Mini 801- Kubrick Mafia (Over)

[ortolan]

Scum can claim vanilla townie. That is not the case here. Infinis has speciffically claimed "extra", a word that has been breadcrumbed all throughout by people I recognize to be townie. And these are the people Ort still pushes a lynch for:

Yes, scum could claim "vanilla townie" alone, in which case they would get immediately lynched. In games with "vanilla townies", the mod usually provides a copy of the vanilla role pm in the opening post so the scum know what town role pms look like. In this game that's not possible because the "vanilla" role pm contains information that would partly spoil one of the dynamics of play Empking intended if included in the opening post. Ergo, if he did not tell the scum that the "vanilla townies" are in fact not mere "vanilla townies", he would be totally screwing them over. Thus, I will repeat the question, what do you think the likelihood, if we wagon a scum to a claim, of them claiming "vanilla townie" v.s. "extra" is if they wanted a vanillla claim?

I picked up on Ash's crumbs.

And Infinis' claim definitely clears him.

Why isn't this recognized by Ort???

That reasoning is really stunningly bad abhorrent from someone with an almost 5 year old account who really should be familiar with the conventions of this site. Namely, that you don't screw over scum by not giving them crucial role information which not knowing will likely get them lynched. In fact I know for a fact Empking would avoid that because we are both playing in an ongoing game in which if you read scum were lynched because they weren't sufficiently aware of the subversion of the theme the town knew about (Mushroom Kingdom 2).

I've played other games with Cater, and he would lynch anyone that claims vanilla

Infinis

did

claim vanilla.

Also, AshMC's 280 is still unbelievably scummy, because of:

Not one as specific and accurate as Infinis. The next person to make this claim - not so credible - the first; yeah I buy it.

I already drew attention to this but I just want to stress how scummy he is. He is basically saying "well Infinis must be town because he claimed extra, which is vanilla townie, but if anyone else now claims town I won't let them off the hook.". Again, this argument is entirely invalid and in fact anti-town if scum do know the VT-extra role PM, because if Infinis is scum then he's going to let scum off the hook and more than likely try to incriminate a townie if they then go on to claim extra, which, you know, is more likely to be their role than any other. The fact that AshMC is so willing to and unskeptical of the anti-town implication of what he says if he is in fact wrong about scum not knowing the extra PM suggests he is scum. No townie would be happy to potentially let off a scumbag and then incriminate a townie, purely because the scum was wagoned to a claim

first

. Ergo he is scum.

Scum: lazarusmoth, AshMC, Infinis, with Pads a close fourth.

BloodCovenent is anti-town but town based on the claim.

[ortolan]

Scum can claim vanilla townie. That is not the case here. Infinis has speciffically claimed "extra", a word that has been breadcrumbed all throughout by people I recognize to be townie. And these are the people Ort still pushes a lynch for:

Yes, scum could claim "vanilla townie" alone, in which case they would get immediately lynched. In games with "vanilla townies", the mod usually provides a copy of the vanilla role pm in the opening post so the scum know what town role pms look like. In this game that's not possible because the "vanilla" role pm contains information that would partly spoil one of the dynamics of play Empking intended if included in the opening post. Ergo, if he did not tell the scum that the "vanilla townies" are in fact not mere "vanilla townies", he would be totally screwing them over. Thus, I will repeat the question, what do you think the likelihood, if we wagon a scum to a claim, of them claiming "vanilla townie" v.s. "extra" is if they wanted a vanillla claim?

I picked up on Ash's crumbs.

And Infinis' claim definitely clears him.

Why isn't this recognized by Ort???

That reasoning is really stunningly bad abhorrent from someone with an almost 5 year old account who really should be familiar with the conventions of this site. Namely, that you don't screw over scum by not giving them crucial role information which not knowing will likely get them lynched. In fact I know for a fact Empking would avoid that because we are both playing in an ongoing game in which if you read scum were lynched because they weren't sufficiently aware of the subversion of the theme the town knew about (Mushroom Kingdom 2).

I've played other games with Cater, and he would lynch anyone that claims vanilla

Infinis

did

claim vanilla.

Also, AshMC's 280 is still unbelievably scummy, because of:

Not one as specific and accurate as Infinis. The next person to make this claim - not so credible - the first; yeah I buy it.

