Mini 807 - Save the Mafia! (Game Over!)

[ChannelDelibird]

I believe the claim. In a game where the scum probably don't know which mafia roles are in the game, Mafia Hitman would be an incredibly risky D1 claim for the scum. (however, if there's a counterclaim out there, for either Hitman or vig we should probably hear it)

No reason to lynch a claimed vig day 1.

Can we all lynch wolfram now? Thanks.

-------------------------------------------

As a side note:

basically since this is reverse mafia

No it ain't! Reverse Mafia

[qax42]

@ChannelDelibird

, #300:

Mafia Hitman would be an incredibly risky D1 claim for the scum.

It would, but he's out of options at this point. Everything he writes reeks of desperation.

No reason to lynch a claimed vig day 1.

Unless he's lying. No way to know unless someone confirms him, though. I guess I very apprehensively might agree.

Can we all lynch wolfram now? Thanks.

Re-read needed to confirm that. I'm not about to let Reckoner go that easily, though.

@Town

: I almost want to lynch him for being such an anti-town player. Town or not, he's by far the scummiest player in the game, and a scummy townie is dead weight to the town.

I see a few possibilities about this claim:
(a) It's bullshit and he's scum.
(b) It's bullshit and he's town.
(c) It's true.

(a) is a potential because he is scum and he is worried. Furthermore, the flavor dictates that he shouldn't have a gun at all.
(b) is a potential situation because he is completely out of options and is fake-claiming to try get unvotes.
(c) is a potential because it's a fairly specific claim with respect to the terminology. The Mod also might be playing mind games with us with the flavor.

As it stands, I think (a) is most likely, and (b) is least likely.

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but "Mafia Hitman" isn't the common term over mafia vigilante on this site, right?

[ChannelDelibird]

Well, "Mafia Vigilante" is not a role that has a common term, seeing as, well, y'know, they're normally

the scum

and have a nightkill anyway. Mafia Hitman, according to mikeburnfire's flash site, is a mafia guy whose kills cannot be stopped by doc protection or a roleblock.

It would, but he's out of options at this point. Everything he writes reeks of desperation.

My point is that I would definitely expect scum to claim Mafia Goon on Day 1, as that's probably the only role they would feel sure about being in the game.

[wolframnhart]

My apologizes to everyone, work kicked my butt past few days and I haven't been able to post/do much reading, I will try to catch up everything in the next couple days.

Ok, I just re-read the entire game, and I've come to the conclusion that we're basically grasping at VERY VERY thin straws here. Everything that we're accusing one another of isn't scummy behavior, but a minor contradiction. Ten we ask that person a series of ridiculous questions which, in turn, gets the person caught up in their own words. We dont have ANY solid arguments here, and I really dont think I'm the only person to notice this.

Probably the clearest thought in the entire game so far so i will

unvote

until i can get a much better read up on the pages that I have been absent on.

[My Milked Eek]

If he isn't the vig and we actually have a vig:

- the real vig should not counterclaim, but just kill him during N1. It'd be ridiculous to counterclaim a fake vig as a vig.


qax, your answers are a bit too general and not enough nuance can be made in them. There is even some (not to say a lot of) bias in the formulation of them, which shows your stance a lot more.

---

I want to hear his flavor first before giving a (more) "final" answer to your questions.

But at this very moment I'm not eager to believe the claim either. The posts before his claim, as mentioned a few times, reek of desperation. Assuming he is scum, is it unlikely that he claims vig? Given the mod flavor about the guns it is. So, some flavor please, Reckoner.

The plan somehow makes sense, I guess,

if

he was hoping to catch scum. However, the nature of the trap is the exact opposite of this. The only assumption I can see from the plan is that he is a player that is unable to see the consequences of his own plan and unable to judge the nature of his plan. This plan does not tell us anything about his alignment really, as this can both be done by stupid (no offense) town or inattentive scum.

