The Manor: Chzo Mafia (Game Over!)

[zwetschenwasser]

^this

[Setael]

Zwet, what "case" are you talking about? I don't think you know. Also, can you please detail why I'm your #1 scum choice? Your vote looks really opportunistic. If I'm vigged, when I flip town you're going to look really scummy for pushing for my vig without giving much reason and I'd hate for that to happen if you're a townie.

Lamont, you're still ignoring my argument that everything you've done you would've also done if you were scum. I still think your statement that it's my own fault if I get vigged really looked like you think I'm town.

There are no arguments against me that hold any water. No one had a problem with amished saying all signs point to no scum RB. So why is it all of a sudden scummy for me to say it? Sure, maybe there really is a multiple protect doc in a game with no scum rb. Because it's possible, I'm not nor did I ever advocate a wagon on amished.

I agree that the vig needs to be used so the game can move on. It's a huge mistake to waste it on me, but it would at least provide info for the town. hopefully people will stop assuming Lamont is auto town for getting a vig item when the same thing wouldve happens if he's scum. I think it will also get people to take a closer look at the others on my wagon (especially sironi and zwet) whose reasons for wanting me vigged are practically nonexistent and reek of opportunism.

Also, Lamont I can't figure out what question you're saying I didn't answer. Can you state it here please? Don't just give a quite number - I mafia from my phone and it's not easy to look up old posts.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Here are your attacks on Amished. You start slow and ramp it up.

Amished, I have a question for you, too. When you first claimed, why didn't you mention that your role enables you to avoid being blocked by town power roles? the way you tacked it on after really made it sound like you made it up...

---

Something is wrong with your claim. If the protection lasts until the start of the next night, how does it not apply to lynches, which happen BEFORE the next night starts.

Also, has anyone ever heard of a dr. that protects themself as well as a multitude of other people? Especially without a scum roleblocker? How is that balanced?

I'm not saying start a wagon on Amished. I'm just saying his claim is fishy and I'm not considering him confirmed town by any means.

---

The claimed powerrole being spoken of there is Amished's. Does it really make sense that a protown multiprotect doc would not be roleblocked by scum if they had the ability? Either Amished successfully protected naomi (and therefore wasn't blocked) or he's not the reason Naomi was granted an extra day.

Either the scum have no roleblocker or Amished is not really a doc. It's as simple as that. My argument was/is that a doc this overpowered + no scum roleblocker = imbalanced game.

You ignored my pointed question about this which is why I decided to vig-vote you. Could you please address the question below?

Also, has anyone ever heard of a dr. that protects themself as well as a multitude of other people? Especially without a scum roleblocker? How is that balanced?

@Setael:

Do you see here how you could be falling into a scum trap by thinking this way? On the other hand, if you are correct, how do we explain Ho living an extra day??

So what is the explanation here??

Thank you.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Also this:

You are seeking town points for doing something you would do whether you were town or scum.

I have townie points because of the fact that I 1) Protected the shell by avoiding a certain NK & 2) Gave the vig to the town when I didn't have to. Doing those two things doesn't necessarily make me town, but townie points nonetheless.

[Lamont_Cranston]

You are not playing very well at this time Set. Why is this? All of these posts have been clearly presented at least twice.

I'm trying to decide if this is a scum last ditch effort to finally present a real defense or what??

[Xtoxm]

Seteal, you dying isn't going to change my opinion of Lamont...

I think he's town cause of his actions, not because he got a vig item.

[Xtoxm]

Uhh, Lamont, what you said there has little to do with it really, from my position anyway.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Right. I'm not trying to convince anyone by that post, only to point out the truth about it. Certain people will always say "oh this could of been done by scum" which doesn't mean anything absoultely by itself, except the particular point they are referencing is not a 100% ironclad town argument (see my wiki under WIFOM).

My point is of course that town is

more likely

to have done it than scum.

[Xtoxm]

Refusing to part with the shell would have been a death sentence, so not exactly.

[dramonic]

AGH! I'm finally done with a partial read of this. God knows it was really long ><

Now, for my vote/vig-vote:

I'm not voting before the vig occurs, since the vig is going to have an effect on who I vote.

As for the vig-vote, I STRONGLY believe that we should (and shall, unless something really defining occurs) vig Setael.

His case against Lamont is ridiculously weak and he's given no decent defense for the scummier actions he's been attributed.

Among other things: sure, it was originally Amished who proposed the no MRB idea and it does sound suspicious, but you're supporting it. If we're going to vig someone over it, I'd rather have it be the one who hasn't shown a PR possibility.

Also:

Setael: Why say I should be vigged without placing a vig-vote thingy? It's not particularly suspicious to me, but why anyway?

First, if it's not suspicious, why ask about it?
Second, if it wasn't suspicious in the first place, why point back at it when I don't answer it?
Third, is there some rule I don't know about that you have to place a "vig-vote thingy?"

Why would town so blatantly avoid answering a simple question? Also, there is a rule for that third point, it's called common sense. Are you even aware how completely scummy that answer of yours was?

On a sidenote, Devastation’s quick acceptance to such a bad answer is very odd, but I’ll see about that after the vig.

Let's vig Setael

[Lamont_Cranston]

Vig Vote Tally

Deadline

:

VERY, VERY, SOON (vote now!)

Setael-7 (Lamont, Pyro, Amished, Sironi, Devastation, Zwet, Dramonic)

Devastation-3 (Stepho, Rock, Elmo)
Zwet-3 (Nyx, Pablo, Xtoxm)
Sironi-1 (Naomi)
Lamont-1 (Setael)
Pablo-1 (Tajo)

Not vig-voting scum:

AJ

"Vote early and vote often or get the rope!"

