to say it was "for reactions", but I won't buy that.

What do you think it was for then? Do you really think I'm that arrogant as scum that I think I can just boss people around with their votes, especially with players like you in the game? What do you think I was hoping to do after Sudo_Nym got lynched and flipped town (which I would know he was if I was scum)? Do you think I'd just get away with continually doing that for the rest of the game? Yes, my early play was for reactions, just because I did something you haven't seen me do before doesn't mean it's scummy. This applies to my comments both to Shadow Knight and Andy which you brought up.

Then. Empking is "100%" town? Well, with no Night 0, you only know this as scum. So thanks for scumclaiming.

Honestly, if I was scum the last thing I would try to do is play like I did in Past Ages at the beginning (declaring Empking town), which I'm sure you'd pick up on immediately. Don't tell me you have that little respect for my scum play . And believe me, in my experience I'm seriously good at reading Empking now, and it is helpful to get out of the way at the beginning of the game (see e.g. mod-revealed info in Lynch All Lurkers and Mushroom Kingdom 2, both large themes; although the latter is still ongoing).

- I disagree with you basically reiterating what ZazieR said, basically that justifying myself greatly is scummy. You can ask "why did you say OMGUS is a scumtell if you don't think you did it?" until you're blue in the face but it doesn't change the fact that OMGUS simply isn't a scumtell, in the original instance where it occurred the player that did it wasn't scum. So even if you establish that my vote was "OMGUS", whatever that's supposed to be, it's not scummy. I also denied that it was because it had reasons attached, plus in the scheme of things it was part of my early-game gambit anyway.

Now he votes Andy for voting him (Ort) for being scummy? What? Isn't that a protown reaction? Voting someone who refuses to take the game seriously. But remember kids, OMGUS isn't a scumtell. :teach:. Ort already said so.

Trying an early game gambit like that isn't "not taking the game seriously" at all, if anything it's taking it very seriously because you're potentially endangering your own survival by playing in an unorthodox way to catch scum reactions.

He continues on Andy for a little while and then tells me not to look for connections. Ok scum, I'll be sure not to try to find your buddies.

IIRC it was because you said you suspected I was "busing" Andy, which is pretty ridiculous. I objected to you basically interpreting an attack on someone else automatically as a bus, which has little validity unless you can point to an extra reason why it is.

Not sure what to make of Goatrevolt vs Kmd at present. Could well be townie vs townie.

Making sure to address it, as you yourself said that a scummy reaction to something getting attention is not addressing it. But no solid opinions apart from that it

could

be townie on townie action.

I said "could well be townie vs townie", because that's the impression I got. That is not just saying "could". I do not have perfect information about the game; I do not know your and Goat's alignments but the impression I got was that it was very possibly just a misconceived fight between two townies.

e.g. your lynch. Hop to it guys!

Hello Zakeri, please vote Andycya

Reading is optional before voting Andycya

I thought this was an early game approach for reactions. What do you call it when it's no longer near-RVS?

This point really doesn't make sense. If I had only "located" my gambit in the RVS, then it would have been dismissed as simply another feature of the RVS. It had to be continued beyond it to look somewhat like genuine intent otherwise no-one would have reacted to it and just dismissed it as part of the RVS.

Because scum have no motivation to act deliberately scummy unless they are trying to throw the game, which is against site-wide rules.

Unless they want to set up a WIFOM argument that the only reason for scum to do it is to throw the game which they'd never do. OH WAIT. YOU DID THAT. XD

Well it is just that, WIFOM. In my experience scum have less to gain by drawing attention to themselves at the beginning of the game than townies. Townies can afford to be mislynched more than scum can.

Next, Ort defends Zazie's points and then asks Zazie about her opinions on Andy. Gotta redirect to the easy target now. (Btw, with Ortscum, Andy (Izzy) is likely town)

I do not deny this conclusion but as I am not scum the premise is invalid.

Zazie makes good points on Ort again, and he says "who do you suspect" after defending this time. Again, trying to shift Zazie's attention elsewhere. She didn't bite on your Andy redirection, so now you give her the option to go anywhere she chooses. But it seems clear that she suspects you, and rightfully so. (Btw, Ortscum makes Zazie is likely town.)

Yes, she has said she suspects me, that much is clear. I took issue with her not looking for any other suspects, even though she should be looking for a mafia team of approximately three. I had my suspects very clearly laid out, but both she and Sudo_Nym were tunneled on me. I still think I was in the right, and they weren't justified in effectively tunneling and calling for a policy lynch on me, but we can discuss this post-game.

The pattern continues as Zazie makes more good points, Ort defends some more and then asks about other players, including Starbuck and Shadow Knight, at the end of each post.

What, are you honestly suggesting this is in any way scummy?

Please guys, the scum are dominating the game, would you post more.

Now this is scummy.

How?

Warning, this may not be suitable for children:

?

Unless you're a vig, you have to vote him to get him lynched.

Also, ZazieR's rolefishing in 307 is positively hilarious

1) I fail to see fishing. It's pretty much fact that anyone who isn't a vig has to get a lynch to have their suspect killed. The only exception is an anti town role (or some other kind of killing role. Vig is most common though.)

My point was her saying "unless you're a vig" was totally unnecessary, and possibly an attempt to subtly provoke role info.

2) Oh, wait. Ignore this. OMGUS isn't a scumtell, right?

What???