However the reaction I got from him after I voted for him were those of a player that's getting uneasy, a bit panicky or somewhat desperate you could say. The question that arises is "is the omgus a towntell in this case or a scumtell?" Towntell being a natural reaction to accusations here. The omgus would be considered a natural reaction, however as kitty stated, it feels like he's trying to start a wagon on me. Because of this I don't think the omgus is a towntell.

A next oddity in his defense/reactions are the evasive posts. He may claim to be confused all he wants to, and he will claim that for the entire thread as coming back on that statement and claiming that he wasn't confused would be suicide, no one is going (and does so) to believe that he could not find the questions or points made throughout the thread. Although he said he has answered them (#295), he hasn't answered anything but my post (#238). Sure there's #280, but as far as I can remember, there were more posts to answer to than the one brought up there.

The next thing that peaks my interest is the appeal to emotion in post #280. First reason why it's interesting to his case is his statement that the wagon is "townladen". Secondly, it indicates his (apparant) change in suspicion towards (up until that point mainly) me and the others on his back. Thirdly it shows desperation. Which returns in post #291, by calling the wagon flimsy, the votes empty and the cases non-existing.

The refusal in #291 strengthens the weaseling observation of cdb (#273).

---

That is somewhat a summary of my thoughts on reckoner. The claim in se would be believable on D1, but the behavior of reckoner and my feelings to that behavior make me believe it's a fabricated claim made out of desperation.

>> Reckoner

I'd like to hear the following from you:

• flavor but don't quote
  
• who are your suspects at the moment
  
• any oddities among the persons on the wagon?

And add a rather elaborated "why" to all of these answers please.

Feel free to answer them or not. Also, you can answer the above summary of my thoughts if you want to.

---

I felt I needed to organize my thoughts and voice my opinion on this situation and explain or show why I don't want to unvote just yet.

And yes, I said I was going to be semi-v/la, but I got sick. So I'm not having delicious cookies at my grandmother's

This game compensates this sad loss though.

---

>> wolf

I expect an opinion on the entire reckoner situation in your next post.

[My Milked Eek]

ebwop for making some stuff clearer:

Given the mod flavor about the guns it

is

Should be:

should be

.

more posts to answer to than the

one

brought up there.

Should be:

ones

[ChannelDelibird]

If he isn't the vig and we actually have a vig:

- the real vig should not counterclaim, but just kill him during N1. It'd be ridiculous to counterclaim a fake vig as a vig.

Yes, this is correct. Shouldn't have suggested a counterclaim in my last post. >_<

[xRECKONERx]

* flavor but don't quote
- Basically, when everyone handed over their guns, I remained loyal to the mafia but didn't feel as comfortable handing my gun over like everyone else. My gun still had five bullets left over in it from the last job. So it says I'm going to deal with the anti-mafia agents the same way I deal with people in my normal job: by hunting them down.

* who are your suspects at the moment
- Hmm, I'd need to re-read before I make a decision on that. I've been so busy simply defending myself that I haven't had time to process everything.

* any oddities among the persons on the wagon?
- I don't like nohand's spot on the wagon, considering NHT's previous votes. He unvoted his random vote too quickly, then jumped over to CB and held there for awhile, then once the CB case kinda died off he quickly switched to CDB, then went the safe route and FoS'd me, only to quote himself later and upgrade it to a vote while giving the out of (If you explain yourself, I'll gladly downgrade). And since the claim, I haven't heard from him.

I need to do a full re-read now. Will also be beneficial for my night action.

[lobstermania]

Okay, I

Unvote: xRECKONERx

I believe the claim. It seems like xRECKx is just a poor player with a few any ideas (kind of like myself).

@ xRECKx: Once you start playing the game, answering questions and providing info people are likely to believe you more.

[stuntkeyboardist]

* any oddities among the persons on the wagon?
- I don't like nohand's spot on the wagon, considering NHT's previous votes. He unvoted his random vote too quickly, then jumped over to CB and held there for awhile, then once the CB case kinda died off he quickly switched to CDB, then went the safe route and FoS'd me, only to quote himself later and upgrade it to a vote while giving the out of (If you explain yourself, I'll gladly downgrade). And since the claim, I haven't heard from him.