[Knight of Cydonia]

Still looking for an AJ replacement. Let me know if you find anyone.

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok, I think that we should set a 24 hour deadline from today. This will be a chance for the votes on the top three wagons to possibly shift around.

I also think Naomi & Tajo need to re-vote. If they don't I think that should be held as suspicious.

[Setael]

His case against Lamont is ridiculously weak and he's given no decent defense for the scummier actions he's been attributed.

First, her.

Second, if this is true I apologize to the town for being an easy mis-vig. I feel that I have defended against everything anyone brought up and don't really know what else I could have or can say.

I certainly agree that Amished should not be vigged or lynched. My sole argument is and always was that his role seems overpowered if there is no scum RB.

I don't really feel like there's anything I can do to stop this vig. It's based on misunderstandings and nonsensical drivel. Though I'd much prefer scum get vigged, I do think a lot of info will be gleaned once I flip town so if we're going to vig a townie, it may as well be me.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I apologize to the town for being an easy mis-vig. I feel that I have defended against everything anyone brought up and don't really know what else I could have or can say.

I certainly agree that Amished should not be vigged or lynched. My sole argument is and always was that his role seems overpowered if there is no scum RB.

I don't really feel like there's anything I can do to stop this vig. It's based on misunderstandings and nonsensical drivel. Though I'd much prefer scum get vigged, I do think a lot of info will be gleaned once I flip town so if we're going to vig a townie, it may as well be me.

Post #1652 & #1654 please.

[Pyromaniac]

Sorry if I haven't been posting recently. I haven't seen anything post worthy. Was there anything, aside from people ignoring my case against naomi?

[Pyromaniac]

PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT VOTING FOR NAOMI OR WOULD NOT BE IF THEY DID NOT WANT TO VIG SOMEONE FIRST
Please explain how the following sequences of post do not convict naomi. I may have gotten some of the post numbers wrong. Two is the most important.

1. 998, 1002, 1006, 1015, 1028, (stalling for time)
2. 1031, 1033, 1038

Reposting since it got ignored by everybody except one person.


Although purposing polices is usually bad, I have one to suggest. How about if we get to two days before deadline, we lynch the person with the most votes.IF there are two wagons that might possible go through (one at 6, the other at 5) then we will force everybody to chose between one of those two wagons. Sound good?

[Lamont_Cranston]

PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT VOTING FOR NAOMI OR WOULD NOT BE IF THEY DID NOT WANT TO VIG SOMEONE FIRST
Please explain how the following sequences of post do not convict naomi. I may have gotten some of the post numbers wrong. Two is the most important.

1. 998, 1002, 1006, 1015, 1028, (stalling for time)
2. 1031, 1033, 1038

Reposting since it got ignored by everybody except one person.


Although purposing polices is usually bad, I have one to suggest. How about if we get to two days before deadline, we lynch the person with the most votes.IF there are two wagons that might possible go through (one at 6, the other at 5) then we will force everybody to chose between one of those two wagons. Sound good?

First we have to deal with the vig. I'm proposing a 24 hr deadline from when we can get some consensus about it.

Secondly, I did not ignore your case against Naomi either; mostly they are points that I already made and agree with.

[Pyromaniac]

I wasn't talking to you when I said ignoring. Only two people who were not voting for naomi acknowledged it's existence.

[Setael]

@Setael: Do you see here how you could be falling into a scum trap by thinking this way? On the other hand, if you are correct, how do we explain Ho living an extra day??

That's the question you keep referring to? No wonder I didn't notice it. The first one is a rhetorical question, right? If not, the answer is no, obviously.

The second part I have answered a million times. I believe Amished is the reason Ho lived an extra day. If I didn't, why would I have agreed with him that there is likely no scum RB? Yes, I am wary of his claim. Yes, I believe that he protected himself and naomi and hohum and whoever else. Yes, I think it's weird that such a powerful doc exists in a game with no scum RB.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Setael: Do you see here how you could be falling into a scum trap by thinking this way? On the other hand, if you are correct, how do we explain Ho living an extra day??

That's the question you keep referring to? No wonder I didn't notice it. The first one is a rhetorical question, right? If not, the answer is no, obviously.

You don't see how the scum could plan to not roleblock Amished and then attack him over how he wasn't roleblocked??

Your reply to the second question to follow.

[Naomi_Saotome]

I'm being asked to re-vote? I'll have to go over and look at the cases for the top three candidates, I will vig vote again soon

[Lamont_Cranston]

Ok you make excellent sense here in response to my second question:

The second part I have answered a million times.

I believe Amished is the reason Ho lived an extra day

.

But that isn't what you said before, instead you blatantly contradict that logic:

Also, has anyone ever heard of a dr. that protects themself as well as a multitude of other people? Especially without a scum roleblocker? How is that balanced?

I'm not saying start a wagon on Amished.

I'm just saying his claim is fishy

and I'm not considering him confirmed town by any means. Either the scum have no roleblocker or

Amished is not really a doc.

Not only does this attack the previously established fact that Amish is a Doc (as you agreed to in your first post) but it sets up a false WIFOM where the town must choose from two false possibilities; false because the third choice was conveniently not included. This is exactly what scum would do if they wanted to lynch a self-protecting Doc.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I'm being asked to re-vote? I'll have to go over and look at the cases for the top three candidates, I will vig vote again soon

Naomi, the only reason this is being asked is because the person you are voting for has no chance of getting the most votes. It is similar to a runoff election.

[Naomi_Saotome]

Yes, but that means I'm going to have to join a wagon, for the sake of progress. I'm not happy about having to do so, but I'm not interested in voting for someone and having my vote wasted I'm here to help the town, not hinder it... Keeping my vote the way it was would be a complete waste.

With that being said:

Vig-vote: Devastation