Newbie 799 - Katana Village (Game Over!)

[GreenDude]

lol, I didn't really mean for you to help me out then, I was thinking up an idea, but I discarded it but I should have discarded that post too.

But if nureins insists on me voting on weeping, I will then.

vote:Weepingwind

I'm not going to vote "silverfang"/james because it's unfair for james since he is a replacement.

I guess I should have discarded the bad accusations. But, I'm the type that just throws everything out there. I'll be sure to focus on quality next time.

[GreenDude]

@belili: No, I she said I've never played mafia THIS WAY notice the emphasis on the THIS WAY. I'd like her tell say what she meant by THIS WAY meaning she has played before. And i don't mean to "attack" them. I just thought that with the minimal amount of information that we have, I saw a few interesting aspects.

Oops, i forget to stick in that post of mine, that the last part was ASSUMING that Belili was correct, I'm NOT saying that belili is scum but it is tough to make decisions on whether someone is scum or not. Especially such a large amount of people. But i AGREE with belili, weepingwind and james have not had a chance to say much, and the largest problem is: James is a replacement so we almost have to disregard all our evidence against silverfang.

[wickedswami]

sorry I haven't been home all day and therefore haven't posted anything. It's late now so I will read through everything again and repost tomorrow. All I want to say now is that greendude's post (post 195) sounds very defensive and he seems to be swinging around suspicions for very dumb reasons (at least in my eyes)

If I remember correctly (i'll look for it tomorrow) weeping explained to us how she had played mafia wars through mail before, so that's probably what she meant with "that way". I really see no reason why you would attack her on that.

I would also like to say that nureins seems to have a good case, with good arguments on mevorra. I'm still suspicious of belili though.
As I said, more details will come later.

I'm gone most of the day tomorrow so it might take a while before I can respond. I'm sorry for my current inactivity.

Also:

I will be gone from july 3th to 6th

, so only expect stuff from me on the 7th (I might post some stuff on the evening of the 6th, but probably won't)

[GreenDude]

I'm not saying that mevorra is NOT scum. I just pust some info out there, ALOT OF IT WAS WRONG, and I admit that and i do NOT believe that it IS true. I just put it out there. The part about how weeping said it, I agree, that post does NOT show scummyness.

[Tenchi]

Also:

I will be gone from july 3th to 6th

, so only expect stuff from me on the 7th (I might post some stuff on the evening of the 6th, but probably won't)

That will be cutting the Night Actions deadline. If you have any night actions, please make sure you submit them on time.

[GreenDude]

Oh, about post 203, I meant about weeping saying about the way she played the game. This has been verified, she played by mail before, and now it's different because she is playing on the internet.


I did not post, post 195 as a defense against mevorra, it was simply another compilement of ideas. And a discussion starter. I don't mean to draw attention away from mevorra nor am I saying that I don't believe mevorra to be or not be scum.

[GreenDude]

I posted, post 195 to show that we could be running around in circles, acusing each other of things when the scum are miles away, sipping their beer in a bar.

[pikapizza]

sigh.......

Greendude

My conclusions are that wickedswami is townie. I think so because of reasons hard to explain without writing a page of meaningless glob glob which no one would read anyway.

nureins has stated that he will read it. i will also read it. please stop avoiding the question !!

i find it curious that you believe that wickedswami is townie due to reasons that are nothing but "meaningless glob glob".

lol, I didn't really mean for you to help me out then, I was thinking up an idea, but I discarded it but I should have discarded that post too.

what kind of idea did you have that involved nureins helping you out ???

I just pust some info out there, ALOT OF IT WAS WRONG, and I admit that and i do NOT believe that it IS true. I just put it out there.

why would you intentionally place information out there that you believe is wrong ?? what are you trying to achieve by this ??

maybe this will encourage you to answer questions directly.

Vote: Greendude

Belili

Post 190: Belili thinks that pika, edmund, and nureins are town because they did not wagon him.

this is dangerous thinking. do not oversimplify the mafia's actions -- they are not always looking for cheap and easy lynches.