I already drew attention to this but I just want to stress how scummy he is. He is basically saying "well Infinis must be town because he claimed extra, which is vanilla townie, but if anyone else now claims town I won't let them off the hook.". Again, this argument is entirely invalid and in fact anti-town if scum do know the VT-extra role PM, because if Infinis is scum then he's going to let scum off the hook and more than likely try to incriminate a townie if they then go on to claim extra, which, you know, is more likely to be their role than any other. The fact that AshMC is so willing to and unskeptical of the anti-town implication of what he says if he is in fact wrong about scum not knowing the extra PM suggests he is scum. No townie would be happy to potentially let off a scumbag and then incriminate a townie, purely because the scum was wagoned to a claim

first

. Ergo he is scum.

Scum: lazarusmoth, AshMC, Infinis, with Pads a close fourth.

BloodCovenent is anti-town but town based on the claim.

[BloodCovenent]

I've played other games with Cater, and he would lynch anyone that claims vanilla

Infinis

did

claim vanilla.

Scum: lazarusmoth, AshMC, Infinis, with Pads a close fourth.

Infinis also claimed something else,

an extra.

But Cater isn't on that list?

[muzzz]

Cateraction voted me because, according to him, I didn't immediately recognize the power-up idea as something related to the townie PM. But now he, apparently, didn't immediately recognize the name of "his" role.

I think he has some explaining to do. Although looking at his participation so far, I doubt that he'll actually respond to this.

---

@Orto: it seems you missed 292.

[Fishythefish]

I'm unconvinced by ortolan's idea that the scum likely have the VT rolename in their PM. This would be an anti-town device- it could effectively out PRs in a situation like this- anyone not recognising the VT rolename would automatically be a PR. I find this at least as unlikely as Emp leaving in something which helps confirm VTs. If he was going to publish the rolenames, surely it would just be in the first post- not the whole PM, but just the name of the role.

Right now, we have multiple people recognising the name "extra". It seems deeply likely that, if these people are genuine, all VT's are extras. In the unlikely scenario that there is a VT out there who is not an extra, they should speak up.

[muzzz]

Fishy has a point. If I read BC correctly, he didn't recognize the name "extra" as something from his PM. Rather, he recognized it as something related to the movie theme.

[ortolan]

Also @ Orto: I'm getting the impression that you'd sooner expect a fake-VT claim than a fake-power claim. This kinda implies that you believe the scum would sooner receive details about VT's than powerroles. Am I correct? And if I am, what makes you believe that?

I ignored it because it wasn't useful. Because the mod could do anything from giving them the ability to ask the mod for a fakeclaim at any time a la Tarhalindur, to giving them the vanilla townie role pm *and* telling them e.g. a character that isn't in the game etc. He might have simply said "You know the role name of vanilla townies is an extra and they've been instructed to claim Spartacus". A quick search reveals Empking has modded neither a mini normal nor a mini theme before, so we have no way of knowing. I would still like to know what people think scum are likely to claim in this game when wagoned, and what the perceived

probability

of that specific claim is compared to others.

I've played other games with Cater, and he would lynch anyone that claims vanilla

Infinis

did

claim vanilla.

Scum: lazarusmoth, AshMC, Infinis, with Pads a close fourth.

Infinis also claimed something else,

an extra.

But Cater isn't on that list?

What point are you making? Based on what you said there are many possibilities: you are wrong that Cateraction always lynches vanilla claims. Cateraction does not believe an extra counts as a vanilla townie for the purposes of this game (although I contend that if he did believe this, he would be wrong). Cateraction normally always lynches vanilla claims but doesn't want to this game because he is scum for ... reason.

I'm unconvinced by ortolan's idea that the scum likely have the VT rolename in their PM. This would be an anti-town device- it could effectively out PRs in a situation like this- anyone not recognising the VT rolename would automatically be a PR. I find this at least as unlikely as Emp leaving in something which helps confirm VTs. If he was going to publish the rolenames, surely it would just be in the first post- not the whole PM, but just the name of the role.

Uh, you mean like the way we've already (apparently) outed a power role because of something that was omitted from his pm?

Right now, we have multiple people recognising the name "extra". It seems deeply likely that, if these people are genuine, all VT's are extras.

True, but trivially so. I do not think all people with knowledge of the extra role are town.

Fishy has a point. If I read BC correctly, he didn't recognize the name "extra" as something from his PM. Rather, he recognized it as something related to the movie theme.

