Open 144 - Near-Vanilla - GAME OVER!

[AndyTony]

I second that -

You analogy was weak and inconsistent with your point, Khamisa.

The note he left in the open wasn't to remind himself of something someone said - - it was him being obscure about a read on another player (do you think that's something you dangle in front of other players out of the RVS?)
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And Zero? Yeah, at this time I think it would be a mislynch, I personally have a town read off of him at this point. You're free to disagree with me, but if you're intend press a contrary opinion I certainly hope you'll come baring scum evidence to back it up.

He suspected Dej of being scum because he felt Dej opted out of the game unhappy with a scum role - - - - why is it inconsistent for him to be suspicious of the player? Makes no sense to be suspicious of him for that.

[MadCrawdad]

@MCD -
You presented me with post 255 did you not?

*****In that post, I expressed the interpretation/impression I was left with. It could have been asking for clarification just as much as it could have been asking about roles - - it's a variable, and the circumstances (because of how early it happened) suggest it would be more than irresponsible and risky - - - it's far too reliant on interpretation.*****

Then there was Ceph's situation.

Circumstance is what made his scenario all the more substantial.

The circumstance was this:

A player with a meta of claiming scum under pressure (whether true or not) had pressure on him.

This is valuable to scum. The ingrediants to this valuable occurance is three things:

1. Pressure
2. Votes
3. Claim

Zero had 1 and 2 on him - - and in that circumstance,

mentioning

a role claim is asking for trouble.
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Remember, it's just my opinion (and asked for, at that)

Is your question leading, or do you just disagree with the opinion?

I agree that Ceph is a better vote than OccamR. On a few occasions, though, you've pointed out that, in your opinion, you made the 'best' case on Ceph based on possible role-fishing. If that's the case, I'm trying to figure out how OccamR's possible role-fishing made it past you without a word...especially as you've decided to FoS him, since I've brought it to your attention.

I do not believe the Cephrir lynch is inevitable; his current case is poorly reasoned. And you seem very sold on the fact that a Zer0 lynch is a mislynch.

How can you say the case on Cephrir is poorly reasoned when you haven't even been able to locate the posts people have been referring to? At least familiarize yourself with the thread. A case has been made against Ceph. You can either agree or disagree, but at least know what you're talking about first.

What's poor logic is to start a sentence with 'I can't find what you're talking about, but' and then proceed to give an opinion.

[AndyTony]

@MCD

It's exactly that - - This game had been moving rather slow and I hadn't given earlier posts proper attention until you pointed that out to me. I didn't miss the post/not read it and then make an opinion on it like Khamisa, but I certainly had an opinion (with the FOS) when you brought it to my attention parallel to Ceph's situation.

But yeah, in light of both, those are my feelings.

[ODDin]

Khamisa, you should also notice that the case on Ceph isn't based entirely on his note to self. There are inconsistencies and self-contradictions in his posts, he's been accused of role-fishing, of appealing to emotion... do you disagree with all of these and claim they're based on poor logic?
Did you even read the thread properly?

Also, Ceph, you said something about nobody defending you?..

[AndyTony]

If Ceph were (this is hypothetical) calling out for help when he made a comment about not being defended:

Was Khamisa defending him well enough before that or after?

I'll give it a look.

[Cephrir]

After, I think. And I think it hardly counts that he's "defending me" without actually having read the case, apparently. Honestly I'd rather no one at all was defending me than someone I suspect. I won't deny that she's making us look like obv scumbuddies right now. Given that I know that's 50% wrong but I still think she's scummy, anyone up for lynching her first rather than lynching me and then not lynching her when I flip town?

[hohum]

am I really still in this game or has the front page just not been updated yet?

[hohum]

it appears as if I'm still in this game. Doing a reread now!

[ODDin]

You're still in the game because yawetag didn't manage to find replacements, but if you can still be with us it'd be cool.

[Khamisa]

The note he left in the open wasn't to remind himself of something someone said - - it was him being obscure about a read on another player (do you think that's something you dangle in front of other players out of the RVS?)

Well that's how I interpreted it. A more scum related one would be someone saying "scum until proven town" then later saying "town until proven scum"

Khamisa, you should also notice that the case on Ceph isn't based entirely on his note to self. There are inconsistencies and self-contradictions in his posts, he's been accused of role-fishing, of appealing to emotion... do you disagree with all of these and claim they're based on poor logic?

I feel that Cephrir does those things quite often; sometimes he's town, sometimes he's scum.

[ODDin]

Why do you bring up the meta argument only now? Why didn't Cephrir bring it up? Can you show us games where he was role-fishing, contradicting himself and appealing to emotion while being town?

[Cephrir]

Rolefishing is a stretch and you know it. Also, I've never played with you to my knowledge Khamisa... so are you secretly putting more effort into this game than you appear to be or making things up?

@ODDin: Bringing up your own meta is scummy. And it's scummy because townies don't feel the need to do it. That said, it's possible that Khamisa has something, I really don't have a defined answer as to whether I contradict myself a lot as any alignment, can't think of any really good example except for this game. I've been accused of appealing to emotion a lot though.