[James.Denholm]

Hum. I've read the thread through, but I'm not getting any scum feelings on anyone. I'll do some select analysis, mainly just things that stuck out at me during my read:

GreenDude seems to be fairly town to me, very active. I'm not sure he told us the truth when he said that this is his first mafia game, because he seems (at least, to me) to be a very good player. But I've played with someone else (A fellow named crypto, Newbie 777) who was the same. And if it is GD's first game, then all the better for him, as he'll be a very, very good player in the future. But that "test" thing that he did before is like a splinter in my mind, it does not make sense. Furthermore, it does not make sense that he would make people aware of it - I know that if I did something like that, I wouldn't explain it or anything afterwards. I'd let it slip into oblivion, so it couldn't be misinterpreted.

Belini... doesn't seem to be posting terribly much. I mean, he's seems active, and I didn't really look at the dates and times of the posts as I read through, but... Yeah. You get the idea.

Remember that we can't rule out nuriens as being scum, people. Just putting that out there.

pikapizza seems to be doing some interesting, concise analysis, which is good... But I'm not getting any feelings regarding him off that.

wickedswami was a little bit odd with the no-lynch business... And due to that, he is, in my eyes, the most scummy player here. But he is nowhere near scummy enough, in my opinion, to lynch at the moment.

I'm following you all now, so I should start to develop some much more definite gut feelings as we all go along.

[edmund.angles]

First of all, why I unvoted:
I saw the people I found the scummiest after Belili, wicked and Mevorra, join the wagon, and since I had convinced myself that Belili was scum this led to questioning my own judgement and realising I had tunnelvisioned. I still presented the case because I believe town would benifit from a clearer presentation of the case. I did not unvote right away because I believed it would prevent people from evaluating the case on it's own merits.

nureins case on Mevorra:

1. 9 min reread.
I believe Mevorra's explanaition that he meant skim for direct attacks by nureins. I find it consistent with his post before the reread/skim.
No scum signal.

2. suspicions/no suspicions:
Before the reread: suspicions strong enough to divert attention from GD.
After the reread: No suspicions, even though he found what he was looking for(on nureins).
Scum signal.

3. Theory on Belili:
Outlandish theory. I can't imagine Mevorra debating this in his head and finding it realistic. This leads me to suspect that he is not looking for the truth.
Strong scum signal.

I would like to add:

4. Scumbuddy speculation:
Mevorra was the first to speculate on scum-buddies and I consider this a scum signal. Any far-fetched speculation is bad for town because it derails scum hunting and I believe that most people would instinctively understand this.
Scum signal.

5. What would scum do?:
Both Mevorra's theories (on wicked-green and on Belili) is considering what tactics scum might use. I believe that

scum

would be much more likely to come up with stuff

scum would do

[(and misrepresent it, off course) while

town

is more likely to find stuff that

town wouldn't do

. This is because they have that perspective themselves.
Scum signal.

vote Mevorra

[Mevorra]

After reading edmund.angles post, I nearly agreed with me being scum myself!

Anyway, nureins (and thus also edmund.angles), what I think you're doing is overreading my exact words. That I used theory and suspicion as synonyms have nothing to do with hidden codes and personal interests, but simply a flawed english.

1. 9 min reread.
I believe Mevorra's explanaition that he meant skim for direct attacks by nureins. I find it consistent with his post before the reread/skim.
No scum signal.

Exactly. I'm a fast typer and I knew just about what I wanted to say, and I needed 9 minutes to rapidly read through nureins posts to make sure I wasn't mistaken. I wasn't.

2. suspicions/no suspicions:
Before the reread: suspicions strong enough to divert attention from GD.
After the reread: No suspicions, even though he found what he was looking for(on nureins).
Scum signal.

You're mistaken. If I haven't misunderstood what you and nureins base this upon, it is based on the words I've used, not the content.

3. Theory on Belili:
Outlandish theory. I can't imagine Mevorra debating this in his head and finding it realistic. This leads me to suspect that he is not looking for the truth.
Strong scum signal.

To answer if I could find this realistic, I would like to refer to a post made in the beginning of the game.