To me, the random vote is a bit of a waste of a vote.

Then I played for a while and felt that CB was the likely suspect, as did many of us.

I later felt that CDB was a very possible suspect (and I still feel this way)

Just for note, I never said the word gladly.

The reason you havent heard from me? I had job training from 5-10 last night, then I went to a post-prom party until 5:30 this morning. I just woke up.

Now it's my turn. Fortunately for you Reckoner, I do believe your claim. I think it's far more specific than it otherwise should be if you were scum. The scum (in my experience) rarely claim power roles because it could easily back them into corners later on. Mafia Hitman just seems far too specific by name, and being a power-role wouldnt be a smart claim by you if you were scum. Let's put it this way, if you are indeed scum, we will find out for sure later due to the importance of your role. i will

unvote

, apologize and move on.

[PsychoSniper]

Vote Count:

xRECKONERx – 3 (My Milked Eek, Conspicuous_other, DeathRowKitty)
Wolframnhart – 1 (ChannelDelibird)
DeathRowKitty – 1 (CoCo)
Conspicuous_other – 1 (Wickedestjr)
qax42 – 1 (canadianbovine)


Not voting:

qax42, xRECKONERx, wolframnhart, lobstermania, nohandtyper

[xRECKONERx]

I'd like Wickedest to explain why he has his vote on C_o right now.

[qax42]

@ChannelDelibird

, #302:

Mafia Hitman, according to mikeburnfire's flash site, is a mafia guy whose kills cannot be stopped by doc protection or a roleblock.

That strengthens my case for his claim being false then, if it is a well-known term.

@My Milked Eek

, #304:

For the most part, I agree with your sentiments in this post.

qax, your answers are a bit too general and not enough nuance can be made in them. There is even some (not to say a lot of) bias in the formulation of them, which shows your stance a lot more.

I don't know what part of my post you are talking before. "not enough nuance can be made in them" also doesn't really make sense to me. What stance exactly are you talking about?

@DeathRowKitty

:

Unvote

@qax
Clearly you're annoyed (and understandably so), but especially with wolf and CoCo relatively inactive as of late, I'm not sure how safe L-1 is.

FoS qax42

Beyond annoyed, actually. Now, thankfully, I don't have to beg to get a response to something I've asked for several times already, because I have nothing left to hear from him. But that's not the point. Only four posts later you do this:

Vote: xRECKONERx

For anyone who hasn't been keeping up, that's

L-1

While I couldn't give a crap about a FoS, what concerns me here is your voting. You unvote, accuse me of putting Reckoner at L-1, and then immediately do the same. His post in between this did nothing to change my view of him—he was regurgitating the same thing over and over again.

Also, L-1 is quite similar to L-2 at this point in the game. I'd trade Reckoner for quick-hammering scum in a heartbeat.

Please explain.

@Town

:

Basically, when everyone handed over their guns, I remained loyal to the mafia but didn't feel as comfortable handing my gun over like everyone else. My gun still had five bullets left over in it from the last job. So it says I'm going to deal with the anti-mafia agents the same way I deal with people in my normal job: by hunting them down.

I don't know what to think of this. It's very...

convenient

. I'd like to hear, in particular,

@ChannelDelibird

,

@nohandedtyper

and

@lobstermania

's views on this.

@Coco

: Care to make a contribution?

I also want

@canadianbovine

to respond to my comments on his outrageous voting.

[DeathRowKitty]

While I couldn't give a crap about a FoS, what concerns me here is your voting. You unvote, accuse me of putting Reckoner at L-1, and then immediately do the same. His post in between this did nothing to change my view of him—he was regurgitating the same thing over and over again.