[AndyTony]

Ceph, stating that "Rolefishing is stretching it and we know it" isn't going to erase any opinions.

I think everyone is primarily voting you over the note to self. I know my reason is for the circumstance by which you tried to coax Zero into digging his own grave with a role claim.

Your defenses can't be limited to "It's not that way and you know it", emotional appeals, ignorance, or throwing in the towel.

I'm more than happy to hear anything that will broaden all our scopes on the situation - - I only express wanting them to be more substantial

[Cephrir]

Speaking of throwing in the towel, why aren't I dead yet?

[ODDin]

We're waiting for replacements. hohum being back with us is great, but we still need replacements for OccamR, hewitt and The Corporation.
Personally, I don't want to lynch anyone with so many people not able to have a say on the issue.

[Kdub]

I feel that Cephrir does those things quite often; sometimes he's town, sometimes he's scum.

Also, I've never played with you to my knowledge Khamisa... so are you secretly putting more effort into this game than you appear to be or making things up?

I'd like to hear Khamisa's response to this, because either she is lying about having meta on Ceph, or she has investigated his past games, which further supports the active lurker image she has.

Mod: any word on replacements?

[Alduskkel]

Why do you think he didn't just put it in his Notes (at the top right of the page, next to Usergroups)?

Because I don't read them. The only times I've ever used that was when I wanted to write a post at Night.

Maybe if you just got into the habit of reading them... *shrug*

I'm going to be redundant here and say that Khamisa still doesn't grasp the full extent of the case on Cephrir, given that she thinks that it revolves completely around the note.

Given that I know that's 50% wrong but I still think [Khamisa]'s scummy, anyone up for lynching her first rather than lynching me and

then not lynching her when I flip town?

I don't understand the bolded part. It isn't like the case on Khamisa (active lurking) is really related to you, thus your fates aren't really intertwined.

The note he left in the open wasn't to remind himself of something someone said - - it was him being obscure about a read on another player (do you think that's something you dangle in front of other players out of the RVS?)

Well that's how I interpreted it. A more scum related one would be someone saying "scum until proven town" then later saying "town until proven scum"

I'm not really sure what you mean here. How's the second sentence related? What's your point?

Khamisa, you should also notice that the case on Ceph isn't based entirely on his note to self. There are inconsistencies and self-contradictions in his posts, he's been accused of role-fishing, of appealing to emotion... do you disagree with all of these and claim they're based on poor logic?

I feel that Cephrir does those things quite often; sometimes he's town, sometimes he's scum.

You

feel

it? What on Earth is that supposed to mean? It sounds like your gut is telling you this, not any sort of meta read on Cephrir. If it is a meta read, then please provide links where he has done similar things as Town.

[Alduskkel]

Rolefishing is a stretch and you know it.

...reasons?

@ODDin: Bringing up your own meta is scummy. And it's scummy because townies don't feel the need to do it.

Why don't Townies feel the need to do it?

I've been accused of appealing to emotion a lot though.

When, where, and as what alignment?

[Cephrir]

I don't understand the bolded part. It isn't like the case on Khamisa (active lurking) is really related to you, thus your fates aren't really intertwined.

She's making herself look like my scumbuddy. Also, D1 suspects who don't get lynched have a tendency to escape D2.

Why don't Townies feel the need to do it?

Meh, I dunno.

...reasons?

Been through this already, no one believes me, not saying it again.

When, where, and as what alignment?

I'll deal with this when I have more time. Or I'll just not because it's not going to matter. We'll see.

[AndyTony]

It would be easier to care about a single thing you say when you actually give a damn.

Have you thrown in the towel?

Stop sitting on the fence and commit.

[Khamisa]

OK, Cephrir's Metaexamples:

Mini 747, where he himself said this:

I knew people were going to find that comment scummy. Because obviously it's my job to get lynched day 1 or 2 regardless of alignment and it has to happen somehow, right?

Mafia 82

Mini 698, where he also withheld information for a bit

Open 86

Open 84

And that's about everything in the last year. They're all examples of Cephrir playing as town, most of which he's acting in a sarcastic, somewhat careless way that realizes all his mistakes. He's one of those players that doesn't change playstyle whether scum or town.

[AndyTony]

Can you elaborate on what information was held in Mini 698? In detail?

[ODDin]

I would just like to point out what Alduskkel has already said: Khamisa is horribly active lurking. She read games she wasn't in (some of them from before she even joined the site) in order to present a specific argument.
So, she's actually paying a lot of attention and she's working very hard on the game. Yet she contributes very little and only when it fits her.

This certainly makes me feel like she and ceph and scum buddies, and she's heard his plea and went on to defend him. But even if he does flip town, I'm very suspicious of Khamisa right now.

[ODDin]

EBWOP: "like she and ceph are scum buddies"

[AndyTony]

Hm. As though it's either a scumbuddy answering the calls for help, or a scum trying to secure a towny image as the person that "defended a wrongfully accused towny".

Possible.