@Weeping and Mevorra: You don't need watertight cases, sligth suspicion is enough, at least in the beginning. None of us (except scum) "know" anything. If noone puts pressure on the others then mafia wins. So try to be a bit more paranoid (Like: Is he just avoiding controvercy himself by posting "helpful" comments.). It's not personal attacks, it's what we signed up for (we're all masochists).

Of course I'm trying to divert attention from myself. That's not scum behaviour!

4. Scumbuddy speculation:
Mevorra was the first to speculate on scum-buddies and I consider this a scum signal. Any far-fetched speculation is bad for town because it derails scum hunting and I believe that most people would instinctively understand this.
Scum signal.

This is my first game of mafia. I assume that if we want to win, we have to find both scum. Therefore, if we don't push both individuals AND their connections, it'll be extremely hard to find out who the other scum is.

5. What would scum do?:
Both Mevorra's theories (on wicked-green and on Belili) is considering what tactics scum might use. I believe that scum would be much more likely to come up with stuff scum would do[(and misrepresent it, off course) while town is more likely to find stuff that town wouldn't do. This is because they have that perspective themselves.
Scum signal.

If you wanna catch a bear, you have to THINK like a bear. Correct?
I find that to be able to find anyone suspicious, I have to think through their actions as if they were my own, and I were scum. It's a way to think.



I also feel that in this post I've answered nureins post, number 188.



To sum up, I can understand your suspicions concerning me. You claim my theory against Belili was just a maneuver to divert attention from myself. Well, it was. Noone wants to be lynched, townie or scum, and that includes me.
You claim I changed my theory against nureins. I disagree. The differences between my posts were based on language.

Right now, I'm not sure what to believe. Most of my attention lately has been directed to keeping myself from getting lynched, and I don't really know who to vote for right now.

Unvote

[nureins]

That I used theory and suspicion as synonyms have nothing to do with hidden codes and personal interests, but simply a flawed english.

That is not a matter of english or language. The point is that you unvoted GD considering:

a) he was townie
b) your suspicions were in other players

And you came with an (incorrect) observation on one player that you even did not consider scummy.

Only later you moved to Belili when the situation was starting to be menacing for you.

Exactly. I'm a fast typer and I knew just about what I wanted to say, and I needed 9 minutes to rapidly read through nureins posts to make sure I wasn't mistaken. I wasn't.

I will be very happy to discuss which my contributions/obvious-statements/observations you considered in that 9 min read. I invite you to disect my posts and come back with that "theory".

You're mistaken. If I haven't misunderstood what you and nureins base this upon, it is based on the words I've used, not the content.

Suspicions means what in a mafia game? Do not turn this into a linguistic debate. That is quite scummy.

[Tenchi]

It was past noon... and the Town is nowhere near into making a decision. Some were sure, some were hesitant. Only one thing was certain in their minds: one of them will die the next night.

---

VOTE COUNT

(2) GreenDude - James.Denholm, pikapizza

(2) Mevorra - nureins, edmund.angles
(1) Belili - wickedswami
(1) WeepingWind - GreenDude

Not Voting: WeepingWind, Belili, Mevorra

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch
Deadline: July 3, 2009 12:01 pm PST

[GreenDude]

ok, that is creepy! how can one of us die... mod kill??

@james: No, this is my first game, EVER. And I don't think I'm a good player, at all, I've messed my situation up a bit. And i couldn't agree more that nureins could be scum, I was reading one game, and I thought to my self, my goodness I have a feeling that ic is scum, and i was right, but even if i had the same feeling in this game, it's not that easy to take out a valuable or not player.

@pikapizza: Wow, I just realized it, I don't have anything to say that wickedswami isn't scum, it's just been a feeling, and i could be waayyy wrong. I shouldn't assume that wickedswami is townie because of my gut. This has been my first game and i've been very naïve.

[GreenDude]

OH!! I took that post too literally. I was thinking real life days.

---

Mod:

*facepalm*

[nureins]

Remember that we can't rule out nuriens as being scum, people. Just putting that out there.