L-1 is a dangerous and I didn't want to chance it unless I was sure Reckoner was scum. After our inadvertent power role discussion, I was still considering the possibility he was a N0 cop and didn't want to take the chance on losing any information he might have gained. This changed after Reckoner's next post:

You know what? I just got put at L-1. I don't understand where all of this is coming from. Hey, qax, I went through and tried to pick out every last motherfucking question asked of me. Sorry I missed yours in the sea of unreadable bullshit. If you want me to answer it that much, fucking quote the question like I asked people to do a very long time ago.

When I designed my "trap" (late at night), the intention was that I would throw a vote down on wolf and judge the reactions to my reasonless vote. Gauge the responses. However, given the quick responses to it and my immediate "reveal" of the plan, I didn't have a chance to let it play out. Of course, maybe I should have, since NOW I'm at L-2 and there's no chance of me gaining any insight from this.

I wanted to let it play out... see who started voting me just because of the one scummy post, and see who actually pursued legitimate cases. Seriously though. I'd like anyone with a vote on me to actually lay down a case instead of "YOU'RE DODGING QUESTIONS!!11!1!!11!" and "NICE REASONLESS VOTE!!11!1!!11". Because my play up until then had been very conservative, and I promise you there isn't much content to any of the votes against me right now. This is the very definition of a flimsy bandwagon.

It looked to me like this post was just him completely giving up. I figured if he really was a N0 cop, if he was giving up on his defense, he would have claimed and (if wolfram was his N0 target), gotten wolfram lynched. I figured there was no longer any reason to avoid L-1 after that post.

Not that Reckoner is in danger of a lynch anymore, but

Unvote xRECKONERx

. I'm not willing to lose a town vig (town=good guys) D1 because we too quick to dismiss a claim. This being said:

I see a few possibilities about this claim:
(a) It's bullshit and he's scum.
(b) It's bullshit and he's town.
(c) It's true.

(d) He's a neutral vig.

His claim does seem pretty specific though and it's hard to ignore a D1 town vig claim...

Can we all lynch wolfram now? Thanks.

You seem a bit hasty to lynch someone. I'll look back at wolfram's posts later and see if he's worthy of my vote. Until then, (@wolframnhart): Why so obsessive about lobster?

@qax42
Why so hesitant to accept a town vig claim?

[DeathRowKitty]

EBWOP:

L-1 is

a

dangerous and I didn't want to chance it unless I was sure Reckoner was scum.

I'm not willing to lose a town vig (town=good guys) D1 because we

were

too quick to dismiss a claim.

[xRECKONERx]

I'm also rather curious about what my "five shots" thing means.
Certainly that doesn't mean that there are five scum and seven town, does it? That seems waaaaay too one-sided.

[canadianbovine]

I'm also rather curious about what my "five shots" thing means.
Certainly that doesn't mean that there are five scum and seven town, does it? That seems waaaaay too one-sided.

totally doesn't

Five shots: one night kill a night, unless a doctor is in game and blocks a kill, there should be five nights max in this game, assuming there isn't a serial killer or other killing roles.

[ChannelDelibird]

I'm also rather curious about what my "five shots" thing means.
Certainly that doesn't mean that there are five scum and seven town, does it? That seems waaaaay too one-sided.

I suspect that it is more likely to mean that the mod expects the game to last no longer than five nights. (or perhaps he was trying too hard on the flavour). Don't particularly want to play outguess-the-mod, so I think it is best to ignore it. At any rate, it shouldn't be an issue until five or six game days from now.

-----------------------------

Reckoner's recent posts regarding his claim and flavour have strongly suggested to me that he is town. I find qax's posts on the same highly suggestive of the opposite. I will not elaborate on this at this time.

FoS: qax

, considering moving my vote to him depending on wolfram's next post.

[xRECKONERx]

Oh, look. He isn't elaborating on his views either. >.>

[ChannelDelibird]

Oh, look. He isn't elaborating on his views either. >.>

Different situation. We're talking about roles and flavour here - elaboration helps scum fake claims. You were just setting a stupid trap. Be sensible.