The vote on Star could go either way. That was the direction we were heading anyway, so I have no problem with the vote itself. What I don't like is how you separate yourself from the lynch by saying she is "very" far from optimal.

Um, what???? I had repeatedly said I thought she was town (which is now vindicated). Of course her lynch was suboptimal. How can you possibly take issue with me saying that? I never wanted her lynched (well until she claimed one more vote to lynch and that she could only hammer; in my experience with completed games the latter feature was only present in a scum fake-claim in Sushi Mafia; which happened after this comment).

And then asking her to self-hammer is just weird.. You say only scum wouldn't self hammer, but why? Town should VERY rarely self-hammer. This was not a time for that.

I was trying to get her to out herself as scum by refusing to self-hammer. My intentions were mistaken, as I later realised, because if she didn't one more person had to vote for her, which would necessarily give us more information. So, yes, I was mistaken. However you don't actually explain how these actions were scummy. What motivation would I have, as scum, for saying something which looks anti-town like that but doesn't actually accomplish anything beyond making people suspect me more?

Vote Ortolan

Extremely scummy. Needs to be lynched ASAP.

This is hypocritical. Part of your case against me was me making statements like this (I do not think it is a scumtell in either case, but you are being a hypocrite by attacking me for it but doing it yourself).

Also, lol at Sudo dying and Ortolan using it to set up Izzy's lynch over Zazie's.

How am I "using it to set up Izzy's lynch over Zazie's."? I always suspected Andycya/Izzy alongside Sudo_Nym. I acknowledge Sudo's flip makes ZazieR look more like she has town motivations. I also acknowledge Sudo's flip makes me look bad, because we had both been attacking one another and I found him very scummy. Also how is "wanting to lynch Izzy over Zazie" actually scummy, anyway? You are implying that Zazie is my scumbuddy, hence I don't want to lynch her, yet you earlier said that if I am scum Zazie is very likely to be town (which I agree with, if I am scum then Zazie

is

very likely to be town; however I am not).

Pretty much your whole case against me relies on the least charitable interpretation of my actions possible. You've also totally changed your tune since day one, you never once actively suspected me then; in favour of totally different people. I think you may well have realised that many people would be prepared to vote me day 1 (based on Empking's poll, for example), and thought you could push through a mislynch with ease. Also, many of your points are rehashes of what ZazieR has already said, even though you didn't even comment on them at the original time she made them. The timing of the case and the fact you really seem to be assuming I play scum far more incompetently than the evidence suggests makes me suspect it is disingenuous.

[ortolan]

Oh well. I only need to convince a majority, not everyone.

The fact that you would attempt to "convince" Goatrevolt is odd to me, didn't you spend the whole first day calling him scum, in which case he would never be "convinced" of anything you say, he could only feign it?

[Kmd4390]

Oh well. I only need to convince a majority, not everyone.

The fact that you would attempt to "convince" Goatrevolt is odd to me, didn't you spend the whole first day calling him scum, in which case he would never be "convinced" of anything you say, he could only feign it?

I called him scum early in the Day. Not the whole Day.

I'll respond to your defense tomorrow btw. I have to work tomorrow morning and it's 1:30 AM.

[Starbuck]

But you still called him scum.

[ortolan]

oh, and check out what Kmd said on the top post of this very page; while accusing me of distancing from Starbuck's mislynch (how is that any different from what I said???????????????)

[Starbuck]

The vote on Star could go either way. That was the direction we were heading anyway, so I have no problem with the vote itself. What I don't like is how you separate yourself from the lynch by saying she is "very" far from optimal.

Um, what???? I had repeatedly said I thought she was town (which is now vindicated). Of course her lynch was suboptimal. How can you possibly take issue with me saying that? I never wanted her lynched (well until she claimed one more vote to lynch and that she could only hammer; in my experience with completed games the latter feature was only present in a scum fake-claim in Sushi Mafia; which happened after this comment).

Before I was lynched I NEVER CLAIMED the second part of my role which was to need an extra vote for my lynch (8 rather than 7). I only claimed that my vote only counted when it was hammer.

I told you all that after I was lynched so you could understand what had happened. I acted like I didn't know what was going on with the voting in hopes that you guys would actually believe me (which obviously, didn't work).

And then asking her to self-hammer is just weird.. You say only scum wouldn't self hammer, but why? Town should VERY rarely self-hammer. This was not a time for that.

I was trying to get her to out herself as scum by refusing to self-hammer. My intentions were mistaken, as I later realised, because if she didn't one more person had to vote for her, which would necessarily give us more information. So, yes, I was mistaken. However you don't actually explain how these actions were scummy. What motivation would I have, as scum, for saying something which looks anti-town like that but doesn't actually accomplish anything beyond making people suspect me more?

Knowing what I claimed (that my vote only counted when it was the hammer), how is refusing to hammer myself = to being scum? I would think it to be null-tell because I really don't know anyone scum or town that would hammer themselves unless they were VI.

[ortolan]

well, it was based on the logic that your lynch was inevitable anyhow; so if you refused to hammer at that point you were obv-scum.

However, I admitted my reasoning was wrong after the fact (and, despite what Kmd says, I don't see how saying that that helps me if I am scum)

[Starbuck]

I'm willing to bet of Sudo didn't stump me. I wouldn't have been in the write up and would be "alive" right now.


But you still think that someone refusing to hammer themselves is obvscum. How so?