True, but not actually relevant to the discussion at hand as BloodCovenent's claim is currently being believed.

[cateraction]

Sorry kids, don't know what to tell you. It's been a while, forgot the name. When I was pushing the case muzz it was because of spartacus related info, not the name. It just slipped my mind.

[cateraction]

Oh, and just to clarify. I do not believe that a VT claim should derail a lynch. However, this is different because of the rolename.

[ortolan]

but that role clearly is the VT in this game

[cateraction]

But he validated it. I disagree with you that scum would know the VT rolename before it has been outed.

[ortolan]

well then,

I would still like to know what people think scum are likely to claim in this game when wagoned, and what the perceived

probability

of that specific claim is compared to others.

what do you answer to this?

[muzzz]

I ignored it because it wasn't useful. Because the mod could do anything [...]

Then let's try this without the mod part. What do you think scum would claim if bandwagoned to L-1, and why?

True, but not actually relevant to the discussion at hand as BloodCovenent's claim is currently being believed.

I didn't say that to deduce anything about BC's alignment. My point was that we can use BC to deduce what (some) townie PR's do and do not know. Believing his claim does not make that deductions less relevant.

Also, I seriously hope no one is taking BC's claim for granted. There's no direct evidence that he faked it, but neither is there any direct evidence to support his claim. The best anyone can reasonably do at this time is give him the benefit of the doubt.

Sorry kids, don't know what to tell you. It's been a while, forgot the name. When I was pushing the case muzz it was because of spartacus related info, not the name. It just slipped my mind.

It "just slipped your mind"? Even after BC bolded it in the post right above yours?

[muzzz]

@Emp: did Archon pick up his prod?

[lazarusmoth]

Do scum know the VT "extra" role PM as Ort claims? Do you agree with him that scum are in this list: lazarusmoth, AshMC, Infinis, with Pads a close fourth?

My gut and brain are telling me Ash is NOT scum; I've noticed it from the start of his breadcrumb. Other people have breadcrumbed it, and I have reason to believe they're townie as well.

If not, vote him. Simple as that. Ort is scum.

[BloodCovenent]

True, but not actually relevant to the discussion at hand as BloodCovenent's claim is currently being believed.

has anyone counter-claimed?

But, one that that I have noticed, is that orto is the only one really pushing for this lynch, and Muzz is opting for it slightly, but from my read, it looks like he would be willing to lynch anyone.

[muzzz]

I definitely wouldn't be willing to lynch anyone. Although I admit that there's currently no one who I consider obvtown.

And what lynch are you talking about, anyway? Ash? Infinis? Yourself?

---

@Fishy: are those questions rhetorical?

[ortolan]

My gut and brain are telling me Ash is NOT scum; I've noticed it from the start of his breadcrumb. Other people have breadcrumbed it, and I have reason to believe they're townie as well.

lul you insist on continually softclaiming which should make you a prime night-kill target.

What are we going to do when the next person gets wagoned to a claim and claims extra? We going to lynch them simply because Infinis happened to be the first to get wagoned to a claim?

[Infinis]

I don't know what to say Ort. What claim if any could I have made that would have made you think I'm not scum?

So if we are to believe you Ort then everyone, scum and town, got the message to claim Spartacus AND the vanilla town PM?

As to what I think a scum would claim? Well I can't say, not wanting to help scum and all that. But I ask you this, out of the entire cannon of Kubrick characters, (again not going to help lazy scum by listing them), I chose an extra? A nobody? I don't chose a character from a movie? I don't push my Spartacus claim?

So I have to wonder who is the scum team? Funny how close muzz was to lynch, L-2 and no claim. Then out of nowhere Ort makes a case on me that turns the entire town based on what? That I suggested I'd rather see scum wagon me (and then have the town pick scum off my wagon) than have a no lynch -OR- that I didn't stubbornly refuse to help town progress by avoiding choosing a wagon (consisting of who I then thought was the second most scummiest person)?

Ort, who has a misguided notion of my play, I officially give you permission to cry OMGUS to your lungs get sore.

Vote: Ort

But you saved muzz, muddied the waters enough to make people think you are honest scum hunting instead of trying to get a no lynch right before deadline and finally gaming the mod.