[DeathRowKitty]

I find qax's posts on the same highly suggestive of the opposite. I will not elaborate on this at this time.

FoS: qax, considering moving my vote to him depending on wolfram's next post.

I was actually thinking the same thing. I was going to wait for qax to respond to why he's so hesitant to accept a town vig claim and gauge his response, but for now, at least I'm not the only one to find him suspicious.

[stuntkeyboardist]

Basically, when everyone handed over their guns, I remained loyal to the mafia but didn't feel as comfortable handing my gun over like everyone else. My gun still had five bullets left over in it from the last job. So it says I'm going to deal with the anti-mafia agents the same way I deal with people in my normal job: by hunting them down.

I don't know what to think of this. It's very...

convenient

. I'd like to hear, in particular,

@ChannelDelibird

,

@nohandedtyper

and

@lobstermania

's views on this.

My view, it would make sense if he's to kill once every night. I'd say that that is what the five bullets are for. If he doesnt make a kill N1, then we would have something to discuss. Like I said before, a power role claim like this is bad for scum to do because it would back them into a corner later on. This is what I mean. If that kill doesnt come, we know something is up with this claim.

I'm also rather curious about what my "five shots" thing means.
Certainly that doesn't mean that there are five scum and seven town, does it? That seems waaaaay too one-sided.

I suspect that it is more likely to mean that the mod expects the game to last no longer than five nights. (or perhaps he was trying too hard on the flavour). Don't particularly want to play outguess-the-mod, so I think it is best to ignore it. At any rate, it shouldn't be an issue until five or six game days from now.

I'm thinking the five nights thing. I dont think the mod would include a detail like this for no reason. Wasnt it clear that we all gave up our weapons? Why would one person keep theirs if not to use it? I guess we will have to wait and see though.

I was actually thinking the same thing. I was going to wait for qax to respond to why he's so hesitant to accept a town vig claim and gauge his response, but for now, at least I'm not the only one to find him suspicious.

I felt similar to this, only with post #301. I felt qax was afraid that our case on Reckoner was falling, and wanted us to vote for him anyway. Which got me to thinking, that he was trying to get us to jump the gun. Then with post 312, he was trying to enforce this position again before getting moody on the rest of us for (1) unvoting, (2) DRK for FoSing him. When he says he doesnt give a crap about the FoS, but more about the "random" change in your suspect/vote. I think it was clear though Reckoner avoided yet another questioning opportunity, making look very scummy at the time. DRK's vote was very rational. He waited until he felt was the right time to cast his vote. Whether he finds someone else suspicious or not in the meantime should make no different.

Sorry this seems a bit choppy, I'm being rushed right now, but

FoS: qak

.

[My Milked Eek]

It appears to be very credible flavor. It contains the right amount of details: not too much, but not too little either. Some people might overdo flavor when faking it, or underdo it. I don't have that feeling with this flavor.

The credibility of the flavor is contrasting heavily with what I had read in his posts and his behavior pre-flavor (as posted in that big post above) and it leaves me behind not knowing what to think of reckoner at this point. I'll come back to this later.

I also ask of those unvoting/believing his claim:
* Where do you place his pre-flavor behaviour/posts in the flavor context?

What I do know is that I've always approached vig claims with a healthy dose of criticism. I always thought it be an sk safe claim or a scum safe claim (this less than an sk claiming) and I will be weary of the next few posts of reckoner.

---

I am going to reread the thread today and tomorrow. I feel I have focused a bit too much on Reckoner the past pages and I want to take the 10-15 page mark to reread and organize my thoughts on everyone so far.

[ChannelDelibird]

Wasnt it clear that we all gave up our weapons? Why would one person keep theirs if not to use it?

Uh yeah, that's kind of his point. Him being a vig and all. O.o

[stuntkeyboardist]

CDB, I said that in response to this:

(or perhaps he was trying too hard on the flavour)

I said that because I feel that your statement here is likely not right. iow, agreeing/enforcing that he probably will be killing every night.