Did anyone rule that out?
I have not seen any judgement on me based on my IC status, but on my play.
Do you consider me townie, neutral, scummy? Do you have something to base that impression?

And i couldn't agree more that nureins could be scum, I was reading one game, and I thought to my self, my goodness I have a feeling that ic is scum, and i was right,

but even if i had the same feeling in this game

, it's not that easy to take out a valuable or not player.

have you this feeling?
If you have it, have you observed something particularly scummy on me?

[edmund.angles]

Ok this is a response to Mevorra's response to my/nureins accusations.


3. Theory on Belili:

To answer if I could find this realistic, I would like to refer to a post made in the beginning of the game.

edmund.angles wrote:

@Weeping and Mevorra: You don't need watertight cases, sligth suspicion is enough, at least in the beginning. None of us (except scum) "know" anything. If noone puts pressure on the others then mafia wins. So try to be a bit more paranoid (Like: Is he just avoiding controvercy himself by posting "helpful" comments.). It's not personal attacks, it's what we signed up for (we're all masochists).

Realistic and watertight are not the same thing. Realistic means it could be true watertight means it is proven to be true. And of course we should evaluate if people seem to use their theories/cases to look for the truth or not.

4. Scumbuddy speculation:
There are so many possibilities, the human brain has limits. Because I instinctively felt scum-buddy speculation was a bad idea I have to consider it a scum signal, because I believe others would feel the same. nureins doesn't seem to agree with this.

5. What would scum do?:

If you wanna catch a bear, you have to THINK like a bear. Correct?

Well, if the bear moved around between humans I think it would be much more effective to see who didn't seem human than trying to think like a bear.
The first will probably take about 1 second while the second will take a life-times commitment to the study of animal cognitive science (and that's if your lucky ).

[wickedswami]

the following are all quotes from belili, They might've been taken out of conext a bit, but i'm just trying to make a statement:

Is it reasonable to assume that

the mafia team wouldn't

vote for each other? Especially if they are near-lynched. Isn't it also reasonable to assume that if 3 townies vote for 1 townie, then the mafia would join the bandwagon?

Greendude has 3 votes right now? Am I right? Well if greendude is a townie, then

the mafia could

easily bandwagon and kill him. Yet they have not. This leads me to think there are two possibilities.

Neurins - I don't have any suspicions at all with him so far.

Mainly because I am a townie (I know, only I know this)

and he could easily have bandwagoned and killed me but instead thoughtfully rebutted prior arguments.

I don't know why, but the way he says "the mafia would or could do that" makes my "spider sense" tingle. I feel like he's using this kind of talk to hide the fact that he's mafia. The same goes for when he says "i'm townie".
On the other hand I'm afraid I'm tunnelvisioning belili now. I had a hunch on him and now I see mafia-tells in everything he posts.
I'd really like to hear everyone's idea on belili ones, as thorough as possible.

more to come...

[nureins]

4. Scumbuddy speculation:
There are so many possibilities, the human brain has limits. Because I instinctively felt scum-buddy speculation was a bad idea I have to consider it a scum signal, because I believe others would feel the same. nureins doesn't seem to agree with this.

Did I give my opinion? I dont remember it indeed. If you seem interested in my opinion, I can read more carefully your accusation. It will come tomorrow with an analysis of Weeping.

[wickedswami]

@pikapizza: Wow, I just realized it, I don't have anything to say that wickedswami isn't scum, it's just been a feeling, and i could be waayyy wrong. I shouldn't assume that wickedswami is townie because of my gut. This has been my first game and i've been very naïve.

You've been going on and on about a theory and a "hole" and thousands of other reasons why you were 'sure' that I wasn't townie and now that they as you about it you crawl back again?
I really don't know what to think about this GD. You're starting to play the "naïve card" a bit too enthusiastic and you basically want us to just leave you alone because you're a newbie in the game.

I bought the new player+making mistakes stuff in the beginning of the game, but I'm starting to have my doubts about it now.


On a sidenote: I've read through all of mevorra's posts, since he's also one of the people under supicion by the town (2 votes) but I couldn't really find anything that made him look scummy to me.