[Fishythefish]

I would still like to know what people think scum are likely to claim in this game when wagoned, and what the perceived

probability

of that specific claim is compared to others.

Well, from my readings of other theme games it would be standard for the scum to have one or more safe claims. I would expect them to claim one of these, with a suitable PR, if they had no knowledge of the VT rolename. If they did know the rolename, I'd expect them to claim VT. It's not all that relevant now- we know that either Infinis is scum with knowledge of the rolename, or a genuine VT. All that is relevant is how likely it is that Empking gave the scum the rolename.

What are we going to do when the next person gets wagoned to a claim and claims extra? We going to lynch them simply because Infinis happened to be the first to get wagoned to a claim?

Well, yes. Of course. Infinis gains credit because he has information which was

probably

exclusively townie information. This is no longer the case, and any other claims of extra do not hold the same weight. You are making a non-argument here.

Also, I seriously hope no one is taking BC's claim for granted. There's no direct evidence that he faked it, but neither is there any direct evidence to support his claim. The best anyone can reasonably do at this time is give him the benefit of the doubt.

Definitely. A claimed cop (or going-to-be-cop, or whatever) has to be a bad lynch for now, but there's no reason to trust BC atm.

I find it very unlikely that scum-Ash would breadcrumb his information in the way he did. I think this makes him look very good.

@ Infinis: what reference does your pm make to Spartacus, if any (paraphrasing, of course)?

[Infinis]

@ Infinis: what reference does your pm make to Spartacus, if any (paraphrasing, of course)?

That's interest ing, I might answer your question about Spartacus reference in my PM.

[ortolan]

I don't know what to say Ort. What claim if any could I have made that would have made you think I'm not scum?

Possibly doctor or something, but the point is you didn't. Plus it's not my obligation to supply situations where I would believe a claim you made and unvote you (there might not necessarily be any), it is my obligation to vote for you when you act scummy and I know/think you are scum.

As to what I think a scum would claim? Well I can't say, not wanting to help scum and all that. But I ask you this, out of the entire cannon of Kubrick characters, (again not going to help lazy scum by listing them), I chose an extra? A nobody? I don't chose a character from a movie? I don't push my Spartacus claim?

Well the reason you wouldn't push your Spartacus claim is the obvious one that someone had already claimed Spartacus (why did you make this point?) And again, your point is moot because it relies on the horrible assumption that scum don't know of extras or their role PM. Looking at it I see I no reason why a genuine extra who received the pm would assume scum wouldn't have knowledge of it, which also makes your reasoning very bad and suspect.

Then out of nowhere Ort makes a case on me that turns the entire town based on what?

The fact the whole town agrees with my logic does not mean I am scummy, in fact it implies the opposite. Sorry about that.

But you saved muzz, muddied the waters enough to make people think you are honest scum hunting instead of trying to get a no lynch right before deadline and finally gaming the mod.

The point about muzz is meaningless unless, you know, he actually flips scum and therefore it is confirmed he is scum. Making a case (which the majority of the town agrees with, i.e. it is impossible for it simply to be an all scum wagon and unlikely even to be predominantly a scum wagon) which changes the popular vote from someone of indeterminate alignment to someone else with indeterminate alignment is not scummy, end of story. You claim I tried to get a no lynch through right before deadline even though after my actions there were enough votes to get you lynched, and it is actually the people unvoting you now who are threatening a no lynch. Finally you suggest I am gaming the mod by stating I think it's very possible and even likely scum know of extras so have motivation to claim them. An example of "gaming the mod" is actually people unvoting you because they believe your claim solely in the context of the game. So three utterly terrible and also incorrect points you've made here. Those believing Infinis is townie might try to explain to my why he continually launches such illogical attacks- is he scum or just inexperienced?

Infinis gains credit because he has information which was

probably

exclusively townie information.

No. I foresee a terrible outcome to this game if Infinis somehow lives the whole way through unlynched simply because he was the "first" to claim an extra, under the (very bad) assumption town wouldn't know what the vanilla role PM equivalent is in this game.

Infinis is still extreme scum.

[ortolan]

= "very bad assumption

scum

wouldn't know what the vanilla role PM equivalent is in this game."

[muzzz]

@Infinis: answer Fishy's question.
@Orto: answer my question.

Pretty please.

[ortolan]

I am waiting for others to answer it. That was

my

question you just asked back to me, I want more than one opinion on it first.