I'm still keeping my vote on belili, mostly because of the way I feel when I read his posts, though I can't really put my finger on it.
I'm keeping a closer eye on GD as well though

[GreenDude]

@nureins:No, i don't have the feeling because this time i'm actually playing in this game.

@wickedswami: No, there was no theory and no "hole", and no i'm not saying to leave me alone because i'm a newb but i'm saying that both the "hole", theory, mistakes, and my assumptions were all at the same time, and now i've learned. And the ONLY reason why I have been going on and on about this is because everyone keeps bringing it up and I need to repeat myself over and over. And i never had ANY reasons why i thought you were townie. Are you keeping a closer eye on me because I was wrong when I said you were town and now you don't like how i changed my mind, because you're making it seem like it!

And also, do you mean that I was sure you were NOT or were a townie?


btw, you're post has raised my suspicions against you, even though i posted that i wasn't sure, I actually did think you were townie, but your post has changed that.

[pikapizza]

GreenDude

GD, your "answers" (or lack thereof) have done nothing but make you seem more and more suspicious.

i am deeply suspicious because i believe that

your scumhunting is fake.

it does not appear that you are genuinely concerned with finding scum....

what concerns me is that you cannot back up your statements, and more importantly,

you seem to realise this !!!

you are intentionally making weak arguments ?? why would you do this if you are town ???

post 173: i ask three straightforward questions.
(1) what were his thought processes during his initial post on wickedswami?
(2) why did he believe that wickedswami was town?
(3) why did he ask nureins for help?

post 175: nureins tells you to answer (2)

post 179: you note that this is your first game of mafia and claim i misunderstand you (and make no attempt to clear up this misunderstanding). you tell me to just drop it and move on.

post 182: i ask you again to answer the questions.

post 189:
your answer to (1): you "didn't understand the game".
your answer to (2): you declare that your reasons are a "page of meaningless glob glob", but do not answer.
no answer to (3).

post 191: nureins says he will read that page explaining the answer to (2). he asks you to answer.

post 193: you say that the page was a "joke" and (incorrectly) complain that Belili does not have to explain himself.

post 194: nureins tells you to stop playing the emotional card. he again asks you to answer.

post 195: you do not answer the question, but instead choose to post a long and tremendously flawed theory on silverfang and weepingwind. it appears you're trying to get the heat off you without actually needing to answer any questions....

post 207: i again ask you to answer (2), and (3), though slightly rephrased, and one new question.

post 213: you suddenly realise that you have no answer to (2) -- you have no reason to believe that wickedswami is town. you make no response to the other questions.

i cannot believe that a townie would show so much resistance to answering a single question, to the extent of needing to be asked FIVE times by TWO different people before finally coming to the conclusion that he had no answer !!!

he knew that he could not back up his faulty, false logic, so he ducked and avoided the question continuously. i find this a major scumtell.

not only that, but you pick and choose which questions you want to answer. note that all of my other questions have been entirely ignored by GD. i do not think that a town would have so much difficultly explaining his thought processes. it seems far more likely that he's scum caught out in a lie -- his opinions simply came out of thin air, and he knows it.



GreenDude, questions do not go away if you IGNORE them...

lol, I didn't really mean for you to help me out then, I was thinking up an idea, but I discarded it but I should have discarded that post too.

:arrow: what kind of idea did you have that involved nureins helping you out ???

I just pust some info out there, ALOT OF IT WAS WRONG, and I admit that and i do NOT believe that it IS true. I just put it out there.

:arrow: why would you intentionally place information out there that you believe is wrong ?? what are you trying to achieve by this ??

WeepingWind

it appears that she has vanished ??? where did she go? she needs to make a proper response that isn't full of nothing.

[pikapizza]

sorry, one more
:arrow: what is it about wickedswami's recent post that has suddenly made you change your mind about his scumminess?

[James.Denholm]

Interesting, I wasn't aware that I had an active vote. Oh, that would be SilverFang.

Unvote.[/u]

I honestly don't see anything scummy in GD at the current point in time.

[James.Denholm]

Whoops, that should be

Unvote: GreenDude.